Originally posted by James the Lesser

Besides, even if Iraq didn't have WMD, should still have gone and kicked out Saddam. Why? He killed people for tearing up his picture in a newspaper, making a Saddam joke, so forth. He gassed his own people!!! At least Hitler gassed the people he considered the enemy.

James

This is an unfortunate outlook.

1. The world has established processes for dealing with bad regimes. The US hijacked the process, and led its populace and several allies into an illegal war based on an orchestrated package of lies.

Whether or not people see the UN as having a role to play, this is what the Bush administration did for the US. And the real agenda was not disclosed at all. Only the lies.

2. I have never seen anyone condoning the genocidal intent of the Third Reich in this way before. I must say it troubles me.

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by Tyriffic

Originally posted by Illmatic67

You should support you country wheter it was right or wrong.

LOL, that's like being a believer in God and loving Satan at the same time.

iLLi matic67, your inanities have reached the point of total inconsequentialistic proprtions............blah, blah...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you live in the United States Of America how can you stand yourself- are you not a hypocrite??


silly ...........................haheho

[Edited on 30-7-2003 by Tyriffic]

A true American criticizes America when it's wrong.

You are only a fake.

You are a true American.
Right. You hate everything about this country because it does not reflect your segregationistic, racist views. Jews and Whites can not get a fair shake in your world Ill67. Truth be known, you haven't lived long enough to know a fake when you see one.
I am not the fake. I know what it means to live with the idea of serving this country you take from every day and ridicule.

You Sir, are the poser. You have no stand except ridicule. You have no stand except accusation. You have no stand to even back up your stand. Your victim mentality has run dry.

The first time I posted controvertedly to your views on this board, you said to me- " wait until you've been here a while, you'll change".

Well, I have not changed. And you have not either. My complaints with America are registered everyday if one reads between the lines.

Fake. Hmm.
You can't even see America when you look in the mirror.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Because the countires you named are civilized, not lead by dictators, and are humane. Saying you better to a country like that is like Micheal Jordan saying he is better than his reflection. No point in it.

Besides, even if Iraq didn't have WMD, should still have gone and kicked out Saddam. Why? He killed people for tearing up his picture in a newspaper, making a Saddam joke, so forth. He gassed his own people!!! At least Hitler gassed the people he considered the enemy.

I don't see us in Zimbabwe kicking out Mugabe? I don't see us in China changing their government. I don't see us In Saudi Arabia where they have beheadings ever Friday. I don't see us in....

" He gassed his own people!!!"

Would you please stop using this inane line OVER and OVER again. He gassed his own people with our FULL support.

[Edited on 1-8-2003 by Colonel]

Illmatic: He called you a fake, a poser, and a racist. You gonna let him call you that????

Well I don't think you are a fake. Being part of America means you are free to critize when you believe wrong is being done. You have the freedom of speech and freedom to protest. It's in the constitution. Therefore no one can stop you for you aren't doing wrong you are just voicing your opinion.

MA, wasn't justifying it. Just pointing out that Hitler gassed people he considered enemies and Saddam gassed his own people.

Second, why not in China? They have more people in their army then we do in our country. Guess why we don't attack them.

Third, Saudi's? They have oil, and if we atacked them, unlike Iraq, the other Arab countries would attack us. Besides, they don't have WMD. So, attack Saudi and get attacked by them and a dozen other countries? Don't think so.

Colonel makes a point. How can you claim that this war was to remove an evil regime? You can't even count all the evil regimes on one hand. Myanmar has been under a state of complete military control with human rights violations occuring every day? Where were the American troops 10 years ago? Laos? Libya? NORTH KOREA ten years ago??

Secondly, those same people Sadam gassed supported Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. They were Kurds and labelled as unIraqi by my estimates the majority of Iraqi's (Kurds make up about 10-15% of the population) population. If that same thing had happened here in America we would be in civil war again. The dissenting population would have been treated the same way as the Kurds, who knows what weapons Bush or any President in this situation would use.

#!

Did you clean the cobwebs and dust off this before you resurrected it?

I wonder whether there has been any progress on the ATS definitions of American and unAmerican in the past three months....

Originally posted by Illmatic67
America- The Land of Oppurtunity... and Mirages...

COMPLETELY.


and i think it's so stupid that you're thought of as unamerican... how stupid. i'll join you in your conquest for taking over antarctica, haha. actually, i've wanted to become president and change a few things.. and then take over the world.


hearts!

You are either with us or against us.

Originally posted by EPLURIBUSUNUM
You are either with us or against us.

...define us...

...I guess even asking that question already excludes me from your us huh...

...oh well, another day another mortal enemy...

As an ATS member from the UK, I have found this discussion extremely interesting. I would like to make some points however:

1) I have NO religious leaning. I don't believe in God, Allah, Mohammed etc but FIRMLY believe other people have the right to believe what they want. What makes my blood BOIL is when these people (not naming anyone!) feel the need to force religion down others' throat. I have had this discussion with someone I studied with and he said "I know it's the truth and I need you to know it too!". WHY? Because many religious people are so firmly entrenched in the belief that they CANNOT see other views on this. In some respects this IS faith!

2) The idea of a COUNTRY being governed by a theocracy fills me with complete and utter DREAD. Religion has provided mankind with it greatest accomplishments and, conversely, it greatest atrocities. What happens when the theocracy suddenly decides that it is opposed to another countries beliefs......religious wars. And when each side KNOWS god (in lowercase) is on their side and that they are right, the potential for escalations is unknown and unknowable.

3) Iraq. WMD have not been found so the excuse now is that we "had to get Saddam out". Sorry but this is another example of Self Referencing Criterion - where we can say that another person/country/religion is WRONG based on our own perceptions. We have absolutley no right to interfere in another country's way of life - even if we deem it to be wrong. Incidentally - under UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention a country is not permitted to invade another for the purpose of "Regime Change".

4) Lastly, because I have read all this in one sitting and am frankly bored, insults are the recourse of a weak mind. If you can't debate someone based on what that person has typed then stay out of it. This is not a free speech issue, it's a debating issue.

But....as a last word....I consider myself English, I love my land and my country but find most of the politicians in this country piss in the same pot. If my country was invaded by a hostile force then, yes, I would take up arms and defend it. But I would not go and die for my Government/King/Queen just as thye would not go and die for me.

PEACE TO ALL!

[Edited on 18-11-2003 by Shaitan]

Originally posted by JediMaster
Ya know, I try to be a nice guy realy. But you Elf are a baffoon. You think your a better American than me?!? Man there is something wrong here. I think you are an Anarchistic Libertarain.

Ya know what. I find what you say offending. Two cousins of mine died at Pearl Harbor, and another one executed by the Japs. My family has always served the USA, and they would die as fast as I would for it.

And while I was off ATS, I bought you and Skull two tickets to Cuba so you can live with a communist bastarad who hates America.

i think anarchistic libertaraian is the exact opposite of a communist....

Jedi: "Oh come on. Enogh BS. What has Bush and his men done? Have they commited genocide? Have they killed for fun? What have they done to commit terror? You saying thats BS, just because you don't like them is ignorant. "

The fact that George W. Bush is, right now, the single most hated person on Earth should tell you something. He goes to visit the US's STRONGEST ALLY in the War on Terror and there are MASSIVE protests. Is the rest of the world wrong for thinking he's a dick?

Dubya has done more harm to America than any other single person in History (yes, more than Osama). Your freedoms are being yanked (Patriot Act), he's pulled out of tons of environmental initiatives (still refusing to sign Kyoto), he STOLE AN ELECTION, he LIED about reasons to go to war (all US soldier deaths are on HIS head), he's been blocking the 9-11 Commission that is investigating the attacks, and he's a bloody moron.

People who "support their country right or wrong" deserve nothing but disdain. Since you supoosedly live in a DEMOCRACY, you have a VOICE that you should use to be heard when your country is doing something that you think is wrong.

What is your opinion of a German citizen living in the late 1930's who KNOWS that the Holocaust is going on, but says "I support my country right or wrong"?

"Here is how I am a better American. I support my country, I love my country. I dont hate the frokin country and the goverment like you."

You support and love your country no matter what? And that makes you better?

That makes you nothing but a CONSUMER, or a sheep, who just goes along with "what you're TOLD is right".

Patriotism is NOT blind, deaf and stupid.

jako

the only thing i think about america is ......eat.......arrogant......best country in world.........must take over.........eat.......eat......like dude totally.............no NHS.........eat
but thats just the way america are portrayed over here andthats my view

Originally posted by FreedomOfSpeech
the only thing i think about america is ......eat.......arrogant......best country in world.........must take over.........eat.......eat......like dude totally.............no NHS.........eat
but thats just the way america are portrayed over here andthats my view

First of all, welcome to ATS.

I don't understand what you are getting at.
and where is "over here"?

BG

but thats just the way america are portrayed over here andthats my view

well maybe you should stop believing the "propaganda"

what country are you living in anyway??

[Edited on 11-24-2003 by sirCyco]

edit: didnt realise how old this is

[Edited on 24-11-2003 by forsakenwayfarer]

James!

Saudi Arabia finances terror! The commit heinous acts against foreigners, women, ect! If you believe in george Bush and his cause, then you should believe in attacking Saudi Arabia!

Saudi Arabia is ten times more dangerous to America than Saddam and his spider fart invisible weapons of mass destruction were! The Saudi Arabians are backstabbing greasy rats who really deserve a regime change.

The Saudis have oil, yes. They grease out palms with one hand, stab us in the back with another.

If Bush REALLY was interested in taking out terrorism, he would have greased that smelly miserable country! But he didnt.

Instead, he went after a nation that was pretty much low concequence. Since Saddam wasnt making huge concessions, Saddam wanted the Euro, saddam wanted to run his own show, we attacked him.

When the Saudis are a worse threat to American security than Bush ever would be.

Colonel makes a good point. What about that racist and butcher Mugabe? Why aint anyone doing anything about him? What about Israel? Now they DO have weapons of mass destruction that the whole world knows about, right in plain view. And they border of being.civilized. Or stable.

No, there was NO justification for taking out saddam. Hes a butcher, so? So are alot of other world leaders.

We defeated the Soviet Union without a shot fired, through patience and guile. We couldnt have smashed Saddam the same way?

I dont think so. Oil Currency. israeli security.

Theres youre reasons for the war, and not a one of them reason enough to waste 400 plus American soldiers on the whole venture.