I am Christian. If your world view is more rational than mine please come show me.

You picked a very touchy subject to post here and expect to have a rational, unemotional discussion. But, more power to you.

Here is something I came up with after having to endure the brainwashing of others beliefs growing up.

I am not saying anything about your belief system or saying ANYONE is right or wrong. I just found something that works for me.

Let's see how rational this is in relation to all the "religious" beliefs out there.

1. ALWAYS tell the truth.
2. Do not violate the rights of your fellow man.
3. If you have a belief in a god, keep it to yourself.
4. Do not spend more than you have.

And here is one that no one has answered yet for me...

"Why doesn't GOD just "forgive" Satan and the whole story goes away?

Good luck in not getting bashed on this thread OP....

ISO

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Prezbo369

If that is so whats the better alternative. i am not here to convert you to my world view. I am here to let me show me yours is rational and coherent.

Pretty much any world view is stronger/better than yours. Yours makes massive assumptions about a great many things and for no good reason, in other words with no evidence. The very foundation of your world view (the supernatural) is straight from a childrens tale.

I don't have a label for my own personal 'world view' but it rests on a bedrock of evidence. The complete antistasis of yours....

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

There are different world views held by different denominations of Christians.

Which is why I called the Basis of my world view the Bible and not a denomination......

a reply to: Prezbo369

Pretty much any world view is stronger/better than yours. Yours makes massive assumptions about a great many things and for no good reason, in other words with no evidence.

The second argument from omniscience to come to the thread. This would require you to know exactly what I believe and why I believe it. You do not. So lets not pretend.

. Lets take the first the basis of your world view..."evidence". So are you an ethical nihilist?

If you want something philosophical then what if there were no such thing as the bible. How would your world view be? Between Adam and Moses there are 2500 years according to the bible.

Why so long without the written word then it is done by piece meal over another 2000 years.

So who are you without the bible? Would you be the same or different? Why is biblical view right above others? Is it not the same?

Do we want to be stuck with the first windows operating system MS DOS(bible or any other holy book) or do we improve and move on to windows 8.0 and beyond.

a reply to: BlueMule

I was feeling yuchy this morn ... and this thread wasn't helping... until your offerings appeared.

So thanks, Blue...

Reminds me that Sanskrit begins to approach God as trying to describe what it is NOT... as nothing can be said about it's qualities.

Anyway, always touching and hopeful seeing ministers among the lepers ... lepers, in this case, being fundies... but they may shed the imprisoning walls of dogma and be free someday... well, that's what god told me, anyway... skoal.

a reply to: Mister_Bit

Well, good points but then the "big bang THEORY" is only a theory. Correct?

Well lets first remember the question asked here is what is more rational. The question is not what do you and I know with certainty. As it stands your idea that the universe is eternal is less rational than the idea the universe had a beginning. So that was simply my point. This world view is not the most rational because at current point in time the evidence says others ways

What if "the big bang" of our universe is only like a raindrop falling in a sea? The universe is obviously very important to us but could be no more than a natural occurrence in an infinitely large megaverse.

Again no good model for an eternal megaverse. Even those model suggest the megaverse would have had a beginning. Unless your aware of one that I am not.

Humans have this strange habit of thinking because they don't understand something, then that something must be magical or illogical... remember it is mankind that created science, mathematics, physics... they are all man made constructions.

Science, mathematics, physics...why do you even assume these work in your world view?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Greetings good Christian. My views can be best described as pantheistic.

The reason I think it is far greater than any theism is that everything around me is divine, holy and sacred, whereas for theism, nothing is.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Prezbo369
The second argument from omniscience to come to the thread. This would require you to know exactly what I believe and why I believe it. You do not. So lets not pretend.

You outlined your worldview in the OP, my response is directly to that description, no escape there im afraid...

Lets take the first the basis of your world view..."evidence". So are you an ethical nihilist?

Morals? you talk of a universe creating space ghost, and now want to focus on a tiny tiny fragment of that universe? lol desperate much?

I believe morals are subjective to the society or culture you're immersed in. What is moral to us may not be moral to people from another culture, and who the **** are we to impose our morality on them?

This is probably hard for you to comprehend...

a reply to: celticdog

And something I've never had a religious self- identifying person answer is my query that goes like so:

If God wanted us to know the rules as laid out in the Bible (or some equivalent) wouldn't he etch the rules onto our souls, or brains, or if you are stuck on words, then why not on our forearms (or if wordy, it could continue onto other parts) and let us be born literate?

Why rely on us to invent writing and then rely (relay) on fallible humans to play a game of telephone over generations? Why not write it on the heavens above in a replaying animation, then? Or put in on every rock?

As it stands, it seems He was content to wait eons and then let us pervert it as we see fit... so it's likely not very important... not as important as nature, anyway, where it is all actually written out.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Mister_Bit

Well, good points but then the "big bang THEORY" is only a theory. Correct?

Well lets first remember the question asked here is what is more rational. The question is not what do you and I know with certainty. As it stands your idea that the universe is eternal is less rational than the idea the universe had a beginning. So that was simply my point. This world view is not the most rational because at current point in time the evidence says others ways

What if "the big bang" of our universe is only like a raindrop falling in a sea? The universe is obviously very important to us but could be no more than a natural occurrence in an infinitely large megaverse.

Again no good model for an eternal megaverse. Even those model suggest the megaverse would have had a beginning. Unless your aware of one that I am not.

Humans have this strange habit of thinking because they don't understand something, then that something must be magical or illogical... remember it is mankind that created science, mathematics, physics... they are all man made constructions.

Science, mathematics, physics...why do you even assume these work in your world view?

On one hand you say it is impossible for the universe to have no beginning or end and then say god has no beginning or end.

See the irony?

Like I said before, just because we don't understand or comprehend something does not make it impossible.

As for mathematics, science etc etc... I think you totally misunderstood my point. I DON'T have any faith in them, they are manmade and I believe that man is arrogant to the point of insanity to think that they understand everything.

So, what is more plausible?

A universe that always existed that we as man don't fully understand..

or.. a god, that created himself as his own son, to save mankind, his own creation, that he created with flaws, even though god is flawless so that to be accepted by god he has to love his own son (which is himself) and then crucify himself, so that he can forgive himself and his own creations...... you get the idea.

a reply to: BlueMule

That's because you don't have the background knowledge that is necessary in order to understand my beliefs. You would have spend time studying comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism. Conversely, I have what it takes to understand where you are coming from, because I was a lot like you when I was young

Why are so many people assuming just because they have had some run in with the Bible and Christianity they know my beliefs.....Second you are making an argument of omniscience about what I would and would have the necessary background knowledge to understand.

Also your world view just like mine is bound to change among the individuals you speak with. Not everyone is going to agree with the parallels that you do..

Why don't we just jump right in. What are your views on ethics?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
The topic of this thread wasn't the Christian world view. The topic was alternative world views and their coherence. I elaborated on why I said I cling to the Biblical teachings which many have just taken to mean I am not open to other views. Thats not what I mean at all. All I meant was that what other Christians believe doesn't matter to me.

well that's where all of this was leading up to...

see if you are one of those people who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus (there are many out there)

then Jesus himself could have possibly just been an Ancient Greek Philosopher (a man)

looking at history one could sure jump to that conclusion very easily...

Rome basically discovered Christianity already there in the Near East.

How's that for an alternative take?

gadling.com...

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
The purpose of this thread is for those who think their world view is more rational than an accurate biblical world view to put their world view up for philosophical debate.

Really?
I'm pretty sure the sole purpose of this thread was to troll the off topic section...

So only inaccurate, unbiblical views are allowed to be debated in this thread?

a reply to: Eunuchorn

Are you the hall-monitor?

Try answering his question.

a reply to: Mister_Bit

On one hand you say it is impossible for the universe to have no beginning or end and then say god has no beginning or end. See the irony?

Its quite clear you don't understand the cosmological argument which is what your refuting.

The premises are as follows:

What ever begins to exist has a cause.

The universe began to exist therefore the universe has a cause.

So lets stop here. The evidence says this universe began to exist, therefore it is more rational to assume it has a cause than for it to be an eternal uncaused cause. If the universe began to exist that means space and time began to exist. The cause must therefore transcend space and time as space and time are its effect. So the cause of the universe or multiverse(which ever it maybe) is logically eternal.

or.. a god, that created himself as his own son, to save mankind, his own creation, that he created with flaws, even though god is flawless so that to be accepted by god he has to love his own son (which is himself) and then crucify himself, so that he can forgive himself and his own creations...... you get the idea.

I have tried to understand where you are coming from without making any assumptions as to what you believe the least you could do is give me the same respect. Just because you know the Bible is the basis of my world view doesn't mean you understand it in the least. That requires you to get to know my beliefs through conversation..

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: BlueMule

That's because you don't have the background knowledge that is necessary in order to understand my beliefs. You would have spend time studying comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism. Conversely, I have what it takes to understand where you are coming from, because I was a lot like you when I was young

Why are so many people assuming just because they have had some run in with the Bible and Christianity they know my beliefs.....Second you are making an argument of omniscience about what I would and would have the necessary background knowledge to understand.

Also your world view just like mine is bound to change among the individuals you speak with. Not everyone is going to agree with the parallels that you do..

Then I suggest your next thread be, 'Why I think I'm not like all the other religious fundamentalists out there'.

Why don't we just jump right in. What are your views on ethics?

Ethics are part of the sociological function of myth. 'Myth supports and validates the specific moral order of the society out of which it arose. Particular life-customs of this social dimension, such as ethical laws and social roles, evolve dramatically. This function, and the rites by which it is rendered, establishes in members of the group concerned a system of sentiments that can be depended upon to link that person spontaneously to its ends.' www.folkstory.com...

Christianity has become dysfunctional, in that the cosmological function of myth has been taken over by science. The mystical function has been retarded by paranoia. And the psychological function has been buried under literalism.

That pretty much leaves the sociological function. So I'm not surprised you try to turn the conversation to ethics.

👣

The Bible was written as a guide. Much of the old testament was attached to show us what went wrong.

When Moses came down from the Mountain he got really mad at the people for making the calf. He melted down the gold and threw some of the molten gold in the water and made the people drink it. They got sick, the gold infused water caused a lot of discomfort and poisoned them. He then told the Levitites to kill most of the Israelis that he had just supposedly saved.

So who was god punishing when he made them wander around in the wilderness for forty years. God just handed Moses the ten commandments that said "thou shall not kill" and what did he do. Now who was being punished for this act, Moses could not go into civilization with survivors knowing of this act he had done. That was a crime back then too. Moses died out in the wilderness, never being allowed to go into the city in the end.

They have twisted the story to say that the people were being punished, what people, all of the people who worshiped the calf were killed. Only a few of the young girls seem to have been spared and those loyal to Moses. God was punishing Moses and the levitites for breaking one of his commandments.

This is my interpretation of that event, but I am sure they do not teach that in Sunday school or church. This is not addressed correctly in the movie. Now, the teachings of Jesus were good but throughout history those teachings have been twisted by those who desire power, just like the event of Moses.

The bible is a good book. The teachings of the New Testament do not coincide with what I see is happening today. Jesus never says to kill people because they do not accept his teachings, he never says you have to be poor to receive salvation. Back then, as it is today, a lot of rich people get rich because they make people think that what they sell is a necessity, it is not the case most times. I can't even count the number of times I bought something to make life easier only to abandon using it after a while because it actually complicated things. The biggest thing to remember is that we should be here to enjoy the experience of life. We make it hell by wanting way more than we need. An occasional Soda as a treat once a week will not harm most of us but drinking it every day can cause problems. Yet many feel they deserve to have it every day because they earned the privilege. They usually pay dearly for their excessive wants during their lifetime.

Sorry for steering in the wrong direction OP. I believe in god but my god only punishes you when you mess up. Satan only tempts us, if you take the bait, you become hooked into a life of deceit and dealing with other deceivers. You have an option though, you can leave that way of life and opt for the life of truth, the life Jesus talked about, the life with less wants and disappointment in yourself from finding that you have believed a lie. You do not have to go to church to follow the teachings of Jesus and other great profits in the world who taught that truth and treating other living creatures well should be your path.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
My view is simply that I do not accept that the "big bang" is the beginning of our state of being.. I do not accept that science has the answers, I do not accept that the "big bang" came from nothing.

Now, regardless of what "our" science points towards as evidence, I do not accept it because we "created" science and mathematics.. it's our toybox, so we write the rules. Most people accept that the "big bang" came from nothing but that is simply because they cannot think bigger or do not understand what "nothing" is.

As I see it, the big bang could be no more than a silent 'pliff' than a creation event.

a reply to: AinElohim

What kind of history are you talking about? Christianity STARTED in the Roman Empire. Rome took over Greece in the BC years also known as before Christ. Therefore Christianity didn't exist then. The religion that Rome appropriated from Greece was Greece's Pantheon of the Gods. Where do you get this revisionist history from exactly?