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What will happen to Christianity when we finally confirm ET?

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posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 11:03 AM
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a reply to: StalkerSolent

And thank you for taking the time to read my posts and understand them.

I'm not religious but during my searches for answers I met many extremely intelligent and wise and loving religious people from all tradition and I'm always very sad when I read false generalizations about religious people, usually on American boards.


There is a tragic trend today in the US presenting people with a false choice, a choice between scientific "reason" and religious faith.

This is a false dichotomy. It doesn't exist as strongly elsewhere.

It only exists because fundamentalism always pretends to represent the only true religious way, like in Islam and other religions, and fundamentalism hates modernity and change because it challenges literalism.



Religions and spiritualities are in fact like philosophies. They are for the soul. They do not pretend to explain the material world.

There is no choice to make between reason and faith because they do not concern the same realities.






Orthodox are cool too. I love their art, and it's very clear that even if they have specific traditions, they have in their heart the same longing for fraternity as all spiritual and loving people, which is in the end the only religious thing that truly matters.


To get back to topic; most if not all Christians I know would react to the announcement of alien life exactly like everyone else. It would put their own existence into perspective with something much bigger than themselves. But they are used to that kind of feeling aren't they

edit on 19-3-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 11:22 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

Nothing will happen to Christianity.

To my knowledge, as a follower of Jesus, extraterrestrial life is not incompatible with Christianity. First, scripture is what has been given to us. Most of us aren't arrogant and self-righteous enough to believe for a second that God has revealed all the mysteries of the universe to us. He gave us only what we need to know. Second, scripture is riddled with passages that may or may not imply extraterrestrial life. No, I'm not talking about angels, the star of Bethlehem, or where Jesus came from. An example of what I'm talking about is the metallic object in Ezekiel that looks like a wheel within a wheel. Also, it speaks of the heavens and the Earth except "heavens" in this context isn't quite the same as the Kingdom (what we think of when we think heaven).



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Develo

Faith is the antithesis of reason, even when you put it in quotation marks...

Faith is believing in something for no good reason. It's not reasonable to accept claims made that way.
edit on 19-3-2015 by Prezbo369 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 12:53 PM
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originally posted by: Prezbo369
Reply to: Develo

Faith is the antithesis of reason, even when you put it in quotation marks...

Faith is believing in something for no good reason. It's not reasonable to accept claims made that way.


No...
My dictionary defines it as "complete trust or confidence in someone or something" or "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 01:00 PM
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My point is that they aren't antithesis since they belong to different realities.


Science deals with the material world so it can rely on material proofs.

Spirituality is subjective and internal so it can only rely on faith and/or personal experience. It cannot be shared. It cannot be proven universally true. It's subjective.

Personally I would encourage to go for the personal experience rather than simply faith, but faith can also help with the experience sooooo....
edit on 19-3-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-3-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 02:14 PM
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a reply to: Komodo




secure in their relationship with the Trinity


Yeah that's a problem right there, as the OP said..."the trinity isn't a biblical concept", rather an embraced Pagan ideology, that denies the true death/ransom of a very special ET.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Good luck convincing any church goers of that little nugget.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 02:46 PM
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Who ever said that extraterrestrial life is not permitted under Christianity? Where in the Bible does it say anything of the sort.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 03:41 PM
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originally posted by: Develo
My point is that they aren't antithesis since they belong to different realities.


Science deals with the material world so it can rely on material proofs.

Spirituality is subjective and internal so it can only rely on faith and/or personal experience. It cannot be shared. It cannot be proven universally true. It's subjective.

Personally I would encourage to go for the personal experience rather than simply faith, but faith can also help with the experience sooooo....


And this is where we would have to disagree.

Science does not only just deal with material proofs as there have been many scientists who do research what you would call paranormal and supernatural. Just because you might not agree with those as being part of reality, the truth is that much scientific endeavor has been pursued about those subjects.

Faith in Christianity isn't about believing simply because you are told to believe, it is faith in what you know. I can say without a doubt that God exists because of the experiences that I have had and what I have heard from other people. I HAVE seen the effect of prayer and I HAVE seen what happens when people worship.

You must surely remember the many MRIs of people with faith, how neurosurgeons were showing that people with faith have very real activity in certain parts of their brains not associated with fantasy. And you must certainly be aware now of the many DNA samples that have proven that faith is hardwired into our genomes.

Now it is up to you whatever branch of science you choose to trust, but to say that it is not real science even though every scientific method was followed and published, that's your own problem. The point is, science has proven more about the paranormal, supernatural and faith than what the establishment allows you to think about.

What does that say for one side who continually pounds the rhetoric of absolute trust in a method, when the very establishment denies the truth? It is empty rhetoric to keep pushing the idea that faith is wrong, when you have faith in science and the establishment to tell you what they only want you to think.

You, have faith, whether you believe it or not. Otherwise you wouldn't keep telling us how wonderful science is. Science is nothing but a method and a theory, it is the scientists who tell you what to think.

And all of this "pseudoscience" that your side keeps harping about, those scientists followed the exact same scientific methods, only to be rejected because the establishment does not want you to know the truth. But you blindly dance when they pull the strings. That's the real tragedy.

You have faith in scientists, not science.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 03:47 PM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Komodo




secure in their relationship with the Trinity


Yeah that's a problem right there, as the OP said..."the trinity isn't a biblical concept", rather an embraced Pagan ideology, that denies the true death/ransom of a very special ET.


Genesis 18 proves that the Trinity is real.

Abraham, sitting at his tent while dwelling in the plains of Mamre, lifted his eyes and saw THREE men that he bowed down and worshiped and called Adonai. Abraham worshiped these three as one.


Genesis 18: 1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:


If you want to say it is a pagan concept, tell that to the Jews who wrote it into the Torah. Abraham wasn't a pagan at that time, but worshiped them as one, Adonai came as three.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 04:08 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

That doesn't prove the trinity...

The bible says God is one... not three In one, or three equals one...

The concept of the trinity is simply not found in the bible... its only found by selective reading as you've demonstrated...

Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One

and yes it is a concept which the roman church borrowed...




posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 04:36 PM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: WarminIndy

That doesn't prove the trinity...

The bible says God is one... not three In one, or three equals one...

The concept of the trinity is simply not found in the bible... its only found by selective reading as you've demonstrated...

Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One

and yes it is a concept which the roman church borrowed...



Again, the chapter deals exclusively with Abraham meeting three men that he called Adonai and worshiped as one. And the word used for one is ECHAD, we have discussed this before.

ECHAD means the sum of the parts equal 1 whole. Not 1 as in singular 1.

And for this cause shall a man and a woman cleave unto each other and become one flesh....the word is echad. The same echad used in many other verses.

From the Orthodox Jewish Bible


VHAYU LVASAR ECHAD (A man will leave his father and his mother and he will be joined to his isha (wife), and the two will be one flesh
[BERESHIS 2:24] For this reason, they are no longer Shnayim but Basar Echad.


When reading the Bible, please remember to view it from the Judaic perspective, as all writers in the Bible were Jewish.

Echad is the unifying element.

Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Those are three. Why would Jesus say to baptize in something contrary to Moses, when He continually quoted and upheld Moses?

And why would Jesus say something contrary to Abraham, when He called him "Father Abraham" and upheld him as well to say that Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom?

From the Luther Bible (yes, I know German)

und werden die zwei ein Fleisch sein. So sind sie nun nicht zwei, sondern ein Fleisch.


ein in this translation does not mean the number 1, as the number 1 is EINS. to say ein means a unified number to make one. The sum of the parts.

Louis Segond, French (yes, I know French also)

et les deux deviendront une seule chair. Ainsi ils ne sont plus deux, mais ils sont une seule chair.


In French, the number 1 is UN, not une. No matter what language, the unifier word is used. In Hebrew, German and French, all the same idea.

And the La Palabra Bible in Spanish (yes, I know a little Spanish)

y ambos llegarán a ser como una sola persona. De modo que ya no son dos personas, sino una sola.


The number 1 in Spanish is uno, and since uno is not used, but una is, can only mean that the unifier word is used instead. All of these other translations use the unifier and not the singular for the word echad, so it can only mean echad is understood as a unifier and not as a singular.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 04:54 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy


When reading the Bible, please remember to view it from the Judaic perspective, as all writers in the Bible were Jewish.


There is no trinity in Judaism... nor did they believe in a triune God...

Neither did Jesus or his apostles...

What is written in Matthew, which is to baptise in the name of the Father, son, and holy Ghost was an addition by the early church...

Theres proof of this within the bible and outside of it...

Eusebius quotes the passage in Matthew several times, and its written "baptise in my name"

Everything in the New Testament is done In the name of Christ... and IF the Trinitarian formula was original to the texts they would have followed it to the letter... but you can not find anywhere in the New testament where anyone is baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:16
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days

Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was how they did it... None of the followers of Jesus actually follow his command because he didn't give it... it was an alteration of the text by a Trinitarian scribe...

The only other solid reference to the trinity is 1 john 5:7... which is a well known forgery...




posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 05:34 PM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: WarminIndy


When reading the Bible, please remember to view it from the Judaic perspective, as all writers in the Bible were Jewish.


There is no trinity in Judaism... nor did they believe in a triune God...

Neither did Jesus or his apostles...

What is written in Matthew, which is to baptise in the name of the Father, son, and holy Ghost was an addition by the early church...

Theres proof of this within the bible and outside of it...

Eusebius quotes the passage in Matthew several times, and its written "baptise in my name"

Everything in the New Testament is done In the name of Christ... and IF the Trinitarian formula was original to the texts they would have followed it to the letter... but you can not find anywhere in the New testament where anyone is baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:16
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days

Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was how they did it... None of the followers of Jesus actually follow his command because he didn't give it... it was an alteration of the text by a Trinitarian scribe...

The only other solid reference to the trinity is 1 john 5:7... which is a well known forgery...



Let's go through the Shema that Jesus quoted..

Shema Y'Israel, Adonai eloheinu, Adonai echad
baruch shem k'vod malkhuto le'olam va' ed

OK, here's the problem, the word Adonai is plural. They know this.

Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Well, if you say you believe in Jesus and what He said, then you would have to recant your position that the God of the Torah is not the God of the New Testament, as Jesus clearly indicates the same God.

And it would seem reasonable that since Jesus constantly quoted Torah, then He was familiar with this passage


Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Who are the us?

Louis Segond

22 L'Éternel Dieu dit: Voici, l'homme est devenu comme l'un de nous, pour la connaissance du bien et du mal. Empêchons-le maintenant d'avancer sa main, de prendre de l'arbre de vie, d'en manger, et de vivre éternellement.


Orthodox Jewish Bible

22 And Hashem Elohim said, See, HaAdam is become like one of Us, knowing tov v’rah; and now, lest he put forth his yad, and take also of HaEtz HaChayyim, and eat, and chai l’olam (live forever);


Hashem Elohim, notice that word? That Elohim is plural. When the word Elohim is used, it indicates a plurality as opposed to Eloheinu which is singular. Eloheinu means "our God".

Adonai Eloheinu means "Lord, our God". THAT is the plural and singular used at the same time, Adonai is plural, because the singular of that is Adoni.

When "The name that can't be spoken, Gods". Hashem is what they say when they can't say God, it simply means 'the name".

I think that if one wants to accuse some scribe of inserting "trinitarian" ideas into Torah, then all of the Jews are reading from a Christian scribe, because it is Torah and read and recited and prayed every single day, twice a day.

La Palabra Bible

22 Después, Dios, el Señor, se dijo: “El ser humano es ya como uno de nosotros, conocedor del bien y del mal; para ser inmortal sólo le falta extender la mano y comer del fruto del árbol de la vida”.


Luther Bible

22 Und Gott der HERR sprach: Siehe, Adam ist geworden wie unsereiner und weiß, was gut und böse ist. Nun aber, daß er nicht ausstrecke seine Hand und breche auch von dem Baum des Lebens und esse und lebe ewiglich!


The word us is used in every language. Had there been no concept of plurality, they would not have written us, because Elohim is a plural word.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Plurality still does not equal a triune God...

I know all the supposed proof texts Christians use to attempt to prove their trinity... accept they forget one important FACT... Jesus did not recognise a trinity... the Jews did not recognise a trinity...

The apostles did not recognise a trinity... its simply not there, no matter how much you might want it to be... its not

Not even Paul recognised a trinity... regardless of my dislike for his writing... the fact remains

The actions of those people in the OT validate the fact that they did not know the true Father in their time... the message is contradictory to everything Jesus taught...

Yes he did speak of Moses... Yes he did quote the OT, but one needs to use the material that people were used to hearing in order to get the message across...

Plurality doesn't mean there are two entities being equal as God... Jesus clearly stated he existed before his incarnation... And Abraham was happy to see his day... This does not mean Jesus was God... It means he was the son of God just as he stated... sent by God, as he stated...

HE worshipped the Father alone, not the Father and himself... along with the holy spirit... Just the Father...

And when he returned to his place he sits "beside" the Father at the right hand of God... not in his throne...

upon his resurrection he says specifically... All the power of heaven and earth has been GIVEN to me...

Which mean he is subordinate to the Father as he said and showed in his ministry...

Further more he stated three times in John that the Father is greater then HE...

The trinity is NOT a biblical concept... though Christianity uses everything they can to validate it... but the only reason its excepted is because of tradition... Nothing more...

Scholars across the board recognise this fact... even Christian ones that prefer to be honest as opposed to blindly following the traditions of a corrupt early church



The fact is the word "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible. Even the concept is missing. Clearly it was contrived in the imaginations of man. An exhaustive review of Scripture and history reveals the simple fact that the Trinity teaching was unknown to the early New Testament assembly, as supported by numerous authorities:

• "Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon" (Oxford Companion to the Bible, 1993, p. 782).

• "The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word ‘trinity’ itself nor such language as ‘one-in-three,’ ‘three-in-one,’ one ‘essence’ (or ‘substance’), and three ‘persons,’ is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the ancient church taken from classical Greek philosophy" (Christian Doctrine, Shirley Guthrie, Jr., 1994, pp. 76-77). It’s important to observe here that the author attributes the notion of the Trinity not to Scripture, but to influence from Greek philosophy.

• "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to this whole concept under one word" (Classic Bible Dictionary, Jay P. Green, p. 483). Tertullian was a Christian author and apologist who lived from 160 CE to 225 CE. Before Tertullian the word trinity did not exist in Christian writing.

• "Many doctrines are accepted by evangelicals as being clearly taught in the Scripture for which there are no proof texts. The doctrine of the Trinity furnishes the best example of this. It is fair to say that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity" (Basic Theology, Professor Charles Ryrie, 1999, p. 89).

• "It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man" (The Sermons of Martin Luther, John Lenker, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Even though Martin Luther was an avid supporter of the Trinity, he correctly recognized that the doctrine was derived from man and not from the Bible.

• "The term ‘Trinity’ is not a biblical term…In point of fact, the doctrine of the Trinity is a purely revealed doctrine…As the doctrine of the Trinity is indiscoverable by reason, so it is incapable of proof from reason" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia , vol. 5, p. 3012, "Trinity").

• "It is admitted by all who thoughtfully deal with this subject that the Scripture revelation here leads us into the presence of a deep mystery; and that all human attempts at expression are of necessity imperfect" (New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, 1988, p. 1308, "Trinity"). Should we rest our entire faith on a belief that is a "deep mystery?"

• "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one God, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us" (Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, p. 553, "Trinity").

• "Precisely what that doctrine is, or rather precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves" (A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge, 1885, "Trinitarians"). Disagreements abounded through the centuries even among those who advocate this doctrine. Should not a belief so critical and indispensable be not only plainly and clearly taught in the Scriptures, but at least be understood and agreed upon by its very proponents?

• "The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the NT" (The Harper Collins Bible Dictionary, 1996, "Trinity").

• "The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies… The council of Nicea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the ‘Son is of the same substance…as the Father,’ even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit…By the end of the 4th century…the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, "Trinity").

• "…primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds of the early church" (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 2, 1976, p. 84, "God").

• "The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century… Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14).

edit on 19-3-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 06:09 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

As much as you like to dismiss it, Elohim is plural and Abraham saw three men he called Adonai, in plural.

Sure, the Bible doesn't say many words, but you still accept what it says. For instance, the words nuclear explosion isn't mentioned either, but Nehemiah accurately describes it.

And hey, the Bible also does not say "this is the absolute authority" either, but you accept the words in red as absolute authority, don't you?

Just because the word does not exist as we know it today does not mean the concept was never there. For them to write into Torah the words "Elohim" and then tell us about Abraham meeting three men he called Lord could only indicate one thing, Abraham met three men he called Lord, three in one.

Let's go through it again, because obviously it must be hard to accept that this is Torah.


Genesis 18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:


Who appeared? The Lord, Adonai. How did Adonai appear? As three men.

Who did they appear to? Abraham. How did Abraham address himself? As the servant of Adonai.


9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.


Who said? THEY.


13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.


Again, still three men, THEY, who is THEY? The Lord, Adonai.


16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?


Who was Adonai speaking to here? Not Abraham, but the other men.


22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.


Who? The men.


33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


All of this, it cannot be angels because Abraham bowed down and worshiped and called them Lord, Adonai and called himself their servant. It cannot be just human men, because Abraham spoke to the Lord face to face.

This is Torah. No matter how much you cut it, spin it or slice and dice it, the fact remains, Adonai is plural and Abraham met Him as three men. He called them Lord as one, echad. That can only mean Abraham knew the Lord in trinity.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 06:22 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

You're nailing the entire doctrine of the trinity to one passage... which only shows how weak the argument really is...

The Torah does not accept or adhere to a trinity...

Judaism does not recognise a trinity... In fact they would laugh at you for even suggesting such things...

And plurality is not even an honest argument for the trinity in any case... Elohim is used as both singular and plural in the Torah...

for example...

Singular...
And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations"(Ex 3:15)

When Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses’ father in law, heard of all that Elohim had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, and that Yahweh had brought Israel out of Egypt" (Ex. 18:1)

Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto Yahweh thy Elohim in the place which Yahweh shall choose: because Yahweh thy Elohim shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice" (Deut. 16:15)

Now the Plural form of Elohim

And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their mighty ones [elohim]: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their mighty ones" (Num. 25:2)

And they forsook Yahweh Elohim of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other mighty ones [elohim], of the mighty ones [elohim] of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked Yahweh to anger" (Judg. 2:12) Not Torah but the example is still there

So the fact is, its simply a dishonest argument when you and other Christians attempt to prove a triune God by using the word Elohim as an example that God is a trinity...

Elohim does not specify a number, only a plurality. It can just as easily mean two heavenly beings

but lets take this argument a step further...

Christians love their holy apostle Paul...

Paul does not give any salutations in any of his letters from a triune God... that is because the trinity did not exist before man created it in the early years of the church... and what did Jesus say about the doctrines of man?


• "… Grace to you and peace from Yahweh our Father, and the Master Yahshua Messiah" (Rom. 1:7).

• "Grace be unto you, and peace, from Yahweh our Father, and from the Master Yahshua Messiah" (1Cor. 1:3).

• "Grace be to you and peace from Yahweh our Father, and from the Master Yahshua Messiah" (2Cor. 1:2).

• "Grace be to you and peace from Yahweh the Father, and from our Master Yahshua Messiah" (Gal. 1:3).

• "Grace be to you, and peace, from Yahweh our Father, and from the Master Yahshua Messiah" (Eph. 1:2).

• "Grace be unto you, and peace, from Yahweh our Father, and from the Master Yahshua Messiah" (Phil. 1:2).

• "…Grace be unto you, and peace, from Yahweh our Father and the Master Yahshua Messiah" (Col. 1:2).

• "…Grace be unto you, and peace, from Yahweh our Father, and the Master Yahshua Messiah" (1Thess. 1:1).

• "Grace unto you, and peace, from Yahweh our Father and the Master Yahshua Messiah" (2Thess. 1:2).

• "…Grace, mercy, and peace, from Yahweh our Father and Yahshua Messiah our Master" (1Tim. 1:2).

• "…Grace, mercy, and peace, from Yahweh the Father and Messiah Yahshua our Master" (2Tim. 1:2).

• "…Grace, mercy, and peace, from Yahweh the Father and the Master Yahshua Messiah our Saviour" (Tit. 1:4).


As you see... the trinity is absent... period


edit on 19-3-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 06:22 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Sometimes you come across bible verses that are interesting such as this Proverb

Chapter 8 starting is verse 22




22 The LORD produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established* the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;
31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth,
And I was especially fond of the sons of men


Honestly, I don't know how any Christian can read these types of verses, and not figure it out, it's so simple.
The OP has.

These verses make me understand we are very early, in relative terms, into the history of biological life in the universe, other forms of life are literally billions of years old, much older than the physical universe.

edit on 19-3-2015 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 07:50 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

Why dismiss one chapter?

Should we take it out altogether from the Christian Bible?

EloHIM is always plural...EloHEINU is singular.

Let's look at the verse YOU just posted...


When Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses’ father in law, heard of all that Elohim had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, and that Yahweh had brought Israel out of Egypt" (Ex. 18:1)


Elohim and Yaweh....both mentioned in the same verse, two different words. You have just proven that Elohim is plural, because Yaweh is mentioned by name, in the same verse. Good job.

But Jethro was not even part of the same religion as Moses, how interesting that the very verse you would use is about an idol worshiper who acknowledges the Elohim and Yaweh, that he later then says Yaweh (I AM) Elohim (plural),

Yaweh (the four letters) is not actually a name, it simply means I AM.

And here is another one you just used


Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto Yahweh thy Elohim in the place which Yahweh shall choose: because Yahweh thy Elohim shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice" (Deut. 16:15)


Yaweh (I AM) thy EloHIM (plural) said to keep Shabbos where I AM chooses. In other words, in the multiplicity of gods, he is simply saying that Yaweh (I AM) is the God that they will follow, even though Elohim is the unifying God, they just simplified it to I AM.

Orthodox Jewish Bible

Joshua 24

14 Now therefore fear Hashem, serve Him batamim (completely) and in emes; put away the elohim which Avoteichem served on the other side of the [Euphrates] River, and in Mitzrayim; and serve ye Hashem. 15 And if it seem rah unto you to serve Hashem, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the elohim which Avoteichem served that were on the other side of the River, or the elohei HaEmori, in whose land ye dwell; but as for me and my bais, we will serve Hashem.


Elohim is still plural. Elohim means gods. Joshua said that you can choose to serve the elohim(gods) of the fathers or Hashem.


And notice here that Joshua also said elohei HaEmori, the god of the Amorites. Elohei is singular, Eloheinu is singular for "our God", that they call HaShem, the name.

In that same chapter he says

2 And Yehoshua said unto Kol HaAm, Thus saith Hashem Elohei Yisroel, Avoteichem dwelt on the other side of the [Euphrates] River long ago, even Terach, Avi Avraham, and Avi Nachor: and they served elohim acherim.


Terah, the father of Abraham and Nachor (the father of Lot) served other elohim (gods).

There was indeed the idea of plurality. Now if Joshua says that HaShem took Abraham across the Euphrates,


3 But I took Avichem Avraham from the other side of the [Euphrates] River, and led him through Kol Eretz Kena’an, and multiplied his zera, and gave him Yitzchak.


and led him through Canaan (Kol Eretz Kena'an) but at the same time acknowledging by the usage of the word elohim, then Joshua was saying that of all the gods the fathers served, that they were choosing to serve HaShem alone, even though HaShem was one among many Elohim. This is Torah.

And not only that, Joshua concedes that they could serve the elohim of their fathers from before the flood. Which is really strange because they were all Hebrews. So it means that elohim was plural and accepted in Torah since the beginning, because they wrote it in Torah.

In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.


23 Now therefore put away, said he, the elohei hanechar which are among you, and yield your levav unto Hashem Elohei Yisroel. 24 And HaAm said unto Yehoshua, Hashem Eloheinu will we serve, and His voice will we obey.


Put away the idols he is saying here.

Really, elohim is plural, the plurality is known throughout Torah and Abraham saw three men as one.



posted on Mar, 19 2015 @ 07:51 PM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

I think you missed my posts, I am in agreement that there can be aliens and that it will not change faith at all.




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