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Exclusive: From 'Red October' village, new evidence on downing of Malaysian plane over Ukraine

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posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 11:01 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: aboutface
a reply to: Xcathdra

Thanks for the added info. I have to admit I haven't read up enough on the Ukrainian situation. I do remember seeing a couple of pics though. How to explain the bullet holes in the plane if it was downed by a missile?. It feels as if I'm missing some info.



The claim on bullet holes has never been confirmed to my knowledge. The results of the dutch investigation report high velocity impact damage which would not be caused by bullets and the location of that damage, the front of the commercial airliner, again would be problematic since bullets would not have brought the plane down in the manner it did.

It could be within the realm of possibility that any "bullet" holes were caused by individuals on the ground while fighting for control of the area. These questions are exactly why there needed to be an immediate push to secure the scenes of the crash.


So which is it?

This "Dutch investigation" you're quoting that reports "high velocity impact damage would not be caused by bullets" or your own, "that any "bullet" holes were caused by individuals on the ground ".

Because the fuselage in the area directly beside the pilot is FULL of 30 calibre cannon damage!

niqnaq.files.wordpress.com...

Surely an air to air missile couldn't have hit the exact spot the pilot sits with it's "exploding warhead"?

Which of your two statements is the erroneous one?




posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 11:10 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Didn't realize the data from the recorders was released but thanks for that. Was the data independently verified by neutral parties?

II won't bother arguing this anymore but as you can see even from my uninformed position it's arguable. I'll go with my original opinion on this and say it was the rebels and they got a bad lock on an SU25 or at least what they thought was a hostile aircraft and splashed the airliner. A "don't give loaded guns to kids" kinda screwup.

Fog of war and all that. So the blame gets spread around to all the parties more so to some than others and we're no farther ahead.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 12:01 AM
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originally posted by: Kukri
a reply to: Zaphod58

Didn't realize the data from the recorders was released but thanks for that. Was the data independently verified by neutral parties?

II won't bother arguing this anymore but as you can see even from my uninformed position it's arguable. I'll go with my original opinion on this and say it was the rebels and they got a bad lock on an SU25 or at least what they thought was a hostile aircraft and splashed the airliner. A "don't give loaded guns to kids" kinda screwup.

Fog of war and all that. So the blame gets spread around to all the parties more so to some than others and we're no farther ahead.


There is a huge amount of evidence that it was launched by the rebels. You have the voice recordings of them discussing the shoot down. In fact discuss how the BUK got into rebel hands Special delivery from the GRU. There is pictures of it crossing the border and returning to Russia. And there is the other plane they tool credit for shooting down was a military aircraft but again high altitude. And if that isn't enough there was bragging they shot it down on social media before they knew it was a passenger jet. Now we know the missile laugh site at this point there is no doubt left Russia shot down an airliner.

Yes notice I didn't say rebels a bunch of miners wouldn't have hit the plane takes training and practice. And if they had turned it over to the rebels without practice and training would have missed at that altitude. Not to mention probably blown themselves up.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 12:05 AM
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Anyone interested in a different analysis...

How the Malaysian "Boeing" was shot down



A rod from the "air-to-air" missile R-60M was found among the wreckage of MH17


Source



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 12:05 AM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

They use buckshot as shrapnel? Alot of the holes looked like bullet holes.

Edit: Definitely some shrapnel damage but it look likes there are some bullet holes too.
edit on 13-3-2015 by cenpuppie because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 12:54 AM
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originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Kukri
a reply to: Zaphod58

Didn't realize the data from the recorders was released but thanks for that. Was the data independently verified by neutral parties?

II won't bother arguing this anymore but as you can see even from my uninformed position it's arguable. I'll go with my original opinion on this and say it was the rebels and they got a bad lock on an SU25 or at least what they thought was a hostile aircraft and splashed the airliner. A "don't give loaded guns to kids" kinda screwup.

Fog of war and all that. So the blame gets spread around to all the parties more so to some than others and we're no farther ahead.


There is a huge amount of evidence that it was launched by the rebels. You have the voice recordings of them discussing the shoot down. In fact discuss how the BUK got into rebel hands Special delivery from the GRU. There is pictures of it crossing the border and returning to Russia. And there is the other plane they tool credit for shooting down was a military aircraft but again high altitude. And if that isn't enough there was bragging they shot it down on social media before they knew it was a passenger jet. Now we know the missile laugh site at this point there is no doubt left Russia shot down an airliner.

Yes notice I didn't say rebels a bunch of miners wouldn't have hit the plane takes training and practice. And if they had turned it over to the rebels without practice and training would have missed at that altitude. Not to mention probably blown themselves up.


Fact: Ukraine has BUKs
Fact: There's ex-military in pro-Russian forces
Fact: These things auto track once targeted and launch on lock with the press of a button or even remotely.

A kid could operate one of these things! They are semi-automated advanced anti-aircraft systems and are designed to be highly responsive and minimize time to launch. If there was op-for aircraft in the area of operation all it would take is an inexperienced commander to select the wrong target and then you have something really bad happen. In fact it would be even more unlikely for an experienced crew to make such a mistake. Russian crews would also integrate with other command and control systems (depending on system) for target ID and tracking data. I wouldn't be surprised that the Russians have the iff codes for Ukrainian military aircraft.

This is Zaphods specialty so he can clarify or correct if you like.

Buk Missile System



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 12:59 AM
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a reply to: cenpuppie

Essentially yes. They use what are called Rods, that are packed around the explosive in the warhead.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:06 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

His scenario doesn't fit the data. There's no way that plane came apart at less than 7,000 feet. The debris field is from a high altitude breakup.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:14 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:17 AM
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a reply to: Aaamok88

The Su-25 isn't a fighter, it's a ground attack plane. But he never said a fighter couldn't bring down a passenger plane. He said ONE PARTICULAR aircraft used as a fighter couldn't bring this plane down. The flight was operating outside its flight envelope, and the weapons it carries couldn't cause an aircraft the size of a 777 to suddenly and instantly explode.
edit on 3/13/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:17 AM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

I haven`t seen one sound analysis about that yet.

In case of it being a BUK, the change it were the Ukrainians is much more likely with them having them for sure and way more of them...

Half of Ukrainian Fighters Killed by 'Poor Kit and Friendly Fire'



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:19 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:21 AM
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Who benefits from downing that plane

Separatists

Or Kiev puppets

And who told that airplane pilots to flow so low in that route and lower altitude ?

That came from Kiev
edit on 13-3-2015 by Aaamok88 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:21 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Just like at the debris field. For there to be large pieces of fuselage found five miles apart it had to have come apart at high altitude. And once those pieces came off there would be no structural integrity left because of their size. Hell most of the tail section for that matter was found several miles from the rest of the wreckage. If it came apart below 7,000 get the debris field would be much smaller because there would be less time for it to scatter before hitting the ground.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:24 AM
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Sorry dbl post
edit on 13-3-2015 by Aaamok88 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:25 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:36 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:44 AM
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edit on 3/13/2015 by Kangaruex4Ewe because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:49 AM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

I agree it didn`t broke up at low altitudes, but 6000/7000ft is still a decent altitude, and not being an expert on how debris can fall in such cases I have not much to go except you ?...and you haven`t given any credentials about being an actual expert on these kinds of matters.


Q

posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 01:52 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Of note: the R60 is a wholly dedicated IR targeted platform. Designed to fly right up another fighter jet's rear. Never fitted with radar homing. An R60 would never identify the cockpit as the primary heat source for lock-on.

Had an R60 indeed been shot at MH17, said tracking would have homed in on the heat source - engine exhaust - and used those rods to slice the wing right off. Just ask KAL 902. Russia knows full well how this works - they've done it before.

The radar-guided SA-11, fired from the BUK, would target the fuselage and make precisely the patterns described, per design.

All other things being equal...this looks like an SA-11 to me. I even toyed with the idea of ground-based flak, but that plane absorbed waaaaay too much to be anything but a kinetic 'cloud o' shrapnel' from close range, and there's only one way to deliver that in this theater. I can't see AA getting in more than a couple of 'lucky stitches', even with radar guidance.

The BUK was designed for "minimally trained operators to deliver a lethal attack"...key words being minimally trained. Not saying any 16 year old with a permit could hop in and take off, but these things were pointedly designed for anybody to be capable of using.

Not saying this is THE shoe...but the laces do fit kinda snug.



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