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originally posted by: Semicollegiate
The free life lived in colonial America was unique in history. People from the most advanced culture in the world found themselves far from their political master. Everyday a problem had to be solved without the normal supervision and support of their fellow Europeans. Independence naturally developed from the situation.
Natural rights were discovered in the course of independent living and found to be the best morality for an independent life. No polity has philosophized a culture of freedom and then successfully fought to gain it. Only people who lived in freedom by some happy accident have fought to keep it.
Civil rights were developed in response to the controlled social environment in Europe. Civil rights assume a different economy and culture than individual rights.
The disharmony between negative rights and positive rights has mostly to do with the preferred way of life of the right's proponents.
An individualist would naturally plan for his retirement, preferably by paying off his house and business capital faster than he can do now with social security payments, mandatory health insurance and the 15 working years completely consumed in paying taxes.
Civil rights assumes that working 15 years of your life to pay taxes and nothing else is normal and various benefits gained back from that expenditure are deserved.
Ever since the first time my class in school was punished for the behavior of one student, I have been against collectivism as unjust and unable to handle details. Civil rights are based on the assumption of control by all powerful superiors and the permanence of a debt based economy, so civil rights cannot be guaranteed -- they can be lost by the political system or the economic system. And since civil rights are not based on how things are (natural) but rather on ideas about how things should be (ideological), they cannot be depended on to solve whatever problem they are meant to address.
Individuals do things, groups of individuals qua group do nothing except the sum of what each individual has done. A social system that makes planning and doing easier for the individual will be a more productive and flexible and ergonomic culture than a culture firmly requesting benefits from power.
Should this be a new thread?
originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Semicollegiate
Glad you enjoyed the Grieg ... I didn't intend it sarcastically, only humorously.
It has been said that the birth of the modern democratic republic (or republican democracy) occured during the Enlightenment, beginning perhaps with Locke and culminating in the American and French revolutions, but these ideas found purchase in older, established and proven systems of governance.
Where did we and/or the French get our ideas and structure for the republican form of government?
Civil rights are a honey trap? Perhaps.
As are are Utopian idealistic philosophies of every stripe.
Best,
The "miracle" in question consists in a simple but momentous fact: It was in Europe — and the extensions of Europe, above all, America — that human beings first achieved per capita economic growth over a long period of time. In this way, European society eluded the "Malthusian trap," enabling new tens of millions to survive and the population as a whole to escape the hopeless misery that had been the lot of the great mass of the human race in earlier times. The question is: why Europe?
....
Within this system, it was highly imprudent for any prince to attempt to infringe property rights in the manner customary elsewhere in the world. In constant rivalry with one another, princes found that outright expropriations, confiscatory taxation, and the blocking of trade did not go unpunished. The punishment was to be compelled to witness the relative economic progress of one's rivals, often through the movement of capital, and capitalists, to neighboring realms. The possibility of "exit," facilitated by geographical compactness and, especially, by cultural affinity, acted to transform the state into a "constrained predator" (Anderson 1991, 58).
mises.org...
I've tried to look at it from various perspectives, but I believe their specific perspective is that each colony-now-state was a sovereignty unto itself, and the union was for specific purposes only, enumerated within the Constitution... In other words, they did not trust each other to a certain extent, and basically agreed: This is what you cannot do to us. So in the end it does come down to federal powers vs. state powers.
" quote from Greencamp
Ultimately, I have decided that state's rights is the way to handle pretty much everything, that way has always been our saving grace.
Keep these decision at the local level, states do have their own constitutions which stand unless contested as unconstitutional. "
Yes. Which raises its own questions/problems. There are those who believe (mistakenly in my opinion) that because it is forbidden to the federal government, that it is also forbidden to the states... and those at the other end of the spectrum who believe that just because something is worthy that the federal government has the responsibility and the power to impose it on the nation. The states have always been the "laboratories" so to speak, as states implement laws or programs to benefit their populace, and other states learn from their mistakes and successes.
One of the beauties of this is that states can adapt and modify to fit the unique needs of their states and communities, with the insight and input of the people, rather than the one-size-fits-all approach of the feds, which seldom serve our best interests.
Interesting but, the opt-out solution requires expertise, diligence and ultimately vigilance to establish and maintain.
I was thinking that repealing the federal income tax and restoring senators to state appointed would cover most of that without requiring anyone to do anything. I think that would get their attention at least as well.
Why would any state government give up all its power to the central government?
originally posted by: J.B. Aloha
Interesting but, the opt-out solution requires expertise, diligence and ultimately vigilance to establish and maintain.
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
I was thinking that repealing the federal income tax and restoring senators to state appointed would cover most of that without requiring anyone to do anything. I think that would get their attention at least as well.
I have found that the 16th amendment dos not confer any new powers of taxation, and repealing it would be symbolic more than anything. I can expand, but to maintain the nice balance of law and philosophy in this thread, I would rather not diverge heavily into taxation. In essence the 16th added nothing to the powers already enumerated in the constitution; Art 1, Sec 8, Cl 3 [taxation of imports], and Art 1, Sec 8, cl 1 and 17 [Municipal Taxation of the Federal Zone for the Internal functions of government].
All it did was extend the federal zone [for the purposes of taxation] to the territories and possessions of the United States [2].
I've been giving this some thought. There is strength in numbers, and it is often more efficient and practical to pool resources for a common goal... such as law enforcement, education, road maintenance, etc. The question is determining which functions are best left to the individual and which are best handled as a whole. So much simpler said than done!
Like Ben Franklin and Tom Jefferson and William Penn and so many other founding fathers, I consider public education of the absolute paramount in healthy Republic. An educated public is an educated voting public. Further, education creates an independent, resourceful and self-sustaining people -- in other words, a strong people, who neither want nor need public assistance.
Having said that, the current state of education is a joke. But the premise is sound. We just need to fix it. Others disagree with me, and would like to see public education done away with. I just want to see it wrested from federal interference and control, handled as locally as possible to best serve that communities needs. I would like to see vocational education become more available, and I think we otherwise need to totally reform our educational system.
originally posted by: J.B. Aloha
a reply to: Semicollegiate
Why would any state government give up all its power to the central government?
A contractual promise of a benefit at the price of 'comity'. Though, 'comity' is not indicative of a full surrender of sovereignty, rather just a portion.
originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp
Money represents wealth. Check.
... and wealth is created through the natural progression of requirement, vision, effort and reverence. Uh ... check.
What is "wealth" itself then, in your terms [in a society were EVERYTHING has been privatized]?
EDIT FOR CLARITY IN BRACKETS.
originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: greencmp
So ... money represents goods which have inherent value.
I'm with you. Now, in a society where everything has been privatized, where does the money [itself, i.e. the fungible currency] come from?
E.g., A gross way of looking at my question: does each producer of goods issue their own money?
Also, if you have another moment, a quick definition of what you mean by privatized ... just a functional one.
originally posted by: J.B. Aloha
a reply to: Semicollegiate
Commerce is one of the few things the government can constitutionally regulate amongst the states of the Union and within the United States [1].
I will be more specific in what benefits I am referring to: Education monies, social insurances, and other franchises of that type.
originally posted by: links234
Maybe I'm missing your point but, why can't we have both, equally? We have our natural rights that are equal to our civil rights.
Is there anything specifically preventing the government, as an extension of the people, from declaring additional rights that are outside the purview of 'natural' rights?' I was under the impression that this was declared in the 10th amendment.
Finally, we are a democracy. You clearly understand that we elect our representatives democratically which is the definition of a democracy. Power vested to the people who rule through freely elected representatives. We, the people, furthered that through the 17th amendment. We don't have national votes on individual laws because we give that specific power to our representatives. But this nation is a democracy nonetheless.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
Alexis de Tocqueville
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