Your freedom to move, to speak, to quietly enjoy and carry out your own affairs, every freedom that you yourself talk about when you recite a patriotic poem about dying for freedom, is being eroded away as you stand by as a cheerleader. It is done by the use of language you enjoy, like 'war on terror' and 'US Patriot Act'. You are part of a growing police state that has nothing whatsoever to do with principles of freedom.

I might hate Bush to a degree, but I still prefer to look at this administration as a one season sitcom which sensible people of all political persuasions have already grown tired of.

Boy I wish I had clicked on this thread earlier its facinating.

Jedimaster, you have to admit that the two cornerstones of america are
1 Democracy and
2 The right of free speach

Democracy means that people CAN disagree with the way the country is run, or with what it has become. To take away that right is to turn it into a facist state.

The right of free speach means that people CAN say what they feel like about America.

If you are a true american you would defend the right of Illmatic etc to say what they want to the death, even if you don't believe it.

To say otherwise , to label them as "not" american or unamerican is to deny them the right to speak their mind. That would make YOU unamerican.

This highlights a basic confusion in the minds of many americans, that people have a RIGHT to protest, that it is not UNamerican to disagree with the way the country is run if they don't like it.

But people who protest are probably MORE AMERICAN because they are taking an unpopular stand on the basis of their ethics - its easy to be a redneck and to label people as communisits etc, its harder to shand and fight for what you think is right.

Politicians MUST allways be able to justifiy their actions and be open in their decision as they are meant to represent the people who voted them in.

That is why Bush et al lying about the WMD is so terrible, the president may have manufactured evidence, or may have not been balanced about the evidence to attack Iraq to justifiy what HE wanted to do.

True demorcacy is being seen in England at present as the opposition are fighting to find the truth.

Democracy is NOT being seen in America where the truth is trying to be twisted or hidden. The leadership are NOT accountable to the people who elect them.

Thats what makes protesters in america so American.

[Edited on 4-6-2003 by Netchicken]

Actually Jedi, you enflamed the discussion with your "ignorant" and "complete idiot" comments.

[Edited on 4-6-2003 by Thorfinn Skullsplitter]

I've been busy and would like to now respond to LOBO's original post.

LOBO: Why is catching Saddam and/or Osama your yard stick for measuring the success in Iraq or the war on terror?

I hear that all the time 'we didn't catch Saddam/bin laden' - granted, I wish they would. BUT, would it then be a success to you if either were caught? Then what?

I don't think anyone that opposed the war was un- American per se. But, it's a 2 way street. The Dixie Chicks opposed the war and were boycotted to which they concluded, it seemed, that 'there was no free speech' - aren't people equally free to boycott them? I always seem to smell a little bit of hypocrisy in those that opposed the war.

However, when you invade Antartica, do call, that sounds fun.

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
- Hermann Goering, Hitler's designated successor, before being sentenced to death at the Nuremberg trials.

Anyway - this is why I'm against "American thinking": "I'm right, you're wrong - I support America 100%, no matter what the government chooses to do and to whom. I will die to protect my President, and will look down upon anybody who disagrees with American principles and values." People like this sound strikingly similar to the ancient Samurai - they were total conformists who bowed to their overlord's every request, would die thoughtlessly for him, and would commit suicide for him, if necessary. How intelligent does this sound? Not very, huh. This is exactly what Americans (soldiers, especially) are willing to do - in a disguised way.

And what does being a "better American", "being brave by serving the military" and dying for your country prove? That you are an American? By definition, an American is one who is a citizen of America...why prove it other than showing your birth certificate? It proves that you support America in everything it does - good or bad. That's not ignorance - it's stupidity.

Well interesting disscussion you guys got going here. Just for the record I agree with what Thorfinn Skullsplitter and Skadi have said. So I guess im a baffoon and anti-american like Jedi said.

So you have no sympathy for those who died? Do you feel pain for them at all?

I have more sympathy for them then you will ever understand. You seem incapable of grasping this simple concept.

The fact that they died for nothing under the guise they were fighting for something good and noble is the greatest waste of all. They were lied to. They joined the service under the impression that they had a great country ruled by just and fair men who sent them off to fight for the good of people everywhere. And they died with this belief. But they died only to further the goals and desires of very evil and ignoble people. Thier motives for joining the military were good. They believed in what they thought they were fighting for. But they were sacrificed, thier lives tossed away by leadership that will callously shed all the blood they can to get what they want. And thus, those who died ins ervice of this govornment, died to further its twisted aims, and not for the reasons they felt.

I would rather morals than civil rights.

Thats as dangerous as the liberal ideal of security over rights. Its that mindset that is killing the constitution. And besides, who are you to dictate morals? Whats moral for you is a sin to another, and vice versa. Morality is relevant to the moral makers.

So I guess im a baffoon and anti-american like Jedi said.

Could think fo worse things to say.

And jedi, you are right, i do hate Bush. hes destroying America, selling it out to the highest bidder. So yes, I hate him and his anti American govornment that fosters him. He is a vile traitor and should be charged.

I think we need someone who is right-wing to comment on thsi as well. So far, everyone has blamed me andf so on and so forth. Why not have TC comment on this? If TC says I was wrong with my view and how I handle this, I will admit I handled this in a poor fasion.

[Edited on 6-5-2003 by JediMaster]

I think we need someone who is right-wing to comment on thsi as well. So far, everyone has blamed me andf so on and so forth. Why not have TC comment on this? If TC says I was wrong with my view and how I handle this, I will admit I handled this in a poor fasion.

I dont think they are "blaming" you for anything. They are simply stating their opinion just as you did.

Originally posted by JediMaster
I think we need someone who is right-wing to comment on thsi as well. So far, everyone has blamed me andf so on and so forth. Why not have TC comment on this? If TC says I was wrong with my view and how I handle this, I will admit I handled this in a poor fasion.

[Edited on 6-5-2003 by JediMaster]

Sorry, I haven't read the thread, I just hit the tail end to see what was the last word.

I read the opening statement and realized that this extremely worn out garbage was not something I wanted to join.

Have you flamed anyone?

Have you used profanity or attempted to circumvent the censor?

Have you knowingly lied?

If the answers are "no" to all the above, I think you did well and are an asset to the community, no matter what your position is.

Jedi, from previous history, I'm sure you did well.

Ok I'd like to comment on the "I would rather have morals than rights" thing.

Skadi says that is as dangerous as the Liberal "Saftey more than rights" thing.

No that's not true.

Because "saftey more than rights" begets slavery.

While "Morals more than rights" no matter what, always begets Freedom.

Because morality is freedom.

Do you think it a coincidence that the very people who thought 40 years ago that the government was evil, and controlling, were the same immoral and indecent hippies, that now are so common place.

Almost all of these immoral and indecent people, think that the Government is doing them wrong, and enslaving them, what makes it even worse, is most of them think that "Liberalism" is the right way to go.

So it's ironic that the immorals in our country are destroying it themselves, and furthering that destruction by supporting a party that supports destroying the constitution to make people "safer".

Immorality is our strongest, and most hiddeous prison, and liberalism if not EDUCATED liberalism, always leads to immorality.

Absolutely. Who was it that said that those who give up liberty for security shall have neither?

The constitution is based upon NAtural law, that is to say, God's law. So is our morality. God wants us to be free, the world wants us to be slaves. The world will offer security, it will offer "peace". Peace is nothing more than the absence of violence. That can be forced upon the captive, as it was in the areas that were controlled by the Soviet Union for decades.

Darn it. I refused to get sucked into this. I go now!

lobo, you didn't even answer my question. I asked because while you complain about Americans conforming and what not, you just seem to conform to group that opposed the war. I hear over, and over, and over again: the us didn't get saddam, or ubl. It's the same party line, just different sides of the fence, of those you are complaining about.

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by Bob88]

Lobo, Skadi and Illmatic....impressive and brave.
Remember that those you choose not to think for themselves will fear and attack those who do.
Jedi Master... I'm all for you laying down your life for your country...as soon as you possibly can. Please.

The individual act of submission is the cornerstone of authority and all authority is based on aggression.
The first to axioms of power are as follows:
1. The first priority of authority is its own maintainance.
2. The second priority of authority is to prosper financially.
People who say they are ready to die for their country are caught in emotional/romantic quandary. The hide behind nationalism and patriotism to give their "life" a purpose. This is typical of the first stages of primate consciousness . That is the need to identify themselves with something larger thereby increasing their own status accordingly. This psychosis, rightly understood, is part of awakening but all to often becomes the destination rather than a passage to true individual enlightenment. So when I was encouraging JediMaster to lay down his life I wasn't only "making a joke". I am telling him metaphorically to kill of this ego centered reality and move on to the next level. Only the mind truly dies......

nothing is true.

Huh?

Yup, let's all take that attitude. Everyone, get out of the military. Heck with it. Stop serving for narrow-minded citizens that are too caught up in their philosophy to understand that without those willing to stand between them and whatever enemy there is, they'd have no time to be philosophical as those on the run have time only for pragmatic thoughts.

No. Scratch that idea. Those of us who appreciate you, and our friends and families, and the spirit of the Founding Fathers no matter how dim now, we all need you.

I hope you're not a father. You'd throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by Total Enslavement]

How dare you insinuate JediMaster is blindly being a patriot because he feels it gives him purpose in life. How on earth would that give anyone purpose anyway? Everyone has hopes and dreams therefore having a purpose they pursue. Being a patriot is not a purpose in life but an expected stance and I don't believe for a second people follow blindly because they feel it gives them purpose.

It's obvious he is a young man, there is no need to insult him.

"primate consciousness"
Who do you think you are speaking for man-animal?

I don't know who you believe you are, but I assure you that you aren't it. You confuse yourself with someone holding a large wealth of wisdom and convey it with an arrogance that exceeds you.



[Edited on 5-6-2003 by Total Enslavement]

Yo, goofball, you quoted the wrong poster!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Yo, goofball, you quoted the wrong poster!

LOL, I know, I'm sorry.. lemme fix that.

If anything, JediMaster got a taste of what it's like to be the unpopular voice among the crowd...