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I am Christian. If your world view is more rational than mine please come show me.

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posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 12:02 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb




We are talking about morals. This is not a question for physical Science.


So, basically your saying that morality can't be discussed logically, because "belief".....

Empathy can be explained "scientifically". And, empathy explains morality.



I don't think evil exist as a value in and of itself. I think evil is the absence of something that does exist, Good.


That is such an absurd statement! There are shades of God's absence everywhere!


You know what I think? I think that our time arrow points in the direction of chaos. Entropy is lord! You know it, I know it, everyone will succumb to entropy and die. It makes you feel better to believe there's a backward parallel universe, where God lives, where all things lead to perfection!




posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 12:05 AM
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Everything is shades of grey...

If we really want to reduce everything to black and white, the only rational view for anything unknown (that's anything without externally verifiable facts... such as the nature of the universe, or God, or infinity, etc...) is "I don't know".

All other views that claim to "know" are irrational.

As for morals, they only exist within context... or put another way; the context of any given situation is what will define the moral framework for that situation.

Since a transcendent consciousness is an unknown, that leaves the only rational approach to morals being that they are an individuals' construct developed within the context of a person’s life to base decisions on.
edit on 17-3-2015 by puzzlesphere because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 12:10 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Eunuchorn

Lol Eunuchorn if you had to label your world view what would it be?



Hmm, idk, misanthropic?



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 12:27 AM
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a reply to: Eunuchorn

LOLOLOLOLol



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 12:38 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

There really is no more rational world view than that, just watch a few minutes of MSM & tell me I'm wrong, lol



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 01:08 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: akushla99




...yet you credit that an Almighty can create a creature as its rival, that it cannot defeat...instantly... What is apparent is that you are confusing logic with sense.


Lol what is apparent is that you presuppose that I have a belief I don't have..Just because you have glanced at the Bible doesn't mean you understand my beliefs. Your point about is a strawman. God has already defeated Satan in the Biblical world view...nor does God consider him a rival. If Satan was a literally a rival why would Satan need God's permission to mess with Job?


I'm running on the OP title genius...
If you hold different views to the majority of christians, you have not made this clear; neither have you told anyone how they may differ...but have asked respondants to compare rationalities...disingenuous...

One of the biggest mistakes being made by you in this thread, is claiming presupposition...a very easy claim to make - you have NOT illustrated 'your worldview' to be compared against...instead, baiting in the OP question with a simple 'I am christian'...disingenuous...

If god has already defeated a satan in the worldview, then there is nothing to tempt...and revelations is the ravings of early onset dementia...which I incidentally believe it is...

Job

If God is the essence of goodness, why play a game of misery and wretchedness that a satan might need permission to wreak? I don't find that odd, I find it evil...which is the polar opposite of goodness...surely an Omniscient, Omnipotent being has more intelligent ways to get the message across to an ant, like Job...

Irrational behaviour, right there, in your little example...please, explain this to me 'in the biblical worldview' I'm all ears...

Å99



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 09:32 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb

I gave you two points. A finite universe that points to a transcendent cause. A moral law that points to a conscious standard of Good. These are not proof they are evidence.


But, they aren't evidence of Christianity in particular. Christianity isn't the only religion with a creation story. And even if it was evidence of Christianity, it isn't evidence that your exegesis is the most internally consistent one. Your exegesis can't transcend your culture; your religion. But the esoterica of the Bible does.

So, you are only consistent with the Bible insofar as your interpretation of it not only includes it but transcends it.

What else would you expect from Transcendent Divinity? "Oh sure God, you can transcend time and space. You can shine through all things. But please, don't transcend my religion. Limit yourself. I'm used to demonizing other religions, not finding you in them."

You seem to be stuck on the crunchy exoteric crust with all the other fundamentalists.



In addition, it isn't clear that the God of Genesis is the creator ex nihilo. There could be a mistranslation.

It could be that the universe is infinite, and God is not creator but emanator.

👣


edit on 701Tuesday000000America/ChicagoMar000000TuesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 10:25 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Prezbo369
I wasn't offended I just don't see how that helps either of us progress in our understanding of one another.


It has to do with the question in the OP, it's one of the reasons why your worldview is irrational.



You did no such thing. You said morals are subjective. To which I asked you a simple question. Doesn't this reduce to moral nihilism? There is no such thing as Morals. To which you responded :

Don't know don't care.

This is the last time I am going to attempt to have a conversation with you. If you are just here to troll. Troll away but it will be ignored.


Yet again you attempt to sway the exchange over to morals and ethics when that isn't the question posed in the OP.

If your not going to respond to answers given to the question in the OP and instead insist on asking different and irrelevant questions, then I'm going to call this a troll thread and call you a troll.

Your entire 'worldview' is based on no evidence whatsoever, and as such it's incredibly irrational.




posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 12:08 PM
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a reply to: Prezbo369

Argument from omniscience. Everything you said requires you to already know what I believe....you don't.....you don't know why I believe what I believe either....conversations done though enjoy your food troll.



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 12:46 PM
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a reply to: akushla99




I'm running on the OP title genius... If you hold different views to the majority of christians, you have not made this clear; neither have you told anyone how they may differ...but have asked respondants to compare rationalities...disingenuous...


Well its quite obvious you didn't read past the title of the OP or hardly any of my responses to see what I have already said before you jumped in on a conversation that was on the existence of morals. A conversation with nonspecific explains my view pretty well on morals. So let me go ahead and point out where I made it clear I was not here defending the Christian religion, and that the views of other Christians don't have anything to do with my beliefs.


OP:
I am Christian. I don't cling to any teachings other than the Bible.I am not here defending the Christian religion. My world view is that of a biblical world view.


First comment of mine after the OP: " I made the statement about only adhering to Biblical teachings so I wouldn't get a lot of people coming on here attacking beliefs of young earth creationist or catholics orpentecostal. I wanted them to know that what I believe comes from my own personal views. "

2nd Page:"I elaborated on why I said I cling to the Biblical teachings which many have just taken to mean I am not open to other views. Thats not what I mean at all. All I meant was that what other Christians believe doesn't matter to me."

I made it clear you just haven't taken the time to try and understand me. I am sincerely here trying to understand others. Comparing our world views is the best way to do that. The only way to compare world views is to focus on different what each person believes about different aspects of reality.




One of the biggest mistakes being made by you in this thread, is claiming presupposition...a very easy claim to make - you have NOT illustrated 'your worldview' to be compared against...instead, baiting in the OP question with a simple 'I am christian'...disingenuous...


I have also already mentioned to prezbo that I didn't put a bunch of arguments in the OP to avoid getting steamrolled as I already have multiple conversations going on at once. People said it was funny that I steered the conversation morals, but I only did that cause that allows me to have multiple conversations but one topic. It also shortens the need for me to explain myself to each person as their questions may be answered in other comments. I have no problem if each individual conversation evolves from away from morals. There is no way for me to accurately communicate my world view to you without rational discourse, and there is no way for me to accurately understand yours without rational discourse.

One of the biggest mistakes you have made is presupposing that you know what "Christians" believe. You keep talking about the majority of Christians, but your argument doesn't even properly address the most basic Christian world view. A lot of people seem to think they get to tell me what my world view is because I have mentioned I base it off the Bible, you don't. I haven't assumed anything about your beliefs so show me the same respect.




If god has already defeated a satan in the worldview, then there is nothing to tempt...and revelations is the ravings of early onset dementia...which I incidentally believe it is...


Again this question wouldn't even be a question if you knew Christian theology......you keep making strawmans...even the majority of Christians would agree with the answer I would give you because its basic theology....something you obviously lack knowledge of...i can't argue with ignorance..




I don't find that odd, I find it evil...which is the polar opposite of goodness...


This statement assumes their is such a thing as evil, I haven't seen you give a reason I should believe there is such a thing from your world view. This word either has meaning or doesn't depending on your world view.




If God is the essence of goodness, why play a game of misery and wretchedness that a satan might need permission to wreak?


He didn't play a game. Nor was it a bet like so many like to pretend. God already knew the outcome, he is omniscient. What is shown in Job? That no matter what Satan does to God's people they will never be taken from his hands. Those who know God and his love can't be snatched from God by Satan. God rewards Job greatly for enduring this. God never does anything unjust, but all of this is way to far ahead and you have no clue why I would believe any of it....which is why I am trying to get you to have a philosophical discussion rather than just bashing the bible..



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I also don't need to return answers based on assumption (specifically, in relation to 'my knoeledge, which you also 'seem' to know a lot about...lol).

Your 'rationale' (and I have followed this thread since it appeared) seems to revolve very much around your opinion, backed up by the bible, backed up by your opinion...with a smattering of science (which has its own limitations)...and that's ok with me...however, if the thread were overtly about 'morals'...you have been given the answer in philosophical and non-philosophical terms (for, and against your opinion)...null game...

Å99



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 04:01 PM
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a reply to: Eunuchorn



There really is no more rational world view than that, just watch a few minutes of MSM & tell me I'm wrong, lol


You're not wrong.
I feel the same way...



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 05:26 PM
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a reply to: akushla99

No one other than nonspecific has engaged in a conversation with me. I listened to him he listened to me. I answered his questions and he took what he could from it and I took what I could from his responses. I think we both grew even if it wasn't in the same way. You haven't once asked me what I believe about a topic. Or asked me why? The truth is the majority of my rational comes from my love of logic and philosophy.

I am glad your okay with what you think you know about my world view. Why don't you see if what you think you know is actually true? Just be a person, a friend, and don't be so judgmental before you actually know what I believe and why. I don't know what you believe. So why don't you tell me? I may not agree with you, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from one another.



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 05:59 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


No one other than nonspecific has engaged in a conversation with me.

Bull feces (big steaming pile) pie.

You are very selective in your memory (as most of us are), and unfortunately for you - the thread is on the record. Many people have attempted to engage you in conversation. He might well have been the one who pushed the brick out of the wall, but he is by no means the only member who has attempted to engage you in conversation.



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 06:17 PM
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a reply to: BlueMule




But, they aren't evidence of Christianity in particular. Christianity isn't the only religion with a creation story.


Here is a list of the of the creation myths wiki considers ex nihilo:


Debate between sheep and grain
Barton cylinder
Ancient Egyptian creation myths
Genesis creation myth (Christianity and Judaism)
Islamic creation myth
Kabezya-Mpungu
Māori myths
Mbombo
Ngai
Popol Vuh
Rangi and Papa

choose which ever one you would like to discuss first and lets take a journey together, or you may choose one not on the list if you have another.




So, you are only consistent with the Bible insofar as your interpretation of it not only includes it but transcends it.


My interpretation of it doesn't transcend it. If you a person can show me that it is they have a better interpretation of the passage using then I will gladly concede. All interpretations are not equally valid. Thats simply a fact as many people don't research the original language because they just don't care enough.




You can shine through all things. But please, don't transcend my religion. Limit yourself. I'm used to demonizing other religions, not finding you in them


If the Bible is truly the word of that Transcendent Divinity it has no need to transcend its self? The Bible would be immanent act of the transcendent God in my world view. As would Jesus. I am not asking you to believe that though. you obviously believe in a creator God who is transcendent and immanent. What do you use to determine what truely his imminence in a religion or just man-made knowledge? I am assuming the parallels between the religions but I don't want to misunderstand you.




You seem to be stuck on the crunchy exoteric crust with all the other fundamentalists.


How do you read Genesis 5?




In addition, it isn't clear that the God of Genesis is the creator ex nihilo. There could be a mistranslation. It could be that the universe is infinite, and God is not creator but emanator


We can get into that if the first creation myth you want to discuss is genesis.



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 06:27 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


Genesis creation myth (Christianity and Judaism)

I choose this one.

Now. 'ex nihilo' means "out of nothing" - is that correct? So, wiki considers that list of things to be 'manufactured out of nothing.'. is that right?

Because - to me, what that means is that those things listed are total fabrications based on no evidence.

Ex nihilo is a Latin phrase meaning "out of nothing". It often appears in conjunction with the concept of creation, as in creatio ex nihilo, meaning "creation out of nothing"—chiefly in philosophical or theological contexts, but also occurs in other fields.
en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 3/17/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 07:00 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Finally! A response that I can sink my teeth into. Rest assured I will. Not literally, of course, since I don't have many teeth anymore.

Just a friendly heads-up. I'll be choosing the Babylonian creation story.

www.religioustolerance.org...


The Bible would be immanent act of the transcendent God in my world view. As would Jesus. I am not asking you to believe that though.


Oh, but I do believe it. What's more, all sacred texts and all mystics are. Not just the Bible and Jesus. I am not asking you to believe that though.


What do you use to determine what truely his imminence in a religion or just man-made knowledge?


Well, if I take your meaning correctly, the answer would be a) Divine inspiration, and b) comparative religion. I can see the esoteric threads that run through the entirety of world religion and myth.

More tomorrow. Good night bro.

👣



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 07:17 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

No. That is a list of cretionmyths that claim the crstion from.nothing



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 08:05 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

No one other than non-specific has really gotten a straight answer to specific questions (why this is so, is a question best answered by psychology)...I have stated absolutes (which you may have missed) that go some way to forming a picture of what I might believe...first case in point (related to God creating a rock)...How almighty is the God you believe in, that it would 'create' the circumstances for an adversary, so great (evidenced by its role in the bible) that it could not poof into kingdom come?...i.e. What was the use of creating a being who could change its nature so much that it becomes the third wheel in the narrative, when God is outside time?

Your answers to this one question (haha IMHO) have been circular and met with disengagement, manifesting as 'whateva you think I think'...or, that wasn't my question, or, I was really talking about morality...take your pick...

The hubris that would limit the Godhead and a 'saviour' to this one miniscule speck of chip off a grain of everything created is beyond comprehension...(not that you said that!)...All cosmologies describe the supreme being, in exactly the same way - basically timeless & boundless - this is not an error...but, it flies in the face of science that says 'the' universe, is finite...remember, all cosmologies speak of the whole of creation. Genesis in this light, represents the creation of a universe (local)...that in no way, discounts that it is not the ONLY universe; just the one we inhabit, and can barely see the edges (?) of...by observation...The uppity angel of light (being part of the local universe team)..."let us make man in OUR image"...was rendered incommunicado - after having posse'd 1/3 of the middle management staff.
Clearly, there is a stark difference between the God of the old and new testaments...janus-like, almost chalk and cheese...they are not the same God.
The CEO sends his own son to get the project, back on MESSAGE. Human does what human does, and all of it is HIS/HERstory.

The end.

Å99



posted on Mar, 17 2015 @ 08:12 PM
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originally posted by: akushla99
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

No one other than non-specific has really gotten a straight answer to specific questions (why this is so, is a question best answered by psychology)...


I am sorry for butting in, but Psychology for the most part is pseudoscience.

The decisions and definition of morals and ethics are best left to philosophers and bishops or (spiritual leaders if you will)

Psychology is as crackpot as Astrology!

---

I mean you only have to page down 6 times just to get the gist of the tip of the iceberg here because a lot of the stuff is foundational.

Better off playing with houses made of cards or dominoes.

en.wikipedia.org...


edit on 17-3-2015 by AinElohim because: (no reason given)




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