Do Not become the thing you hate!

originally posted by: grainofsand
if you live in the UK let me know which region and next time we have a 'problem' I'll suggest they move there for an easy ride with their violent criminal behaviour, as you appear to advocate calling the cops instead of dealing with things as a community, lol.

I don't have criminality problems where I live - at least, not the kind which affects the community with violence issues. Yes, it does has police agents. They are doing their job, and they better be, because their salary comes from our taxes.

The police is part of the community too, you know.

a reply to: tastyrawmeat

There is an old saying..."two wrongs don't make a right"...a good thing to remember. I do very much agree with what you have said.

originally posted by: swanne
The police is part of the community too, you know.

Yep, and the police in my community have turned a blind eye to 'community action' numerous times over the years when a repeat violent offender has had a kicking which has either changed their behaviour or forced them to move away to a community which relies solely on the police.
Perhaps the utopia you live in explains why you cannot understand a community might not rely on police to keep them safe.
Our cops know they're outnumbered (armed only with batons and the handful that carry tazers) so they are happy for the decent folk in the community to control the small percentage of violent offenders.

originally posted by: grainofsand
Perhaps the utopia you live in explains why you cannot understand a community might not rely on police to keep them safe.

Do you know how mafia was created? It was precisely created by this exact thinking.

Our cops know they're outnumbered (armed only with batons and the handful that carry tazers)

What?!

Our police has guns. Actual guns... I feel sorry for you guys...

a reply to: TNMockingbird

I understand, but I know that I personally would not have it in me to do horrific acts upon another living soul. I would wish them dead, and no doubt I WOULD kill, but I just dont have it in my to be cruel. Its an aspect of human nature that we need rid of.

a reply to: swanne
Don't feel sorry for us, murder rates are extremely low, rare as anything, and killing by cops non-existent. 1970's was the last person shot dead by a criminal in a 50 mile radius of my home, no-one in that radius has been killed by any cops.
The strong community ensures that, not guns.
...it is a pity your Utopia requires firearms to keep the peace, and you the gun supporting peace lover who hates violent criminals getting a beating from the community, lol.

*Edit*
...and there are plenty of legally held shotguns in my region, we just don't need to use them on anything other than vermin.

originally posted by: grainofsand

...it is a pity your Utopia requires firearms to keep the peace, and you the gun supporting peace lover who hates violent criminals getting a beating from the community, lol.

For some reasons or another, most criminals here choose to proceed peacefully in the event of an arrest... It seems that some law enforcers here discovered that dissuasion could actually prevent violence.

But of course, some posters here can hardly be expected to understand any strategy that does not involve overt physical violence...

a reply to: swanne
They comply during arrest of course if they think they might get shot, only someone suicidal wouldn't, "suicide by cop" and all that.
I can understand any strategy if it actually works, but in my area the threat of community organised violence against violent offenders works better at keeping violent people under control than court fines, community service, or therapy.
If it doesn't work then they move away, problem sorted for my community.

a reply to: tastyrawmeat

I couldn't agree more about cruelness. Someone being cruel to someone else just for the sake of cruelty or to relieve some strife or inner demons is something I can't agree with.
On the other hand, I personally would have it in me to do horrific things to another living soul who did horrific things to one of my children. It would not change anything that had occurred but, I think it might make it more I don't know, bearable?
If a person commits an atrocity against an innocent child or elderly person, handicapped person what have you (basically someone physically unable to defend themselves) I think that, they, at that moment have become a monster and checked out of the human species and have devolved into a creature that is unable to live in a human society.
I believe you can pity them, feel compassion for whatever drove them to such madness but, I think there still must be some sort of retribution, penalty? There are natural consequences for every choice we make. Good and bad.
I believe I may have rambled off topic and I'm sure there will be consequences for me choosing to express my opinion...

I do agree that the cruelness of some humans' nature should be rid of...

Given the right reason I can and will kill. Do I think I'll continue killing after NO. I do believe an eye for an eye though and see no evil in it of which you speak. Is it evil I don't think so.

a reply to: grainofsand

Well, this is pretty much the end to our debate, would you not agree?

I certainly hope your community stays as peaceful as it is now.

Thank you for the much though-provoking discussion mate.



*bows out*

a reply to: swanne
I thank you for the interesting discussion as well mate, and I hope your community stays safe as well, no matter if our methods differ.

originally posted by: swanne

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
To each their own...

I'll continue to hope that horrific retribution will befall evil entities.

In this life and the next.

And that is supposed to make you the good guy? "Horrific retribution"?

Orwell warned us against this thinking. He warned us against confusing peace and retribution, against this "War is Peace" mentality.

Why would I accept Orwell's philosophy over my own?
He is not my shepherd.



& good is subjective anyways.

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: tastyrawmeat

Once again, some one espousing a non violent solution. And once again, good intentions, but it can never be done. Humans are humans after all and and as such, we are bound by emotions.

There is a solution out there, what it is, I have no idea and honestly doubt it really exists, but this isn't it.

I can be done. You may not be able to do it yet, but it is possible.

Start with the little things. Example, office/boss bullying. I've had a few horrendous bosses throughout my career, self-centered, abusive brutes. Defending myself, verbally, never worked - it just escalated the abuse. Once I learned not to fight back the abuse subsides. It may take a while to run it's course but it always winds down.

What is the phrase - do not give battle.

That's how it start with little things.

Non-violence and passive resistance are very powerful and will overthrow the war mongers in time.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I'm not complacent like that. I've managed to take on and win against every bully I have ever met in life. Ya just got to be smarter than them and find out what pushes their buttons. Easy targets in my opinion.

a reply to: tastyrawmeat
S & F
I agree. The reaction sometimes has the best ability to create or stop a terrible circle.

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: FyreByrd

I'm not complacent like that. I've managed to take on and win against every bully I have ever met in life. Ya just got to be smarter than them and find out what pushes their buttons. Easy targets in my opinion.

... and you perpetuate the cycle of violence ... Someday you won't 'win'.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: FyreByrd

I'm not complacent like that. I've managed to take on and win against every bully I have ever met in life. Ya just got to be smarter than them and find out what pushes their buttons. Easy targets in my opinion.

... and you perpetuate the cycle of violence ... Someday you won't 'win'.

The day I don't "win", is the day I die. I've already won in my opinion. I retired young enough to enjoy myself and continue to injure myself in the pursuit of "Fun."

And let me tell ya...it does hurt!

originally posted by: swanne

originally posted by: TDawgRex
This comes to mind.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

No hate there...just justice.

These men who stand would not need to do violence if the world was not so full of attackers in the first place.

Yes, but so long as there is even one ... there have to be people willing to stand up for the defenseless.

Be honest with yourself and ask yourself if you think for one second if everyone just suddenly laid down their arms, that it would stay that way. I honestly don't. Someone would take advantage of the situation. Someone would ruin it. Someone would play Cain.

a reply to: tastyrawmeat

This topic piqued my interest enough to get me to finally join ATS. So

I believe people wind up perpetuating the things they used to hate, mostly b/c anything can be rationalized when emotions get involved. And when people feel wronged & don't get justice, many times people say "screw it" and adopt the same actions. But people usually don't realize that while they're "in the right" in their eyes, they've become the bad guy in someone else's eyes. And there's a fine line between "righting a wrong" and "punishing until you feel satisfied". "Punishing until you feel satisfied" is a form of sadism (getting pleasure from the pain of others).

For example, I was debating religion, crime, & punishment with some of my co-workers. We all agreed that rape & torture were inexcusable crimes. But once we started debating crimes against children, they changed drastically. They were saying basically that anyone who willingly hurts kids deserved to be tortured & sent to prison to get raped. I was floored b/c that means they actually were okay w/rape & torture, just under certain circumstances. I said "Well, what if the rapist thought the same way you do? What if they caught their victim molesting an even younger child, and decided like you did, that normal punishment wasn't enough? Is it okay then? And what if it turns out the 'rapist' is innocent & you got the wrong guy? Does that mean you deserve to be tortured & raped now, for forcing that against an innocent person?".

I believe that if you really hate a concept or action, you're against it no matter what. It can't be conditional b/c depending on the conditions, you may become the same thing you claimed you hated. Every oppressive regime feels they're justified in their actions.