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America and the Mirror of Rome

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posted on Mar, 20 2015 @ 04:44 PM
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What do you consider imoral behavior?
a reply to: MentorsRiddle




posted on Mar, 20 2015 @ 05:37 PM
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originally posted by: MrSpad
Comparing Rome to the US is fun but, when you that have drasticaly different cultures, governments, resources, economies, global power levels, borders, enemies, technology, histories. stratgic positions etc. It really has no basis other than something fun to do.


There is more to it than that. As the US republic was clearly taken from Rome in the form of politics and symbols and just about every way I can think of.

Some interesting points here the page is worth reading.
www.salon.com...



1 — Staggering Increase in the Cost of Elections, with Dubious Campaign Funding Sources: Our 2012 election reportedly cost $3 billion. All of it was raised from private sources – often creating the appearance, or the reality, that our leaders are beholden to special interest groups. During the late Roman Republic, elections became staggeringly expensive, with equally deplorable results. Caesar reportedly borrowed so heavily for one political campaign, he feared he would be ruined, if not elected.




2 — Politics as the Road to Personal Wealth: During the late Roman Republic period, one of the main roads to wealth was holding public office, and exploiting such positions to accumulate personal wealth. As Lessig notes: Congressman, Senators and their staffs leverage their government service to move to private sector positions – that pay three to ten times their government compensation. Given this financial arrangement, “Their focus is therefore not so much on the people who sent them to Washington. Their focus is instead on those who will make them rich.” (Republic Lost)





8 — Loss of the Spirit of Compromise: The Roman Republic, like ours, relied on a system of checks and balances. Compromise is needed for this type of system to function. In the end, the Roman Republic lost that spirit of compromise, with politics increasingly polarized between Optimates (the rich, entrenched elites) and Populares (the common people). Sound familiar? Compromise is in noticeably short supply in our own time also. For example, “There were more filibusters between 2009 and 2010 than there were in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s combined.”

As Benjamin Franklin observed, we have a Republic — but only if we can keep it.



posted on Mar, 20 2015 @ 05:45 PM
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a reply to: Char-Lee

The U.S. Government mirrors the U.K.

Two Houses Senate and Congress Commons and Lords.

Seat Of U.S. Government White HOUSE Seat Of U.K. Government White HALL



posted on Mar, 20 2015 @ 06:38 PM
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originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: Char-Lee

The U.S. Government mirrors the U.K.

Two Houses Senate and Congress Commons and Lords.

Seat Of U.S. Government White HOUSE Seat Of U.K. Government White HALL



Which mirrors Rome.



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 12:03 AM
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a reply to: MentorsRiddle

If your first argument is that theres an obvious parallel between the fall of Rome and America allowing judges to issue marriage certificates to same sex couples who want a stable monogamous partner and even raise children then youre a moron. Somewhat eloquent yet no ability to use logic at a laughable and humiliating level. Forgive me if this isnt what your vague reference meant and if thats the case im sure you can understand and forgive my reaming you. Note to everyone: this is the type of post with behavior that is ridiculous to see on a supposed intelligent forum but after seeing the effects this attitude has on kids for a decade in a professional setting, Im done letting this bull go without calling the poster out since its just plain child abuse amongst other things. I know countless psychiatric associations, doctors, counselors, social workers, etc. have determined with countless experiments and observations that theres no disorder to same sex attraction and that kids come out the same other than two recurring differences being same sex raised kids react to negative stress a bit more but in turn they are more confident, secure with themselves, and tolerant of others so its a toss up and societal influence can more than explain away these differences. Im also done with so called Christians hijacking my awesome life affirming religion by missing everything the Bible says, ill give u a bit of credit I read the Bible in English once its a joke, but I actually get what all the muslims claim regarding the hijacking of their religion. I can only assume your judging moral vs immoral is because of this. Not only have you taken a verse out of a book vaguely resembling an English account of Gods word (not only does the English mistranslate left and right, so much of the Bible is hidden in the language which in aything but Greek or Hebrew doesnt convey the allegorical information which is where it gets really mindblowing. But you also cant even get the most important tidbit in the NT in Corinthians-ish if I recall which makes your argument regarding morality obsolete, you forget (tho almost all modern Christians do, even I do and am guilty of but in this case I think I get a pass cuz Im doin it to redirect the big deception the Bible warned would come to the truth society is trying to seperate us by getting us to forget) that the sole tenant to live by as a Christian is that life as a human is to be lived loving one another, love jew, love black, love muslim, love white, love overweight, love skinny, love bigots, love hippie liberal, love gay, love transgender, love freak weirdo bullied classmate, love head cheerleader, love Russian, love American, til the day you die youre commanded to love and leave all judging if how others choose to live to the judge or its ridiculous as an attorney shouting for an objection and the court recorder shouting a decision to sustain or overrule it. The thought is absurd yet its such a gross overstepping to impersonate the judge and try and do their job that its one of the things the bad guys influence society to do but people dont step back ever and realize what theyre doing. Even if it were a heinous act (which its not) fine, well you still dont have any place to judge someone for it. The only sin we are told is unforgivable is to sin against the holy spirit. This verse is so vague and nobody has a definite answer to what it means but I go the simple route. The holy spirit is the divine spark in the human soul. So I just take it as the only thing God cant forgive is a human who would cause any pain, grief, or strife to another human. It sounds crazy but I think its just so lost a concept that this is why it seems incorrect. But maybe its that simple. Maybe this is why we have been quarantined and maybe other creatures that may be out there havent lost the ability to perceive the heavenly dimension because they have such a sense of unity and togetherness that hurting another person is so foreign it just doesnt even happen. Since the fall from grace all we know is that things were introduced to our world that ruined what should have been and theres no fixing that til its figured out and I dont think walking around like a kid in daddys shoes and oversized judges robe playing judge of our neighbors life is a likely way to move us toward an answer when its made clear were supposed to have no hand in judgement since that role is taken. Last short thought, I got thinking about this issue way back when though i didnt have gay friends, but I couldnt handle being around kids all my life and hearing about a case of an eight yr old hanging in his closet for fear of how his parents would judge him after hearing society had an issue with what he felt. That same week, my life long friends little brother raised in a "christian" conservative home told me hed just found his little brother, a great guy, hanging from the backyard tree because of the same thing. My first gay friend, a jehovas witness, told his family when he turned 14 and went to school the next morning. That day he returned home from school and his house was empty. His family moved and hid and hes still never seen them again. He was called once by a sister at 18 to see if hed repented but still cant even find them. Gays are getting married and just as i thought, I dont notice anything different. So get over it. On the other hand however, I work with kids and come accross things like these things every week cuz your anti marriage obssession IS hurting people I DO see it. Dont mean to play gay marriage champion but I will speak against child abuse and hijacking my loving mind bewilderingly awesome Lord to spearhead a behavior he told you a trillion times he aint having. Take the robe off and set down the gavel, you didnt graduate Heaven Law School which to this day only has one bar licensed grad and hes much older than you..



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 01:11 AM
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originally posted by: guitarplayer
What do you consider imoral behavior?
a reply to: MentorsRiddle



In this perspective, it is not really what the morals are that matter so much as that there be some form of moral structure or code of ethics which is collectively held.

This is the "glue" which binds a people together and creates solidarity in a society.

For it to be effective, it has to have some utilitarian focus, or consequentialism at least.

For it to be enduring, I think it should fall neither on the extreme end of the spectrum of Individualism, nor the other extreme of Collectivism, because both individualistic and social drives exist in us all, and either extreme is too hard to sustain without pushing the opposite drives into occultism and corruption.

But in any case, looking back at history to understand today doesn't mean the specific forms of human culture must be the same to end up with the same sort of consequence. It is in the basic patterns we can see repetative cycles.

That's the reason Shakespeare's works are still valid today.



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 01:13 AM
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a reply to: AlexandrosTheGreat

I really wanted to read your post, and tried three times, but that wall of text is impossible to navigate.
You might want to consider using paragraphs next time. Just a suggestion.

ETA- never mind. I got far enough to see it is widely off topic, irrelevant, and "reaming" in this sort of way is not allowed here. We're adults here.
edit on 21-3-2015 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 01:29 AM
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Reply to MentorsRiddle I agree on most of your points, you did an excellent job of articulating the main problems. What I believe is most people want to live a decent life. We want to do right. We do not have any non-corrupt leaders to lead us and be the mouth piece for the "average" person.We do not have a voice and I don't know how to change that. Every time I think there is a candidate they seem to melt way with the wind, sadly. If we could find solidarity we could have a chance. Any suggestions?



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 02:36 AM
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Isn't history filled full of people groups who started small got to large over extended themselves and fell into decadence from the proposed original lets work together and build this groupthink?

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: guitarplayer
What do you consider imoral behavior?
a reply to: MentorsRiddle



In this perspective, it is not really what the morals are that matter so much as that there be some form of moral structure or code of ethics which is collectively held.

This is the "glue" which binds a people together and creates solidarity in a society.

For it to be effective, it has to have some utilitarian focus, or consequentialism at least.

For it to be enduring, I think it should fall neither on the extreme end of the spectrum of Individualism, nor the other extreme of Collectivism, because both individualistic and social drives exist in us all, and either extreme is too hard to sustain without pushing the opposite drives into occultism and corruption.

But in any case, looking back at history to understand today doesn't mean the specific forms of human culture must be the same to end up with the same sort of consequence. It is in the basic patterns we can see repetative cycles.

That's the reason Shakespeare's works are still valid today.



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 03:33 AM
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originally posted by: guitarplayer
Isn't history filled full of people groups who started small got to large over extended themselves and fell into decadence from the proposed original lets work together and build this groupthink?


Yes. That is the reason I also suspect that a fall is inevitable. Peoples rise and fall, systems are created, reach a point of maximum efficiency and then disintegrate. This is the truth about the material and physical world, of linear space and time.

The question at this point is more- what will we do as this happens? In the past, other peoples split into smaller groups, and were able to consolidate (as Rome did), some had large groups leave and stake out a new system (as they did in America, in Australia....). I think, acknowledging this fall in process (though it is a long process) might be important at least so that some individuals can begin thinking in those terms- what will be build tomorrow? How? What will be necessary in the new construction?

Sure some will use their energy trying to save a drowning ship, but a few will be ahead of things. That is probably natural and good too- while the warriors are holding off the barbarians, they give us a bit more time to draw up blue prints and plans.



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 06:41 AM
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a reply to: MentorsRiddle

And yet despite America being such an obvious empire.

There are people who will defend this life of war death and conquest



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 11:56 AM
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We are going the way of the Western Empire. The Eastern Empire continued on for almost another thousand years. I think the adoption of Christianity did much to restore the moral values of the empire. There were other serious problems, the worst of which was the influx of non-Roman peoples, which we also see happening in America today. Like us, Rome had a large population on public assistance. The later Empire suffered from leadership instability. Like us, the later Western Empire became more consumers than producers, leading to economic weakness. The continued strength of Byzantium would have lead to a restoration of the Western half, but a plague wiped out a large percentage of the population. When the Roman Empire morphed into more of an idea than a people, it ceased to be valued.
a reply to: MentorsRiddle



posted on Mar, 21 2015 @ 03:53 PM
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Another aspect I remember hearing is about citizenship. Having a Roman citizenship was extremely valuable, as anyone who has read the Bible will no doubt recall. I believe there were even wars fought when towns under Roman rule revolted because they were not granted Roman citizenship. But I've heard that the decline of the value and privilege of having a Roman citizen mired the decline of Rome. Now, this is something I heard passing years ago, so perhaps one of the more historically-literate ATS members could correct me on this point.

In the US of A, you become a citizen if you are born within the States. It seems to me that it cannot have good effects to merely hand people a ticket to citizenship for free: it cheapens it, removes its value. And this isn't just a jab at "anchor babies" that illegal immigrants have. Citizens today have rights, but no duties. I don't think it's healthy or sustainable.



posted on Mar, 22 2015 @ 02:02 AM
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originally posted by: StalkerSolent
Another aspect I remember hearing is about citizenship. Having a Roman citizenship was extremely valuable, as anyone who has read the Bible will no doubt recall. I believe there were even wars fought when towns under Roman rule revolted because they were not granted Roman citizenship. But I've heard that the decline of the value and privilege of having a Roman citizen mired the decline of Rome. Now, this is something I heard passing years ago, so perhaps one of the more historically-literate ATS members could correct me on this point.

In the US of A, you become a citizen if you are born within the States. It seems to me that it cannot have good effects to merely hand people a ticket to citizenship for free: it cheapens it, removes its value. And this isn't just a jab at "anchor babies" that illegal immigrants have. Citizens today have rights, but no duties. I don't think it's healthy or sustainable.


Citizenship for the US is becoming de-valued now. With the FATCA laws, people are rushing to renounce citizenship. There was such a flood of it, they quadrupled the cost of the process, and made regulation which insured that even f you do so, you still have to pay taxes to the US for 20 years.
Expats living abroad, and paying taxes in their country of residence are being taxed, but also their foreign spouses, and children of Americans. Some people suddenly receiving notice never have been to the US and some were not even aware they had american nationality. (because no official filing was ever done).
Foreign banks are turning away american as result, not wanting to let them have accounts, because of the problems it causes for them.
This is a problem in the countries which do not allow wages to be paid in any other way than a direct transfer into an account (like France) .

A huge flood of people are cursing their american citizenship now It is stirring a lot of anti-american sentiment amongst American citizens abroad! If Rome had troubles because people want their citizenship, America risks having them because people DON'T want it and are having it forced upon them!



posted on Mar, 22 2015 @ 07:30 AM
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TV ! and sports.
a little like the colosseum.

people watch sport for the violents
not the skill.



posted on Mar, 22 2015 @ 08:11 AM
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a reply to: MentorsRiddle

While I agree that there are a lot of correlations between the Roman Empire and the USA, it's also important to remember that after shrinking the Roman Empire really just re-branded itself as the "Catholic Church".

It didn't end entirely, it was simply scaled back and became a cult.



posted on Mar, 22 2015 @ 09:10 AM
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originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: [post=19144506]guitarplayer

Yes. That is the reason I also suspect that a fall is inevitable. Peoples rise and fall, systems are created, reach a point of maximum efficiency and then disintegrate. This is the truth about the material and physical world, of linear space and time.


Don't know if it's relevant but technology is such a big difference. Romans didn't have the option of creating robots taking over their jobs. They probably couldn't even dream about spaceships and getting to another planet, which is what the US is striving for. Point being the US hasn't reached it's technological maximum efficiency but it is getting there.

Other than that morals are on the decline and with less people leading a stable life (long term marriage, long term job) rather than unstable (having different partners, short term jobs) society as a whole become less stable.
edit on 22-3-2015 by johnnyjoe1979 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 22 2015 @ 09:34 AM
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I love this thread. It has been on my mind for years. We have allowed hedonism and materialism to become our desires. While i love (and loathe) my smart phone, i can live without it...pooping is another story....but i still read 1-2 books a week....from the library.

I feel, and think, that we have passed the point of no return. Too many people live off the dole and would fight any change that would cause them to sweat, or miss the new will Farrell Movie, or get up at 4:30 to work like many of us need to do.

What may be even sadder is what will fill the void for the usa...religious zealots who will throw us back to the middle ages? Or is the whole world doomed for a major crash...it seems to me that it is not just the us going down this road...maybe newton was right....2066 could be the end.

Sorry this is not written better, i m in a rush today but wanted to add my two cents.



posted on Mar, 22 2015 @ 10:08 AM
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a reply to: MentorsRiddle


My goodness.....was Rome ever really a nation with family values and free of what we consider political corruption today? Seems Rome did pretty well for its self for being such a mess from the very beginning.


edit on 22-3-2015 by Logarock because: n



posted on Mar, 22 2015 @ 11:03 AM
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originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: Char-Lee

The U.S. Government mirrors the U.K.

Two Houses Senate and Congress Commons and Lords.

Seat Of U.S. Government White HOUSE Seat Of U.K. Government White HALL



Which mirrors Rome.


No it doesn't.

The British Parliamentary system was a form of government devised by The British.

en.wikipedia.org...

As for The Roman form of democracy, citizens where set into certain classes. Depending on the class individuals came into, gave them certain rights. Which included the right to vote. The Roman Empire was nowhere near a democracy.

en.wikipedia.org...




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