Wicca's New Rights under the Georgia Religious Freedom Restoration Act

Wouldn't it be unconstitutional for Wicca to be exempt from blood testing, breathalysers etc


In the case of criminal activity this is now what stands up in court...




& I do recall a famous and popular phrase on ATS "church & state"...



But I also think that the constitution mentions "no law created impeding religious exercise" (paraphrasing)...


So is it in fact unconstitutional to force Wicca to do a breathalyser, blood test, swab sample etc...
Considering that would be a "law created impeding religious exercise" (paraphrasing)...




I think the ultimate paradox has just been unveiled here!


S&F Gryphon!

originally posted by: grandmakdw
a reply to: Gryphon66

So I gather you don't believe in freedom of religion because you don't believe in religion.

That appears to be the reason behind your OP, to ridicule anyone and everyone who belives in religion, as seen in your made up snail religion.

The constitution guarantees freedom of religion and the Georgia law is an extension of that guarantee.

Does this sum up your idea of how a nation should respond to religion since you oppose the Georgia law?

This life is where we build the eternity of the nation.
What happens to me when I die? I do not know.
One thing I do know. I will return to the earth
and will belong again to the wonderful Mother Earth.
Isn’t that enough? If only a blade of grass of a flower grows from my grave,
that is enough for me. I am happy with what I have done so far.
It was both hard and beautiful, and I am thankful for these 48 years.
And if I remain alive long enough to finish my work, I can die in peace.
Death will hold no terrors for me.

research.calvin.edu...

Sorry I just don't the venomous word about religious people of all kinds. Maybe the person who said the quote above understands you better.

So as a non American asking a genuine question if I may?

If someone creates a new religion and asks for certain exeptions to be added to law then would that be acceptable?

As I say straight up question, does religion overide law in your view?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

No way. The Divine Voice in my head has no Earthly body to which it is bound. It speaks to me and me alone as well and cannot be verified by any other party but myself and myself alone.

BTW, you would have been closer by saying 16th cookie rather than 6th. You clearly "misunderestimated" my abilities.

a reply to: mOjOm

Gah. I tried. My omnipotence seems to have slipped a bit.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

No problem. Sounds like you need to get your own Invisible Divine Authority inside your head too. They're free and easy to come by after all. Completely undeniable, unquestionable and unprovable. Yet Believable. Which is all that really matters.

a reply to: nonspecific

First of all, please know that I personally find almost all religious equally absurd, so I am not defending Wicca over any other religion.

Second ... the Witchcraft Laws were not repealed in Great Britain until 1951. It was, literally, against the law to discuss any thing related to "witchcraft" and certainly so to publish or promote the same.

In 1954 Gardner published Witchcraft Today which is considered the primary treatise on Gardnerian Wicca.

Public Domain text of Gardner's Witchcraft Today (1954)

From 2- There have Been Witches in all Ages:

In the Stone Ages man's chief wants were good crops, good hunting, good fishing, increase in flocks and herds and many children to make the tribe strong. It became the witches' duty to perform rites to obtain these things. This was probably a matriarchal age, when man was the hunter and woman stayed at home making medicine and magic. Historically, the matriarchal period has been tentatively dated from the middle of the ninth to the middle of the seventh millennium B.C., during which time caves, trees, the moon and stars all seem to have been reverenced as female emblems.

So the myth of the Great Mother came into existence and woman was her priestess. Probably at the same time the men had a hunter's god, who presided over the animals. Later, perhaps, came the idea of a future life and thoughts of the next world as being an unhappy place unless you could attain to the abode of the gods, a sort of paradise. This was thought of as a place cf rest and refreshment where one would grow young again ready for reincarnation on earth.

Gardner, as the author of the religion Wicca, states that the beliefs of same are identical to beliefs handed down through generations from the Stone Age.


If we're not going to accept a man at his word, we might as well question whether Joseph Smith actually found Golden Plates that carried Another Testament of Jesus Christ and decoded them with a seeing stone provided to him by an angel.

If we're not going to accept a man at his word, we might as well question whether science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard just made up all the seminal information for the formation of the Church of Scientology because he was down on his luck and needed a money-making scheme.

Etc. etc.

a reply to: nonspecific

This is a reply regarding a question asking if the Georgia law meant that religion overrides law in the US:
This is my response to that question regarding the Georgia law, and the reason it was written:

Religion does not override law in the United States (USA)

However, respect for religion and a deep respect for the right of people to worship in peace is a primary,
or WAS a primary value for the USA.

The USA of the past, respected people's freedom to worship as they choose
so deeply that we wrote in the constitution that everyone is guaranteed
freedom OF religion:

This thread has people expressing the new idea
that many liberal and progressive leaning people WANT as law,
freedom FROM religion,
guaranteeing everyone the right to never be exposed to religion
in any form, anywhere in the USA.

Unfortunately, a subset of liberal/progressive people would prefer to outlaw
all forms of religion
and all forms of worship in the USA,
and want to override the constitution, in this manner.

There is a great divide in the USA as evidenced in this thread.

It is my opinion that:
The liberals and progressives would like to see any and all expressions
of religious belief banned in any and all public arenas and areas,
much like smoking.
Ban wearing religious symbols or reading religious books
not just in schools or government buildings,
but in all places that are open to the public.
Except for Muslims (which really puzzles me)

It is this type of oppression that religious people are fighting in the USA.

The people that wish to eliminate everyone of faith
and their expressions of faith, turn around
and ridicule people like me, saying things like I said above.
But their actions and general rhetoric regarding
people of faith demonstrate the accuracy of the above assertions.

a reply to: grandmakdw

As usual in our interchanges, you are making absurd claims and statements about what I believe and intend that are simply not true. Honestly, there is no relationship between what you said and my original post. Nothing.

Quote something I've said in this discussion or kindly refrain from derailing the topic with your own imaginary projections about me and what I believe.

a reply to: grandmakdw

This thread regards two things: the new law in Georgia called the Georgia Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

I also linked a statement from a formally registered Wiccan religious group reacting to that new law.

You have not addressed in any way either of those items or their implications in your commentary.

May I ask that you please stop clouding the topic regarding these two items with your evangelizing about your political views?

Please address the topic as outlined in the OP. Thank you for your kind consideration.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Religion does not override law.

It overrides discrimination laws.

It overrides Healthcare laws for birth control.

It overrides some Tax law.

It overrides some Equal Employment Laws.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: grandmakdw

This thread regards two things: the new law in Georgia called the Georgia Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

I also linked a statement from Wiccan religious group reacting to that new law.

May I ask that you please stop clouding the topic regarding these two items with your evangelizing about your political views?

Please address the topic as outlined in the OP. Thank you for your kind consideration.

Well that saved me some time, thankyou! after reading the above comments I could only asume I had completely misunderstood the Op and felt a little foolish.

By the time I had re read the entire OP twice I came back only to see that you already adressed the point.

Well said.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Religion does not override law.

It overrides discrimination laws.

It overrides Healthcare laws for birth control.

It overrides some Tax law.

It overrides some Equal Employment Laws.

As with my post at the top of the page that seems to have gone unnoticed...


Would the list you mentioned in anyway have something to do with subsection of the 1st Amendment "no law shall be created that negates freedom of religious exercise"...? (Paraphrasing)


Edit:
1st Amendment...
"United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law impeding the free exercise of religion"...



If so, is it not then constitutionally correct that the list you mentioned has no bearing on the religious?

a reply to: nonspecific

So, back on our topic of trying to establish the validity of a religion as noted in the law, the GA Constitution, etc.

And the last information I posed on Gardner, et. al.

If you have a moment, I would truly value your comment on it!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Charlie, your post focuses on exactly what I think is so interesting about the intersection of the new Georgia law and the response of the Wiccans!

On my read, this law seems to elevate, across the board, religious belief above any and all laws!

The burden will be on the State to demonstrate that these laws do not "burden" the religious beliefs of individuals.

It will be interesting to see how far that will go, won't it?

Again, I'm looking for a legal definition of "God" as the implementation of this law seems to require.

Thanks for your post; it did NOT go unnoticed!

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: nonspecific

So, back on our topic of trying to establish the validity of a religion as noted in the law, the GA Constitution, etc.

And the last information I posed on Gardner, et. al.

If you have a moment, I would truly value your comment on it!

I am starting to think that the question of Wicca may deserve a thread of it's own.

Not to take away from this one but to have a good old informative debate about what it is, what it is not.


Not to take away from this thread but to answer a slightly different question.

What do you think a wiccan is?

that way we can come back to your point and discuss it as it was intended.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Thanks Gryphon I thought I'd become invisible


I'd have to say that as it stands...

It seems that "prohibits creation of any law impeding freedom of religious exercise" currently stands...


I can only imaging the seperation of church and state would come into play if it was an attempt to enforce an entirely Wiccan Law for the whole of the U.S...



I'm pretty well versed, but not exceptional...

So any corrections are indeed invited that will teach me something I may be missing.




As for the legal definition of God...

That may be wholey defined by the Constitution (? I think) in which it says "all are created equal by their creator"...
As opposed to "our" creator...
Edit: Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution!

Again, if I have that wrong, please do correct my assumption!

originally posted by: grandmakdw

Unfortunately, a subset of liberal/progressive people would prefer to outlaw
all forms of religion
and all forms of worship in the USA,
and want to override the constitution, in this manner.

That is because the small group that you mention are just pushing back against the Conservative/Fundamentalists who prefer everything to be about their specific religious belief and be the unquestionable "Truth" in all areas of life and should be practices by everyone.

However, both groups are batsh*t crazy and should really shut up IMO.

It is my opinion that:
The liberals and progressives would like to see any and all expressions
of religious belief banned in any and all public arenas and areas,
much like smoking.
Ban wearing religious symbols or reading religious books
not just in schools or government buildings,
but in all places that are open to the public.
Except for Muslims (which really puzzles me)

Yep, that is just your opinion and it's crazy and incorrect too. Most liberals and progressives just want Religious folk to do their Religious stuff on their own time and keep it within the church or in their own homes that's all. They don't care how many churches you build or what you want to believe personally.

Just keep it from screwing around with the Secular Human Based society we all share. Things like Business, Politics, Education, etc. should be kept apart from religion unless it is dedicated to that purpose like Education about Religion or Church Business. That goes for all religions too. Islam included. They don't want to have to worship Allah any more than they have to worship Jesus or Zeus or the Sun unless they choose to do so for themselves.

I just wanted to add that many Liberals and Progressives are also Religious. Yet they still don't want Religion to be the authority in everything else in the world. They are able to keep their Religion and Beliefs as personal rather than public.

a reply to: nonspecific

Fair enough. I am no authority on Wicca; a thread on it's origins vis-a-vis validity would have to fall to someone else.

Nonetheless, I hope you'll continue to contribute here as you see fit.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: nonspecific

Fair enough. I am no authority on Wicca; a thread on it's origins vis-a-vis validity would have to fall to someone else.

Nonetheless, I hope you'll continue to contribute here as you see fit.

I edited my above post to add a link to a new thread, ainly because I would like to see what others thought without distracting from your OP

I would like to think we could remain on topic a little more.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I think you're remembering our Declaration of Independence 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

The Declaration technically carries no standing in American law; it was sort of our "Dear George" letter to His Majesty.

Don't ever apologize for asking questions, at least not in any "thread" that I concoct.

As to your other issues ...

The First Amendment to our US (National) Constitution states that government will "establish no religion" or prevent "free exercise thereof" ...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]

This applies to the individual States (including Georgia) specifically under the Supremacy Clause (Constitution Article Six, Clause 2) and the Fourteenth Amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Georgia cited both its own Constitution and the US Constitution within the body of the Act in question in the OP, so technically all those statements and requirements are incorporated by reference.

Georgia's State Constitution refers singularly to "God" ... so this is the source of my contention that the meaning of God is going to have to be proven in court.

And I'm waiting on that argument with great anticipation.