What will happen to Christianity when we finally confirm ET?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Why dismiss one chapter?

Should we take it out altogether from the Christian Bible?

EloHIM is always plural...EloHEINU is singular.

no it is not, It is used in both the singular and plural... EloHEINU simply means "our God"

Elohim and Yaweh....both mentioned in the same verse, two different words. You have just proven that Elohim is plural, because Yaweh is mentioned by name, in the same verse.

yet you just said Yaweh is not a name... which you are correct, but it means I AM that I AM... Yod Heh Vav Heh

Not WE... a singular God not a triune God

Yaweh (I AM) thy EloHIM (plural) said to keep Shabbos where I AM chooses. In other words, in the multiplicity of gods, he is simply saying that Yaweh (I AM) is the God that they will follow, even though Elohim is the unifying God, they just simplified it to I AM.

Which is a Christian understanding of something that isn't there... Elohim is used in the singular in that instance, as I've said its NOT only plural... It does not say "I AM thy Gods said to keep Shabbos"

The Complete Word Study Old Testament further states, "Elohim; this masc. noun is pl. in form but it has both sing. and pl. uses. In a pl. sense it refers to rulers or judges with divine connections (Ex. 21:6); pagan gods (Ex. 18:11; Ps. 88:8); and probably angels (Ps. 8:5; 97:7)…In the sing. sense it is used of a god or a goddess (1 Sam. 5:7; 2 Kgs. 18:34); a man in a position like a god (Ex. 7:1); God (Deut. 7:9; Ezra 1:3; Is. 45:18 and many other passages

Just because you seem to believe its only plural, certainly does not make it true... in fact its just wrong... the word is used in both singular and plural... and remains an extremely weak argument for a trinity considering Judaism does not believe in any trinity

Really, elohim is plural, the plurality is known throughout Torah and Abraham saw three men as one.

Yes It can be used as a plural, but again for the umpteenth time... its used as both a singular and a plural

The Israelites did not worship a triune God... The Hebrews do not recognise a triune God in any sense of the word

Jesus did not recognise a triune God... Neither did his followers or his apostles...

Paul did not recognise a triune God... None of them did, no matter how much you want to read into the trinity the fact is it is absent from both the OT and the NT... save two passages in the new testament which are proven to be forgeries

It doesn't matter to me, you can hold tight to your trinity... but how you can when its obvious Jesus did not worship a trinity... Nor did anyone else from that time

that my friend is beyond me...

The discovery of extraterrestrial life will cause a whole bunch of Christians to either want to commit suicide to start proclaiming "Bobby Bouchere, science is the devil!" and consider these newly discovered life forms to be "demons" or whatever else they call something that can't be explained by scripture. It will be fun to see...from a safe distance that is.

originally posted by: Akragon

The Israelites did not worship a triune God... The Hebrews do not recognise a triune God in any sense of the word

Yeah, that's (probably) not entirely true. The idea of a triune God (probably) had already entered into Jewish thought prior to Jesus' birth.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

Then as the bible relates they were dabbling into the false gods of the day, faithful Israelites worshiped one God only.
There is no mention of any form of even a duality being worshiped by loyal Jews.
There were some really bad Kings leading Israel, and archaeology reveals that after their return from Babylonian exile interfaith ceased.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Sorry let me correct myself...

Its not beyond me, I know exactly why Christians worship a trinity despite the absence of it in their holy book...

Same reason as anything else that is wrong with Christianity...

The church says its true... despite all evidence to the contrary

insert your favorite denominational flavor as needed

a reply to: Akragon
I think the worlds organized religions will take a slow Hollywood approach to the subject of ET VS God issue and just ooze it into the collective mind through movies books and television. Then when something they think they can control pops up they officiate it, stamp it approved and tada...we have a new universal religion like the CATHOLIC church was.....

The judeo-christian dynamic will be replaced with a more global mix of many religions bringing with it all the benefits that the west enjoys from embracing the Judeo-christian foundation to society. The east is not as powerful as the west because it is fractured. The west shares a common thread, so things are more united in its areas of influence.

The new global universal religion will probably represent the first real empire on earth, one to hold a global influence and one to take the lead in our expansion as a species.

Anyone left behind clinging to a single ancient dogma will eventually die off like countless sects that once held great power and influence over countless peoples throughout history.


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You know what would be a cool sci fi movie to prep humanity for ET in the question of organized religion or spirituality even?

A space crusade. A space opera where humanity becomes a force of zealot crusaders into space. The vastness is not enough for our version of expansion...but rather the conquest and conversion of species we meet. THEN, have an informal and organic spirituality combat the forces of organized human religion for a universal spirituality of many species.

Make a messiah for humanity that is followed by a universal spirituality of a school of messiahs from many worlds.

Make the Jesus /Mohamed /Buddha, thread a common occurrence off world as well.

You can have the main characters quote and get inspired by Jesus and other prophets, messiahs, and holy people from many worlds including earth....all together. Then have ceremonial scenes of different off world religions and throw in some traditional Catholic , Muslim, Jewish, and a mix of eastern practices as aspects of a newly forming free and universal spirituality across many worlds.

What can carry the story as the relentless antagonist is our darkest aspects of organized religion. These characteristics can take the form of an impossible enemy, a fanatical human force of imperial conquest, conversion and corruption of all sentient life. The crusading humans into the stars....stifling universal spirituality through honor-less wars that pit against themselves all honorable beings who were made to fight for the perpetuation of the justified ignorance of the masses. All this being done so as to grant dominion over them all to a few delusional humans in a sacred city of a dark empire.....BUT IN SPACE!..lol

That should give the subject some presence in the mind of most people thus avoiding shock rioting /societal implosion. It will really just be about buying organized religion enough time to adapt to the new reorganization of power globally.

originally posted by: Develo
You have to be American, right?

Tu Quoque

Only an American can be as biased as to believe Christian creationism is something important outside the borders of the US.

Do I have to ask yet again for you to substantiate Creationism is a US phenomenon?? I have literally asked in the most straightforward of fashion for you to substantiate your many claims and you have yet to... Wonder why that is.

Only an American would quote Pius XII

Actually most of that wasn't a quote from him. Quite obvious. Are you being obtuse on purpose?

I was satisfying your request/allegation that my quotes were not existent.

My quotes demonstrate that Catholic .com disagrees with you. I think that upsets you as it undermines the heart of your argument.

Only an American would doubt Christian fundamentalism is 100% a protestant thing (but Protestantism isn't 100% fundamentalist,

Right. Catholics 100% of the time adhere to their 'expectations' but Protestants don't adhere to their 'expectations' 100% of the time. That's definitely not bias on your part.

contrarily to the lie you posted about what I said earlier).

Explain. What progress can be made with accusations absent of explanation? Preferable that explanation will be more than your regular conjecture.

the truth is you have no idea what Christians worldwide believe in. You simply assume.

Naturally I am guilty of this and you are not, right?? Do you need me to post how many times you said "Most Christians.."?

I am the one who said this! And I quote myself verbatim!

"Realistically we can't know the minds of every Christians and how they view Genesis and the bible as a whole. Whether they are Catholic or Protestant. We can make the educated guess that a majority of catholic and protestants will adhere to the expectations of their belief, but that's all it is... an educated guess. "

You are the one claiming 100% of fundamentalist is protestant thing! You are the one claiming knowledge of their minds. Not me. The hypocrisy here is astounding.

You assume from the fundies you met in the US. You assume from the fundies you read online. You assume from your own preconceptions about Christians.

Your assumption is grounded in what? How does it differ from mine exactly? Is yours not an amalgamation of local experience and that of online exposure, etc??

If you actually TALKED with Christians outside the US you would see how wrong you are.

I have been. I am doing that. Suggesting ATS alone doesn't facilitate that shows your bias and irrationality.

I talked to Christians from dozens of countries so far, and I have NEVER met someone believing genesis is an historical account besides in the US.

Wait so your personal experience is valid but mine is not? How does that work exactly?

If 50% of Americans is in any way representative of the world to you

...the question was what percentage of ATS's Christian member-base is American, not what percentage of ATS is American. There is a difference there.

None of that ultimately matters! You have said that fundamentalist is a protestant thing, that traditionally it's expected of them. As I showed, protestants exist globally, and in fact the USA isn't even the largest home of protestants. I showed that. 37.6% of Christendom belongs to a denomination you yourself have said is primarily fundamentalist.

I enjoy discussing with smart people...

Again. Sorry to disappoint you.

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101
a reply to: Akragon

Oooooo, the stereotyping is strong with this thread. 10/10

But I'm curious why bash on Christians only? Why didn't you group all the Abrahamic faiths together and ask them the same thing?? After all there are many more hundreds of millions among the Muslim faith too.


If your going to make statements about how ET doesn't fit in with the Bible's teachings, then use some Bible scripture and quote some verses to add some meaning to your claims...

Yes Adam was the first MAN, god created, not the first CREATION, and I don't see anywhere that the Christian God has explicitly said... '' Oh btw , you guys are the only ones living in this universe so consider yourself lucky''

Quoting my OP...

Extra terrestrial life is not compatible with Christianity...

The belief that all life in the universe started here is fundamental to Christian belief structure...

Fundamentalism is a disease in religion of all kinds... and needs to be wiped off this planet with love and truth...

a reply to: tadaman

You know what would be a cool sci fi movie to prep humanity for ET in the question of organized religion or spirituality even?

I know that movie...

its called "reality: the world we live in today"

Double post. Gah.

a reply to: WarminIndy

While you two are arguing about how many Fundamental Christians there are in the US

That precisely has not been my argument but his.

, there are definitely some Fundamental Christians around the world.

Thank you also for supporting my argument. I hope you will aid me in that point should there be further discussion on the matter.

Christianity is diverse, but to say that Fundamentalism is an American construct, that's a pretty big stretch.

I agree completely. Again, not my argument, but his.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

Because (he said) fundamentalism is primarily an American phenomena. If he's right about that, then one *should* only frame it within a US context

IF. If indeed. Yet to be substantiated. Will you do so for him?

From what I've seen, ATS is nowhere near a representative sampling of Christians.

He focused on ATS not me. He’s doing so to derail my points. I merely gave ATS as one example of experience. Am I saying one could draw from ATS alone what Christendom thinks on any matter? Of course not. Nor have I said anything along those lines. In fact I have clarified otherwise.

he didn't equate Protestants to fundamentalists, he said that most fundamentalists could be found within the ranks of American Protestants. Go back and reread his post, it was much more nuanced than you're making it out to be.

Yes he did. He has clearly said 100% of fundamentalism is protestant and he has said a literalist take is traditionally expected of protestant! He then proposes that’s only true for American protestants. Has he substantiated that claim? No. Can you?

Do most Catholics follow Catholic church dogma? (Doubt it.)

Exactly. Which I argued for. He’s suggesting catholics adhere to it 100% and protestants do not. That’s asinine. That ‘doubt’ should extend to both equally. If one is reasonable.

Does Catholic church dogma require literalism? (Doubt it.)

Come now. You surely wouldn’t argue at least some parts of scripture are mandated to be taken literally.

If so, is literalism the same thing as fundamentalism?

How do you define fundamentalism?

Is Catholic.com the official site of the Catholic church? (Doubt it.)

If the Vatican with all their money and power took qualm with the words on friggin Catholic .com then they would have it changed.

This is there mission statement:

Catholic Answers is an apostolate dedicated to serving Christ by bringing the fullness of Catholic truth to the world. We help good Catholics become better Catholics, bring former Catholics “home,” and lead non-Catholics into the fullness of the faith.

If they had been contacted by the Vatican to alter their wording to better represent Catholicism they would have. Additionally, as a web developer myself, I can tell you that Catholic .com is very much on their radar.

How does a literal reading of Genesis connect to ET anyway? Nothing in Genesis rules out ET life.

I gave many thoughts in a few posts at the start of the thread towards that.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
You have said that fundamentalist is a protestant thing, that traditionally it's expected of them.

I never said that. You lie again.

As most things I said, you distort them and view them in a way suiting you.

All the answers to your questions have been answered already.


Also it's funny you always suddenly go silent when I prove you wrong, like when you asked me to prove ATS and internet boards are not representative sample. Really, all that is needed to support my claims was already posted. All the rest is background noise because you simply can't process these 2 simple informations:

Christian fundamentalism; movement in American Protestantism that arose in the late 19th century in reaction to theological modernism, which aimed to revise traditional Christian beliefs to accommodate new developments in the natural and social sciences, especially the advent of the theory of biological evolution. In keeping with traditional Christian doctrines concerning biblical interpretation, the mission of Jesus Christ, and the role of the church in society, fundamentalists affirmed a core of Christian beliefs that included the historical accuracy of the Bible, the imminent and physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and Christ’s Virgin Birth, Resurrection (see resurrection), and Atonement (see atonement). Fundamentalism became a significant phenomenon in the early 20th century and remained an influential movement in American society into the 21st century.

www.britannica.com...



Conspiracy board statistics:








Now you have been the one asking questions all the time and I have answered them all.


If you want to keep discussing with me, it's your turn to answer me:

You say it's not true most Christians read genesis allegorically.


Prove it.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
he has said a literalist take is traditionally expected of protestant!

You are such a liar. I challenge you to quote the post were I said this.

a reply to: Develo
So no response to the bulk of my post then? Okay. That's telling. No they haven't all be answered. Like substantiating your many claims. Do I need to post them all again. How many times?

I never said that. You lie again.

Fine. You suggested it's traditionally expected of American protestants and not protestants in general. Back it up. Substantiate that protestant fundamentalism is exclusively American, and that Creationism is also so.

Also it's funny you always suddenly go silent when I prove you wrong

I lost a friend. I took some time to post here. I'm not silent now am i?

like when you asked me to prove ATS

Again. The question was what percent of ATS's Christian member-base is American. Neither of us know the answer there, right?

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: Develo
So no response to the bulk of my post then? Okay.

I reply all the time but you either ignore or refuse to see my answers.

Now you have been the one asking questions all the time and I have answered them all.


If you want to keep discussing with me, it's your turn to answer me:

You say it's not true most Christians read genesis allegorically.


Prove it.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
Fine. You suggested it's traditionally expected of American protestants and not protestants in general. Back it up. Substantiate that protestant fundamentalism is exclusively American, and that Creationism is also so.

Already answered 2 times:
www.britannica.com...

Again. The question was what percent of ATS's Christian member-base is American. Neither of us know the answer there, right?

Bad faith.

I proved the percentage of Americans on a conspiracy board is 50%

Conspiracy boards are not representative samples, no matter how you much you disagree.



you are such a sore loser.

a reply to: Develo

You say it's not true most Christians read genesis allegorically.

My assertion has been that we cannot know with any certainty one way or another. Hence me introducing my experience. It's you making absolute claims.

I think we are done. You have ignored many questions and requests of mine. It's silly to continue to ask things of me while ignoring mine.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
I think we are done. You have ignored many questions and requests of mine.

I answered them all. You are just too obtuse to see them.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
It's silly to continue to ask things of me while ignoring mine.

You have been the one asking all along.

It's the first time I ask something of you.

It's awesome how much you project without seeing it.

I'm glad everyone can see how much bad faith was in your posts. Saying I don't answer, telling lies about what I said, saying I "ask things of you" when you are the one doing it.

It's sad to see so much intellectual dishonesty together in such a bright mind.

a reply to: Develo
Okay buddy.

I care not what you think at this point. I'm done. We are obviously not going anywhere with this. This is my last reply to you in this thread. I'm not going to derail further with this. You can if you want to.