Putin's New "Protocols"

a reply to: DJW001

To be fair, someone did try, but I honestly found his analysis shallow.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: DJW001
This thread is dedicated to debating a claim made by pro-Putin propagandists: that the government in Kyiv is run by Nazis, and these Nazis are backed by Jews.

For the record: I'm not blaming the OP here, because the above claim has been fully made by some, so the blending of theories doesn't fall on the OP's shoulders... That said, this is a great example of how difficult it is to make a logical argument when illogical, even ridiculous "riders" are attached to otherwise demonstrable theories and evidenced probabilities.

The portion of the quote I bolded is really a slap in the face to the majority of people who have made the argument that Svoboda and their 7 members of the Ukraine's 21 member upper cabinet are, in fact, Neo Nazis. It is almost like that famous "when did you stop beating your wife" question in that it presents one hell of a trap no matter how you answer it.

Yes, I believe the evidence demonstrates that one of the primary forces behind western Ukraine's fighting against eastern Ukraine was the significant presence of national socialists born out of western Ukraine's historic siding with Nazi Germany in WWII.
Yes, I believe that having 1/3rd of their national cabinet being members of the two predominant neo-nazi parties in the Ukraine means their current government has a strong Nazi presence.
Yes, I believe that these same groups are in cahoots with the West, not because the US or EU embrace the same values, but because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and the west is desperately trying to win a propaganda war with Putin... a war which the US and EU will stoop to any depth to win.
NO, I do NOT believe this "Protocols of Zion" horsecrap.
NO, I do NOT believe the Jews are behind all of this.

The OP premise is too damn restrictive. It marginalizes the majority of Svoboda haters by attempting to also lump them in with anti-Semites. And how in the blue living hell does that even work!?!?! Yes, Neo-Nazis are a tool of THE JEW.... :rolleyes: All of the Jewish folks in Europe got together and had a meeting where they stated "Hey, here's an idea... let's install a group dedicated to killing us into power in the Ukraine! That'll show that sonuvabitch Putin, even though Putin hasn't ever said two words against us!" What's next, the Rainbow Push coalition backing David Duke's next run for US President?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

The OP premise is too damn restrictive. It marginalizes the majority of Svoboda haters by attempting to also lump them in with anti-Semites.

No, it does not. I disapprove of Svoboda, its beliefs and its activities, but I clearly am not an Anti-Semite. My OP is to draw attention to Russia's latest whispering campaign. They are floating rumors through blogs and social media that Jews are behind the Nazis in Ukraine. This allows them to portray the neo-Nazis fighting on behalf of the separatists as fighting against Nazis, while allowing the Nazis elsewhere in Europe who are sympathetic to Putin to assure themselves that Svoboda are really "fake" Nazis being run by Jews. This way Putin can have his Nazi cake and eat it too.

Once again, allow me to draw attention to this thread, which outlines Euro-Fascist and Neo-Nazi support for Putin, and his attempt to woo them for his own ends:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: burdman30ott6

This merits a separate response to avoid thread drift:

Yes, I believe the evidence demonstrates that one of the primary forces behind western Ukraine's fighting against eastern Ukraine was the significant presence of national socialists born out of western Ukraine's historic siding with Nazi Germany in WWII.

At least it explains why they have a different attitude towards the symbolism. It may not reflect a deeper embrace of the philosophy.

Yes, I believe that having 1/3rd of their national cabinet being members of the two predominant neo-nazi parties in the Ukraine means their current government has a strong Nazi presence.

They have all since resigned.

Yes, I believe that these same groups are in cahoots with the West, not because the US or EU embrace the same values, but because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and the west is desperately trying to win a propaganda war with Putin... a war which the US and EU will stoop to any depth to win.

Putin brought this all on himself. The Bush/Cheney administration was unwise to ignore the warnings of veteran State Department analysts by expanding NATO. I agree that was a mistake; Putin exemplifies Russia's somewhat paranoid attitude towards the West. Nevertheless, he should not have pushed back by interfering in the affairs of a state as large and West leaning as Ukraine.

NO, I do NOT believe this "Protocols of Zion" horsecrap.

Excellent, thank you, all though I suspect you may be in the minority among people who defend Putin's actions.

NO, I do NOT believe the Jews are behind all of this.

Once again, thank you.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And that`s four !

And let the derailing begin.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Yes, I believe the evidence demonstrates that one of the primary forces behind western Ukraine's fighting against eastern Ukraine was the significant presence of national socialists born out of western Ukraine's historic siding with Nazi Germany in WWII.

So the primary force behind Ukraine's nationalism today is rooted in the same reason many Ukrainians sided with the Nazi's to kick Russia out during WWII. They thought anybody else would be better than Stalin/Putin.

Yes, I believe that having 1/3rd of their national cabinet being members of the two predominant neo-nazi parties in the Ukraine means their current government has a strong Nazi presence.

You have now mixed 'nationalism' with neo-nazi. Congrats!

Yes, I believe that these same groups are in cahoots with the West, not because the US or EU embrace the same values, but because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and the west is desperately trying to win a propaganda war with Putin... a war which the US and EU will stoop to any depth to win.

Or the nationalists are simply taking any help they can get to win their country back. Considering the West hasn't sent in troops like Russia has it looks like one side is 'stoop' a little lower currently.

NO, I do NOT believe this "Protocols of Zion" horsecrap.
NO, I do NOT believe the Jews are behind all of this.

Whew!

The OP premise is too damn restrictive.

The problem with many threads on Ukraine is that a ton of garbage is thrown into the thread, so one way to 'debunk' issues when that keeps happening is restrict the thread to one idea.

Start a thread about Svoboda is you want open discussion about them. The stars and flags you'll get will almost crash the server I'm sure!

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

It began and ended already. A helpful mod put things back on track.

Regarding Burdman30ott6:

Thank you very much for a reasoned and thoughtful approach to the thread. We may not agree on many things but you continue to be a voice of reason among those who may lean toward Russia's view on the subject of Ukraine.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Oh NO! The Nazis are in Russia too!

Yes they are...a nice little video.



In fact they are also fighting for the separatists...

Zisels says the most powerful far-right unit is the Russian National Unity (RNU) movement, led by ultra-nationalist Aleksandr Barkashov.

Barkashov visited Ukraine twice this year, in March and May, and is currently based in Donetsk.

This paramilitary organisation, which advocates the expulsion of non-Russians from the country, was founded in 1990. Its red-and-white emblem resembles the swastika icon used by the German Nazi party in the 1930s and 1940s.

www.ibtimes.co.uk...

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
Thank you very much for a reasoned and thoughtful approach to the thread. We may not agree on many things but you continue to be a voice of reason among those who may lean toward Russia's view on the subject of Ukraine.

Personally I found his reference to Ukrainians supporting the Nazis against Stalin in WWII inflammatory. The truth of what Stalin had done to Ukrainians prior to WWII rivals the sickest leaders the world has ever seen. No surprise they would support anyone to kick Stalin out.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And that`s four !

And let the derailing begin.

It had nothing to do with derailing, it was merely pointing out towards something which has been going on, namely, "in a way too high frequency attacking blogs and other alternative media while the given information was actual legit"...this site belongs to the alternative media, and by so you should expect alternative views and links towards them, but there seems to be an attempt to shut down the alternative side of things...pretty odd on an alternative media site don`t you think ?

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Quite true, but the fact ARE facts, Ukrainians allied with Nazi's in WWII. The reasoning for it is of course white-washed and discarded in order to further an agenda, but the best we can do is bring up the reasoning for it. Unfortunately, this created a very real (though small) subset of the Ukrainian population who still sympathize with Nazi ideology today. I'm sure many of these people see Putin as Stalin 2.0 and fight for Ukraine believing they're securing yet another future free from the iron grip of the Red Bear. However, because of their ideology it becomes easy for the oppressor to demonize them.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Let's not bring up the topic of derailing. As I stated before, you intentionally posted a flimsy source knowing it would be attacked. I won't discuss the subject any further.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: noeltrotsky

Quite true, but the fact ARE facts, Ukrainians allied with Nazi's in WWII.

So did Henry Ford...what are you (rhetorical) driving?

Not to rationalise, just to point out that there are a lot of dirty hands out there.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Very good comment, seems you become an expert in Slavic issues lol

One remark though, during ww2 only a small subset of Western Ukrainians sided with Hitler, majority served in Red Army.

As a matter of fact there was also Russian Vlasov army en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Indeed there are. Well said.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

It was only a translation from the Ukrainian Pravda, but thanks again for proving what I was posting about.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Just checked Russian neo nazi site out of curiosity.

They are mocking Ukrainian neo nazi, calling them a fake and disgrace.

www.rusnation.org...

google translate

So when the "Ukrainian" disguises itself in the garb of nationalism, when the poses as a fascist, scaring the townsfolk symbols of the Third Reich - he does not become such, but remains the same "Ukrainian", that is despicable slave of non-Russians who do not have national interests. It's safe to say that the German paraphernalia for "Ukrainians" - only vulgar cargo cult. They hope to use it to hide their shameful and empty inside, consisting almost entirely of less than pathological Russophobia, in order to somehow increase - in their eyes and in the eyes of his enemies - his alleged brutality of totalitarian and masculinity. After all, these qualities, in their opinion, have the real fascists. So "Ukrainians" doing their best to overcome, even though the show, his inferiority complex, to cover his mental infantilism and political bankruptcy.

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Very good comment, seems you become an expert in Slavic issues lol

One remark though, during ww2 only a small subset of Western Ukrainians sided with Hitler, majority served in Red Army.

As a matter of fact there was also Russian Vlasov army en.wikipedia.org...

Excellent point! The number of Ukrainians who fought with Russia was much, much higher than who fought with the Nazis. Of course the 'balanced' poster who slipped that little dig into the thread didn't mention it or why people wanted to kick Stalin out.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
.... but there seems to be an attempt to shut down the alternative side of things...pretty odd on an alternative media site don`t you think ?

I don't see an attempt to shut down sources. In fact I've praised you before because you actually provide sources for your view, no matter how divergent it is from my reality. I praise you again for including sources! But I'm still going to call them out when I don't find them reasonable.

Especially 'FortRuss' !