I am Christian. If your world view is more rational than mine please come show me.

a reply to: nonspecific

I see we are just going to disagree here, I thought you were looking for different view points to expand your understanding. I never said I was right but that was my belief, If it contradicts yours and you feel the need to argue the point then thats fine

I am sorry if I offended you, but dissecting your statements is exactly what a philosophical analysis is. I am trying to discover why so many people attack the Christian world view when so far I haven;t seen anyone produce a more rational world view. I didn't argue againt your belief because it contradicted mine. i argued against it because it seemed to be internally incoherent or irrational.

All I intended to say was that right and wrong are subjective and I choose to decide on my actions based on circumstance as opposed to predetermined ideals.

How do you know what you choose in a circumstance is right or wrong? There is no standard to which you can appeal to other than your own ethical view if morals are subjective. I personally don't think they are. I don't care if everyone in the world thought it was good to torture you and rape your mother it would still be morally wrong. In your view of ethics if everyone thought it was good to torture me and rape my mother their would be no reason for you to say it was wrong of those people to say it is good. So as we analyze the idea of subjective right and wrong we can see it will lead us right back to ethical nihilism with the existence of a moral illusion each person seems to give themselves. The very fact we are having a discussion about morals seems to imply the existence of a Right and Wrong outside of you and me but hey whatever floats your boat.

originally posted by: AinElohim

there is no such thing as a Roman!

What does this have to do with you making erroneous claims about Mosaic Law vis a vis Civil Law or claiming Roman Law did not influence modern Civil Law?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: nonspecific

prooceded to insult me and those that I know

Who that you "know" did I insult?

"Just saying. gah. Please look further into the 'rede', and archaic English FOR YOURSELF, before jumping on the wagon of some idiotic, poorly educated dimwits who don't know what they're talking about.

whilst proffesing greater understanding.

It's quite obvious that I DO have greater understanding of Wiccan philosophy.

This reminds me of when I asked my son to feed his parakeet and out of laziness he gave it chicken scratch - after which it promptly keeled over dead.

I am happy to end this now and start again?

I don't know....are you?

And if you're not actually asking me, but rather suggesting a truce: I will if you will.

LANGUAGE makes a difference.

Of course I am happy to end this.

As I said you opened you post with a big capital Screech and then basically said I knew nothing and had been listening to idiots that knew nothing, that is why I said you insulted people that I know. I know many wiccans some of them very old and in my opinion wise ones.

You may have more understanding wicca than me but as I said I never chose to go down that route although I respect many of its merits.

As to the Witches "creed" as I called it I googled to see where I thought I may have got it wrong and pulled this from Doreen Valiente's official site, It may explain where my confusion came from.

The Witches Creed

Hear now the words of the Witches,
The secrets we hid in the night,
When dark was our destiny's pathway,
That now we bring forth into light.

Mysterious water and fire,
The Earth and the wide-ranging air,
By hidden quintessence we know them,
And will and keep silent and dare.

The birth and rebirth of all nature,
The passing of winter and spring,
We share with the life universal,
Rejoice in the magical ring.

Four times in the year the Great Sabbat
Returns, and the witches are seen
At Lammas and Candlemas dancing,
On May Eve and old Hallowe'en.

When day-time and night-time are equal,
When sun is at greatest and least,
The four Lesser Sabbats are summoned,
Again witches gather in feast.

Thirteen silver moons in a year are,
Thirteen is the covens array.
Thirteen times as Esbat make merry,
For each golden year and a day.

The power was passed down the ages,
Each time between woman and man,
Each century unto the other,
Ere time and the ages began.

When drawn is the magical circle,
By sword or athame or power,
Its compass between the two worlds lies,
In Land of the Shades for that hour.

The world has no right then to know it,
And world of beyond will tell naught,
The oldest of Gods are invoked there,
The Great Work of magic is wrought.

For two are the mystical pillars,
That stand at the gate of the shrine,
And two are the powers of nature,
The forms and the forces divine.

The dark and the light in succession,
The opposites each unto each,
Shown forth as a God and a Goddess,
Of this did our ancestors teach.

By night he's the wild wind's rider,
The Horn'd One, the Lord of the Shades.
By day he's the King of the Woodland,
The dweller in green forest glades.

She is youthful or old as she pleases,
She sails the torn clouds in her barque,
The bright silver lady of midnight,
The crone who weaves spells in the dark.

The master and mistress of magic,
They dwell in the deeps of the mind,
Immortal and ever-renewing,
With power to free or to bind.

So drink the good wine to the Old Gods,
And dance and make love in their praise,
Til Elphame's fair land shall receive us
In peace at the end of our days.

An Do What You Will be the challenge,
So be it in Love that harms none,
For this is our only commandment,
By Magic of old, be it done!

Eight words the Witches' Creed fulfil:
If it harms none, do what you will!
© Copyright The Doreen Valiente Foundation.

I hope this ends all ill.

a reply to: nonspecific

An Do What You Will be the challenge,
So be it in Love that harms none,
For this is our only commandment,
By Magic of old, be it done!

Eight words the Witches' Creed fulfil:
If it harms none, do what you will!

Perfect.

High five.
Glad we got that straightened out.

easy peasy

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: nonspecific

An Do What You Will be the challenge,
So be it in Love that harms none,
For this is our only commandment,
By Magic of old, be it done!

Eight words the Witches' Creed fulfil:
If it harms none, do what you will!

Perfect.

High five.
Glad we got that straightened out.

easy peasy

Without wanting to go any more off topic I studied a lot of Crowley and remembered that Wicca took the whole of the law and re worded it.

I got wrong and I appologise.

Anyhow moving on...

a reply to: nonspecific

As I said you opened you post with a big capital Screech

A failed attempt at a typed-out 'sound-effect' - like - driving past (or toward) something at speed and then having to slam on the brakes to navigate - whence one lays some rubber on the road in a smelly mess.



I apologize for my abruptness.

a reply to: Rex282

I clearly stated “knowing” the creator God is the only reasonable state of being world view therefore belief in faith of ANY religion(including your Christianity) is false and unreasonable.The nature of religion is to NOT “know” it is only a method of belief through faith(religion).

This simply has no merit as an argument. Saying the nature of religion is to not know??? Thats not the nature of my world view. So its a strawman. I believe we are supposed to prove all things and be ready to give a reasoned defense of any who ask of us. However I also know you can only lead a horse to water you cannot make it drink.

I am positive you cannot understand this at all because of your religion and because you can only “believe through your Belief System religion.That is the dilemma.You cannot “know” the creator God as long as you believe your religion through faith because the only God of your religion (any religion) is not the creator God but is the believer themselves.They have “created” their God in their image(imagination) in their likeness.

Yea I can't understand it because your choice of diction is very confusing and jumbled. It seems to me your saying I cannot know God because I believe that salvation is achieved through faith in Christ? Faith as defined when I use it is the definition: complete trust in someone or something. Just because I believe salvation is achieved through trust in Christ doesn't mean I think that trust is required to realize it is a rational belief? I am positive you won't realize you haven't produced a good argument against my world view..

However the fact remains your beliefs are unreasonable because they are not truth but are only your perception(belief) through observance(faith) of your reality.

The fact that beliefs are based on our perception of reality doesn't mean they are not true...it just means that we can only judge with what we personally have experienced....a little confused as why you call observance faith.....

This conversation probably wouldn't be so confusing if you would let me know what you believe first...

The most reasonable world view is the creator God can only be “known” and is unknowable through religion of any kind.That is exponentially far more reasonable than the unreasonable non truths of religion including your Christianity.

and you have still done nothing to show that this is more reasonable other than claim it.....

a reply to: nonspecific

Awesome.

Let us be an example to others - it takes less than an hour to come to terms with disagreement in things that both parties are willing to discuss.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: nonspecific

Awesome.

Let us be an example to others - it takes less than an hour to come to terms with disagreement in things that both parties are willing to discuss.

Agreed, Now lets all gang up on the Christians.


That was a joke by the way.

What were we talking about?

a reply to: nonspecific

What were we talking about?

John Spencer.

LOL!!!

And I just checked....it was less than two hours , I misspoke. It might take all of two hours for people of separate beliefs to reach agreement.

Now lets all gang up on the Christians.

*rubs hands together, looks around* ----

where are they???

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: AinElohim

there is no such thing as a Roman!

What does this have to do with you making erroneous claims about Mosaic Law vis a vis Civil Law or claiming Roman Law did not influence modern Civil Law?

Rome's Dark Legacy outweighs any contributions they may have made.

Our founding fathers and the Masons who designed all the architecture in Wash DC chose not to acknowledge them,

I suggest you do the same...



PS; I don't know I will have to reread what I posted, it's quite possible I was on about something else though.

And here I am, the lone Discordian in the room. No one to hate my religion. Oh well, you're all going to THUD anyway... poor greyfaces.

But conceptualization is in the eye of the artist. We see what we want and believe lies and truths with no real inkling of which is which.

In reality nothing is true and everything is permitted. Dig?

Hail Eris.

King Kong died for your sins.

Remember Emperor Norton.

a reply to: CagliostroTheGreat

lol!! You lookin' for a fight, brah?

Some of us are chompin' at the bit here.....

(JUST KIDDING).

a reply to: nonspecific

I am still eagerly awaiting your reply. I am curious as to how you reconcile these issues within a subjective ethical view. I personally feel the only rational course you can take is to concede that you are indeed an ethical nihilist in which case I will simply agree that your view on ethics is just as rational as mine and we can move on

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

and remember... Byzantium (Eastern Empire) lasted over 1100 years after Rome was forgotten about.

it just went home...

I can pick a Byzantine piece for you or a new statue if you like

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Thats not philosophical at all. There is such a thing as the Bible so to think about a world view that excludes it wouldn't be rational....

Why wouldn't it be rational there many people that never had the bible, even in recent times the tribes in the amazon. They had a small view of the world but they were doing just fine without the bible.

I know there is a bible but I am asking what if there wasn't a bible but I see you can't think of that concept. It seems the bible defines you and you have already formed your opinion which is better so why ask. Or maybe you have doubts and if you have doubts then set aside your bible and read something else.

Three Taoist quotes

•“I have just three things to teach: simplicity, patience, compassion. These three are your greatest treasures.”

•“To be truly happy and contented, you must let go of the idea of what it means to be truly happy or content.”

Be Content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you.”

People who practice Taoism simply accept the world around them for what it is. Rather than questioning “why” or “why me” they simply envelop themselves with positivity and take everything in life with a grain of salt.

I am not a Taoist but I like their philosophy. With the bible which I have spent a better part of my life reading and learning and going to church there is always one up building thing for every three or so I am not good enough and I am going to hell thing. This is a sin and that is a sin. Or I am better than the other guy because I know the bible and Jesus. So I don't think it is a good world view to have.

Hope that answers your question.

originally posted by: AinElohim
Rome's Dark Legacy outweighs any contributions they may have made.

Irrelevant to the conversation as this has nothing to do with your erroneous historical claims.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I'll get my boxing gloves. But the spiders haven't hatched yet.

Heathens have to stick together but us Discordians like to stick apart.



Deny the Greyface.

All hail Discordia.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: nonspecific

I am still eagerly awaiting your reply. I am curious as to how you reconcile these issues within a subjective ethical view. I personally feel the only rational course you can take is to concede that you are indeed an ethical nihilist in which case I will simply agree that your view on ethics is just as rational as mine and we can move on

Sorry I got distracted.

I will not say that I am an ethical nihilist as that would put me in a group and I do not like bieng labled.

I will however admit that I do what most of us do deep down in that we make it up as we go along and hope we make the correct decision based on the information at hand.

If you feel that your way works for you then never let anyone tell you otherwise or try to disuade you otherwise.

Only you are in your head when you need to fall at sleep at night, It is only yourself you need to be at peace with.

Everyone else and there ideals can go jump.

Other than me of course, my way is the bestest.

Are any of you (especially Servant) going to look at the thread that I coinky-dinkally posted without reading this one?
Nature, Man and Woman: Alan Watts, copyright 1958