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Here We Go Again! Body cam footage Dallas PD shoot mentally ill man

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posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:28 AM
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a reply to: PointDume

If you want to see messy, put any unarmed, untrained schlub against a blue belt or above bjj exponent. Obviously, such tactics are ineffective if you've been dumb enough to try and arrest 10 people when you are on your own, but used with discretion, it's a better tool to have in your kitbag than a gun, which any old thug could take from you and kill your sad, "incapable of defending yourself without a gun" arse with.
edit on 18-3-2015 by IvanAstikov because: (no reason given)


ps. before you say "But...but...he had a screwdriver" - that's what extending batons are for. You can't hold a screwdriver when you've just had your hand or wrist/arm cracked with a baton. Or, not if I hit you with one, you cant. Others mileage may vary.
edit on 18-3-2015 by IvanAstikov because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:29 AM
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Hands Up don't SCREW



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:30 AM
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originally posted by: Autorico
Can't get a really good look at it, wish the other officer had a cam. IMO, he shouldn't have been shot, it was a screw driver.


A screwdriver is just as deadly as a gun.

A person off their meds / suffering psychological issues can perceive pain a lot differently than someone in their right mind.

The guy had a weapon, mom called the police so obviously she felt there was a major issue.

Simple solution - comply with commands and drop the screwdrivers. If talk is the resolution to the problem then why didn't the family continue to talk to him instead of calling the police?
edit on 18-3-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:32 AM
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a reply to: IvanAstikov

If you have a gun and knife on your person and you are walking down the street, only to be approached by a man with a knife in his hand who is threatening you, what are you going to do?

Run away?
Pull your own knife and decide on a "fair fight"?
or draw your gun and end the threat towards you?



edit on 18-3-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:36 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra



A screwdriver is just as deadly as a gun.


Against a complete moron, or bed-ridden disabled person, maybe. Come at me with a screwdriver clearly on display while I've got a police issue extending baton, and I'll keep you at bay or take you out at will, depending how long I want to amuse myself.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:38 AM
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a reply to: IvanAstikov

Doesn't work that way.. You drop the screwdriver.

Any action outside of dropping the screwdriver is a deadly threat. You are also ignoring the possibility of the person being on drugs or having training in martial arts / military / etc etc etc.

Same question to you -

You are walking down the street and have a knife and gun on your person. A person comes out holding a knife and starts towards you in a threatening manner. Are you going to engage with your knife or your gun?


edit on 18-3-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:41 AM
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originally posted by: IvanAstikov
a reply to: PointDume

You can't hold a screwdriver when you've just had your hand or wrist/arm cracked with a baton. Or, not if I hit you with one, you cant. Others mileage may vary.


They don't know if he's, for example, on PCP
when they first confront him. If he legitimately attacks with a screwdriver with intent to kill, or even just maim, shooting him is a perfectly legitimate response.

My primary point is that the officers, in my personal opinion, handled the situation poorly at the outset and are at least partially responsible for the escalation.

But, if that partially informed opinion is true, that still doesn't mean they are out of control, it means they are poorly trained or psychologically ill-suited to the task.

This Dallas incident is radically different from the SWAT team that executed the indigent man at ten meters on a hillside in New Mexico (or Arizona?). That case was a clear case of reckless abuse of power, unecessary use of deadly force and probably a criminal act on the part of at least one of the officers involved.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:44 AM
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If only we had Captain Hindsight and his sidekicks Shoulda, Coulda and Woulda to help us with this crisis...



Oh wait. We've got plenty of those right here on ATS to help us out...

It's so easy to sit in your armchair watching the video, rewinding it and watching it frame by frame and dissect how the situation should have gone down...

The truth of the matter is, these cops didn't have the luxury of time. It took about 20 seconds from the moment the door opened until the poor guy is down on the ground... He knocks. A woman comes out calmly mumbling something about her son. The son follows her holding/playing with a screw driver. The next moment all hell breaks loose. We can't see the victim, but it's clear that he had to show some form of aggression for the situation to have escalated that quickly. The cop(s) had but seconds to react to the threat, and in a stressful situation like that the brain shuts down and basic human instinct kicks in: Fight or flight...

Would we even be having this conversation if the cop(s) did not shoot and one of them was stabbed or even killed? I'm guessing not, because it's never news when a cop is a victim. Does anyone ever ask "Why didn't he shoot?" when a cop is killed? The answer is no because "no-one" cares.

Did you ask yourself how you would've reacted if you were in a similar, seemingly calm situation that suddenly escalated to endanger your life? Let me guess. You would've calmly grabbed the screw driver with your Ninja reflexes and roundhouse-kicked him in one smooth motion so that everyone walked away alive and unscathed...

Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. Thank you Captain Hindsight. Another job well done.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:44 AM
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a reply to: XcathdraAs I don't live in a third-world country, I don't need to carry a gun and a knife on my person, but, should it ever occur and the circumstances you present transpire, I'd let said knifeman see my gun early and remind him there were easier ways to earn a buck, or easier victims to take out their life frustrations on. I wouldn't just shoot a man because he was walking towards me with a knife.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:44 AM
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originally posted by: IvanAstikov
a reply to: Xcathdra



A screwdriver is just as deadly as a gun.


Against a complete moron, or bed-ridden disabled person, maybe. Come at me with a screwdriver clearly on display while I've got a police issue extending baton, and I'll keep you at bay or take you out at will, depending how long I want to amuse myself.


Id take you up on that big cat.

The police could have deescalated once they saw him emerge with the screwdriver. Take the mother and walk to the front of the lawn. I didnt go to police academy, I graduated from 8th grade, but thats what should have happened.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:53 AM
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a reply to: PointDume

Law Enforcement does not have to be shot at, stabbed, attacked before they are allowed to defend themselves or others.

People are certainly entitled to their opinions however Monday morning quarterbacking on what the officer should have done is off base. People are not there and read about the incident after the fact. That usually includes information being provided to the reader that was not necessarily present / known to the officers at the time of the incident.

The goal is a peaceful resolution to the situation and getting people the help they need so everyone can go home at the end of the day. With that said when an encounter occurs where survival becomes a factor I will be going home at the end of the day.

the guy had a choice - drops the screwdrivers.


Its easy to comment on what should have happened. We have seen it with civil rights leaders and police shooting people who are unarmed. A few of them finally decided to see what it was like looking at a situation first hand through the eyes of law enforcement. It opened some eyes to say the least -

Shoot or don't shoot: Police scenarios prove eye-opening for civil rights leaders


It was a split-second decision.

A distressed man with a baby in tow was pacing back and forth in a manic state and shouting incoherently. The responding police officer calmly addressed the man in an attempt to calm him down and defuse the situation, but the man suddenly pulled an object from his side and lunged toward the officer. Instinctively, the officer raised his Taser and squeezed the trigger. It turned out the man was armed with a knife, but the "officer," who was actually the firebrand African-American activist known as Quanell X, acknowledged he would have fired whether the assailant had a knife, a spoon or an empty hand.

“I didn’t even see it,” said the leader of the Houston area Black Panther Party, who was taking part in a training scenario in an attempt to understand what police officers go through during high-pressure situations. “It could have been anything in his hand, and I still would have used force to stop him.

“It all happened so fast," he added. "You don’t know what they could have in their hand.”

Quanell, a former Nation of Islam member, is one of at least two black activists to take the police training tests. Both he and Arizona activist the Rev. Jarrett Maupin came away from the experience with a newfound understanding of the pressure on police officers, not to mention a new message for black youth who come in contact with law enforcement officers.

“I walked away with a few things,” Quanell said “Many of these officers do not have adequate training and they should not be patrolling by themselves. Having backup would stop them from being skittish and firing their weapon.

“Also, we have to teach our community that, even if you disagree with the officer, do not try to litigate with them on the spot," he added. "Live to see another day. Don’t let our pride get in the way. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up.”


Click link for remainder of article.

edit on 18-3-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:55 AM
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originally posted by: IvanAstikov
a reply to: XcathdraAs I don't live in a third-world country, I don't need to carry a gun and a knife on my person, but, should it ever occur and the circumstances you present transpire, I'd let said knifeman see my gun early and remind him there were easier ways to earn a buck, or easier victims to take out their life frustrations on. I wouldn't just shoot a man because he was walking towards me with a knife.



so you would do exactly what the cops did in this case.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:56 AM
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a reply to: msallo

So you are suggesting to use the mother to try and deescalate the situation?

Let me ask - She couldn't handle the situation to begin with, which is why the police were called. Reintroducing her to the situation places her in danger.

why do that?



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:57 AM
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a reply to: msallo




Id take you up on that big cat.


How many people have you killed with a knife? I've defended myself against one with just a rounders bat and it worked out exactly as I described. Soon as they lunged forward, I smashed the bat on their forearm, they dropped the knife. I dared them to try and pick it up, the person got the # out of Dodge. I'd defo fancy my chances if you are dumb enough to let me see your knife first.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 05:58 AM
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originally posted by: IvanAstikov
a reply to: msallo


How many people have you killed with a knife? I've defended myself against one with just a rounders bat and it worked out exactly as I described. Soon as they lunged forward, I smashed the bat on their forearm, they dropped the knife. I dared them to try and pick it up, the person got the # out of Dodge. I'd defo fancy my chances if you are dumb enough to let me see your knife first.



So your one encounter with a knife will be the exact same should you encounter the same situation again?

Out of curiosity what 2nd world nation do you live in where you carry a rounders bat around with you?
edit on 18-3-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 06:02 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Nope. Different circumstances entirely. 1. I have already been told what i am dealing with. 2. I am not alone and have a reliable, highly trained partner with me, thus giving me options other than lethal force, as long as I'm not stupid enough to put myself immediately in stabbing reach.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 06:03 AM
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originally posted by: IvanAstikov... as long as I'm not stupid enough to put myself immediately in stabbing reach.


By all means define stabbing reach.

What country do you reside in?

and no its not different... You stated you would show your gun and tell the person the outcome if they continued. The cops displayed there weapons and told the guy to drop the screwdrivers while also demonstrating the result by not complying.

You chose the exact same option as the officers did.
edit on 18-3-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 06:03 AM
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originally posted by: Gemwolf
If only we had Captain Hindsight and his sidekicks Shoulda, Coulda and Woulda to help us with this crisis...


We've got limited evidence here, but the officers did not engage in available de-escalation strategies and techniques in my opinion. The mother was out of harm's way and there was no sign of any other innocent people nearby.

Like I said in first post, we can't condemn these guys because we don't have full video coverage. But there appears to be at least a couple of seconds of opportunity for the officers to attempt to de-escalate, and they did not make this attempt.

It's at worst negligent. But I think it does show, cross-country, we need to do a better job as a society training law enforcement to de-escalate situations.

For example, in my opinion it is unarguable that the officers do not use the most effective tone of voice and control of volume to achieve the suspects compliance with the directive.

Loud and fast is not the most effective way to get someone to obey you.



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 06:03 AM
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a reply to: XcathdraI'd just took the rounders bat off my would-be assailant, I took one blow on the forearm to get in close and wrest it from him. He then ran back in his house and got a knife. That didn't go as he'd planned, either.

Next question.


edit on 18-3-2015 by IvanAstikov because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 18 2015 @ 06:05 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

I live in the UK, one of those quaint countries where they aren't over-reliant on firearms to solve societal problems..



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