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Born Again - what is it?
page: 5share:
originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: bb23108
Actually, the OP claims to know what it means…in his post below…
He claims he knows, and that no one else on ATS has shown/proven they do know…
Just thought I would clear that up…
- JC
LOL! My bad, I misread his recent post. My apologies to all. Thanks for clearing this up!
edit on 3/18/2015 by bb23108 because:
originally posted by: Develo
originally posted by: iNobody
You are correct. I apologize, if I sound arrogant. That was not my intention. Please forgive me.
I was hoping to perhaps find someone who knew on here.
I am no one.
Me? Who? No one. I am not to be considered.
Just answer the question, dude! We do not really care if you are someone or nobody. We just want to have a two way exchange with you like normal people do.
What does "being born again" mean to you?
If you want to see if someone here share your view, you have to post it!
I didn't ask the question to prove a point. Or to explain things. Was just looking. That is all.
What I say is irrelevant.
Trust me.
It's like a blind man trying to understand color.
a reply to: iNobody
Believe it or not, the ATS community has a lot of mystical experience and knowledge. There is no mystical experience you could describe that we can't understand. There is a lot of scholarship and experience here. I'm an expert in comparative mysticism. I guarantee that whatever you've experienced is not exclusive to Christianity, and has been part of human experience for many, many ages. You aren't unique.
If you want us to trust you, then you need to quit being so evasive and open up to us.
👣
Believe it or not, the ATS community has a lot of mystical experience and knowledge. There is no mystical experience you could describe that we can't understand. There is a lot of scholarship and experience here. I'm an expert in comparative mysticism. I guarantee that whatever you've experienced is not exclusive to Christianity, and has been part of human experience for many, many ages. You aren't unique.
If you want us to trust you, then you need to quit being so evasive and open up to us.
👣
edit on 868WednesdayuAmerica/ChicagoMaruWednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)
a reply to: iNobody
So you find someone, who just so happens to share your exact unique view on being “born again”…then what…? end of thread…lol ?
Your statement above is totally ridiculous…why would anyone do that, with a topic as important as becoming “born again” in the Bible…
Your words belie your true colours here…You keep stating you’re a nobody and nothing etc… while at the same time sneakily promoting your own self importance, by claiming that only you know the truth, as to what being “born again” really means… All the while, being unwilling to expand on your truth/beliefs and share them openly with others…
A real “born again” person would never do those things, especially considering the topic…And from what little you have wrote in this thread so far, I’ve yet to see anything in your posts, that demonstrates/proves, that you know or have any experience or understanding, of what being “born again” truly means…IMO
And also, I asked you a fairly straightforward question; i.e. “Are you born again…?”; you don’t even have to share personal details about your experience/beliefs, if you don’t wish too…but it’s pretty much a simple yes or no answer… why would anyone, who claims to know what being “born again” really means, dodge such a simple question…?
- JC
ETA – I can’t take back my star, but I have taken back my FLAG!
Originally posted by iNobody
I was hoping to perhaps find someone who knew on here.
So you find someone, who just so happens to share your exact unique view on being “born again”…then what…? end of thread…lol ?
Your statement above is totally ridiculous…why would anyone do that, with a topic as important as becoming “born again” in the Bible…
Your words belie your true colours here…You keep stating you’re a nobody and nothing etc… while at the same time sneakily promoting your own self importance, by claiming that only you know the truth, as to what being “born again” really means… All the while, being unwilling to expand on your truth/beliefs and share them openly with others…
A real “born again” person would never do those things, especially considering the topic…And from what little you have wrote in this thread so far, I’ve yet to see anything in your posts, that demonstrates/proves, that you know or have any experience or understanding, of what being “born again” truly means…IMO
And also, I asked you a fairly straightforward question; i.e. “Are you born again…?”; you don’t even have to share personal details about your experience/beliefs, if you don’t wish too…but it’s pretty much a simple yes or no answer… why would anyone, who claims to know what being “born again” really means, dodge such a simple question…?
- JC
ETA – I can’t take back my star, but I have taken back my FLAG!
edit on 18-3-2015 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Joecroft
Thank you for your kind replay Joecroft.
If I have offended you in anyway I apologize. One of the greatest things a person can have is humility. I understand that, nor do I claim to have it. Unfortunately, it is something I'm working on. If you have perceived in anyway that I feel as if I am more important than you then you are mistaken, I don't feel that way, and I apologize if you get the perception.
But since you asked out of sincerity, and have shown your kindness I don't mind talking more about it with you.
The process of being born again is explained in this scripture quite nicely:
(Romans 8:30) . . .Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.
There are steps a human must take. The first one is glorification. That is taking in knowledge of the one true God Jehovah, that is done by reading his holy word in the Scriptures of truth, known as the Bible. Holy Spirit guides the correct-hearted person to understand truth.
After taking in knowledge a person can develop faith in God, they may come to a point where they repent of their sins and convert, at that point they dedicate their lives to Jehovah in prayer and show that dedication by water-baptism. At that point the person is declared righteous and washed of their sins and has a clean standing before God. Not due to themselves, mind you, but based on their faith in Jesus' shed blood.
Beyond that a human cannot do anything else, Jehovah is the one who decides whom he will chose and adopt as as children:
(Romans 9:16) . . .So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.
Being born again is the process of being adopted as a spirit son of God:
(Romans 8:14-16) 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Being anointed by holy spirit a person is reborn. That is God implants in them a spiritual creature that is born and grows within the person. That spiritual person will wage war against the carnal/physical being until the person's death. If he dies faithful he is given the crown of life, an immortal spirit body where he will reign in heaven alongside Jesus as kings and priests over the earth:
(1 Corinthians 15:35) . . .Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?”
When a person dies they do not just get to go to heaven, even if they serve Jehovah. No one before Jesus came to earth was risen to heaven:
(John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
Jesus was the first to be born again. This happened at his water-baptism. After being dipped in the water, showing his dedication to his Father, Jehovah's will, holy spirit descended upon him in the form of a dove. At that moment Jesus was selected to return to heaven if he died faithful. And he did. He was the first person to be raised to spirit life, with an incorruptible and immortal spirit body, in the divine image of his Father himself, and he was raised above everyone in heaven and on earth and given a name above all other's (with exception of his Father of course).
He became the first of many brothers he is to have, that are to be patterned after him.
(1 Corinthians 15:20) . . .But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.
During the coming reveltion of Jesus in kingdom power he will descend with an archangel's voice. And first raise those have are asleep in death who have received the crown of life, and then he will take the rest that are still alive, and they will become immortal spirit beings in heaven, where will rule with Jesus:
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.
(1 Corinthians 15:52-54) . . .in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality. . .
(Revelation 5:10) . . .and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
At the death of they physical body, the spiritual body will be raised:
(1 Corinthians 15:50) 50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
(1 Corinthians 15:48, 49) . . .Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.
Thank you for your kind replay Joecroft.
If I have offended you in anyway I apologize. One of the greatest things a person can have is humility. I understand that, nor do I claim to have it. Unfortunately, it is something I'm working on. If you have perceived in anyway that I feel as if I am more important than you then you are mistaken, I don't feel that way, and I apologize if you get the perception.
But since you asked out of sincerity, and have shown your kindness I don't mind talking more about it with you.
The process of being born again is explained in this scripture quite nicely:
(Romans 8:30) . . .Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.
There are steps a human must take. The first one is glorification. That is taking in knowledge of the one true God Jehovah, that is done by reading his holy word in the Scriptures of truth, known as the Bible. Holy Spirit guides the correct-hearted person to understand truth.
After taking in knowledge a person can develop faith in God, they may come to a point where they repent of their sins and convert, at that point they dedicate their lives to Jehovah in prayer and show that dedication by water-baptism. At that point the person is declared righteous and washed of their sins and has a clean standing before God. Not due to themselves, mind you, but based on their faith in Jesus' shed blood.
Beyond that a human cannot do anything else, Jehovah is the one who decides whom he will chose and adopt as as children:
(Romans 9:16) . . .So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.
Being born again is the process of being adopted as a spirit son of God:
(Romans 8:14-16) 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Being anointed by holy spirit a person is reborn. That is God implants in them a spiritual creature that is born and grows within the person. That spiritual person will wage war against the carnal/physical being until the person's death. If he dies faithful he is given the crown of life, an immortal spirit body where he will reign in heaven alongside Jesus as kings and priests over the earth:
(1 Corinthians 15:35) . . .Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?”
When a person dies they do not just get to go to heaven, even if they serve Jehovah. No one before Jesus came to earth was risen to heaven:
(John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
Jesus was the first to be born again. This happened at his water-baptism. After being dipped in the water, showing his dedication to his Father, Jehovah's will, holy spirit descended upon him in the form of a dove. At that moment Jesus was selected to return to heaven if he died faithful. And he did. He was the first person to be raised to spirit life, with an incorruptible and immortal spirit body, in the divine image of his Father himself, and he was raised above everyone in heaven and on earth and given a name above all other's (with exception of his Father of course).
He became the first of many brothers he is to have, that are to be patterned after him.
(1 Corinthians 15:20) . . .But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.
During the coming reveltion of Jesus in kingdom power he will descend with an archangel's voice. And first raise those have are asleep in death who have received the crown of life, and then he will take the rest that are still alive, and they will become immortal spirit beings in heaven, where will rule with Jesus:
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.
(1 Corinthians 15:52-54) . . .in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality. . .
(Revelation 5:10) . . .and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
At the death of they physical body, the spiritual body will be raised:
(1 Corinthians 15:50) 50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
(1 Corinthians 15:48, 49) . . .Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.
Now when Nicodemous wanted to understand these heavenly things, Jesus explained them to him, but told him, if he didn't even believe the earthly
things, how could he understand the heavenly ones?
(John 3:11, 12) . . .Most truly I say to you, what we know we speak, and what we have seen we bear witness to, but you do not receive the witness we give. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
He told Nicodemus that to enter into the kingdom of God which is in the heavenly realm, that person must be born again:
(John 3:3) . . .: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus had no idea what Jesus meant.
I explained it to you in my previous post JoeCroft. You see there are movements that teach that you HAVE to be born again to serve God. But that is not what Jesus said.
He said that in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven, you have to be born again. You see flesh and dust cannot enter into the heavenly realm. You cannot go to heaven without the adoption as a son of God:
(John 3:5, 6) . . .: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.
You see a person who receives the anointing of heavenly life HAS to have two baptisms, the one of water, and then the one of spirit. And just as all humankind descend from one man Adam, and those who have the token of spirit adoption bear the image of the one made of flesh, they will also receive the spirit body after their death.
For no human alive can enter heaven. That is why Paul stated that all spirit-adopted children of God, who have been truly born again, are baptized into death:
(Colossians 2:12) 12 For you were buried with him in his baptism. . .
(1 Corinthians 15:29) . . .Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of being dead ones? . . .
(John 3:11, 12) . . .Most truly I say to you, what we know we speak, and what we have seen we bear witness to, but you do not receive the witness we give. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
He told Nicodemus that to enter into the kingdom of God which is in the heavenly realm, that person must be born again:
(John 3:3) . . .: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus had no idea what Jesus meant.
I explained it to you in my previous post JoeCroft. You see there are movements that teach that you HAVE to be born again to serve God. But that is not what Jesus said.
He said that in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven, you have to be born again. You see flesh and dust cannot enter into the heavenly realm. You cannot go to heaven without the adoption as a son of God:
(John 3:5, 6) . . .: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.
You see a person who receives the anointing of heavenly life HAS to have two baptisms, the one of water, and then the one of spirit. And just as all humankind descend from one man Adam, and those who have the token of spirit adoption bear the image of the one made of flesh, they will also receive the spirit body after their death.
For no human alive can enter heaven. That is why Paul stated that all spirit-adopted children of God, who have been truly born again, are baptized into death:
(Colossians 2:12) 12 For you were buried with him in his baptism. . .
(1 Corinthians 15:29) . . .Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of being dead ones? . . .
edit on 18-3-2015 by iNobody because: (no reason given)
a reply to: iNobody
Well, you haven’t offended me personally; if anything you have let yourself down, by asking people for their opinions, and then making a sweeping statement that no one was right…(not even acknowledging the things that people might have got correct etc...) and then preparing to walk away without any further clarity…at least that’s how looked…prior to your last posts…
The words above come from men's misunderstandings…IMO I don’t believe in the whole chosen and foreordained ideology…Jesus says, that those who seek the truth will find it, and that it will set them free etc… This is because God is looking for those who are genuinely seeking him out…
You said in another post, that it had nothing to do with the individual, but IMO it has EVERYTHING to do with the individual, because every man is divinely connected to the Spirit of God within him, whether he’s aware of it or not…
Again, same response as I said above, but I will add this; God sees when a person has had an inner change of heart, through either love, understanding, faith or Wisdom/knowledge…or all 5 put together…God sees it and then honors it, by pouring out the Holy Spirit on to them.
In other words, God isn’t just pouring out the Spirit, just for no reason, he’s doing it because the individual, not only recognizes Gods truth, but also because his own Spirit agrees with it…
This is true though, becoming “born again” is all about coming to a realization that you are a son of God, in the spiritual sense of the word.
Jesus wasn’t just referring to himself when he said that phrase the “Son of Man”, it’s a phrase that comes from the Kabbalah…it refers to anyone who has united with the divine, which is to become a Christ i.e. an anointed one…
The next verse down from it, is a big indication of this IMO…
The snake being lifted up, refers to the spiritual energy moving up through the tree of life, towards Kether, commonly named the Father…it’s a spiritual description of uniting with the Divine.
Most of the Bible is a rehashing of original Gnosticism, by an audience who didn’t understand the mysteries, and made incorrect literal theologies out of them…IMO
This isn’t true either; The Holy Spirit is more commonly translated as The Spirit of God, and that’s going with the most accurate translation of the bible i.e. The King James version…
The Spirit of God was poured out, even in the Old Testament times…here’s just one example of many below…
Jesus teachings were the catalyst for a widespread resurgence of the pouring out of the Spirit, but it never started with Jesus; the Spirit was always available, even in Old Testament times…
This is why Jesus said this to the Pharisees below…
The Pharisees were already aware of spiritual things IMO; because if not, then how can mere men, keep people out the Kingdom, surely it can’t be about denying people access to the OT, which was more to do with just following rules/Laws etc…
I believe the Pharisees had knowledge of the Spirit and knew that the Kingdom of Heaven was within, but they kept these things secret from others, which was what Jesus was trying to point out…IMO
Continued…
Originally posted by iNobody
Thank you for your kind replay Joecroft.
If I have offended you in anyway I apologize. One of the greatest things a person can have is humility. I understand that, nor do I claim to have it. Unfortunately, it is something I'm working on. If you have perceived in anyway that I feel as if I am more important than you then you are mistaken, I don't feel that way, and I apologize if you get the perception.
Well, you haven’t offended me personally; if anything you have let yourself down, by asking people for their opinions, and then making a sweeping statement that no one was right…(not even acknowledging the things that people might have got correct etc...) and then preparing to walk away without any further clarity…at least that’s how looked…prior to your last posts…
Originally posted by iNobody
The process of being born again is explained in this scripture quite nicely:
(Romans 8:30) . . .Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.
The words above come from men's misunderstandings…IMO I don’t believe in the whole chosen and foreordained ideology…Jesus says, that those who seek the truth will find it, and that it will set them free etc… This is because God is looking for those who are genuinely seeking him out…
You said in another post, that it had nothing to do with the individual, but IMO it has EVERYTHING to do with the individual, because every man is divinely connected to the Spirit of God within him, whether he’s aware of it or not…
Originally posted by iNobody
(Romans 9:16) . . .So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy.
Again, same response as I said above, but I will add this; God sees when a person has had an inner change of heart, through either love, understanding, faith or Wisdom/knowledge…or all 5 put together…God sees it and then honors it, by pouring out the Holy Spirit on to them.
In other words, God isn’t just pouring out the Spirit, just for no reason, he’s doing it because the individual, not only recognizes Gods truth, but also because his own Spirit agrees with it…
Originally posted by iNobody
Being born again is the process of being adopted as a spirit son of God:
(Romans 8:14-16) 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.
This is true though, becoming “born again” is all about coming to a realization that you are a son of God, in the spiritual sense of the word.
Originally posted by iNobody
When a person dies they do not just get to go to heaven, even if they serve Jehovah. No one before Jesus came to earth was risen to heaven:
(John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
Jesus wasn’t just referring to himself when he said that phrase the “Son of Man”, it’s a phrase that comes from the Kabbalah…it refers to anyone who has united with the divine, which is to become a Christ i.e. an anointed one…
The next verse down from it, is a big indication of this IMO…
(John 3:14-15)
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
The snake being lifted up, refers to the spiritual energy moving up through the tree of life, towards Kether, commonly named the Father…it’s a spiritual description of uniting with the Divine.
Most of the Bible is a rehashing of original Gnosticism, by an audience who didn’t understand the mysteries, and made incorrect literal theologies out of them…IMO
Originally posted by iNobody
Jesus was the first to be born again.
This isn’t true either; The Holy Spirit is more commonly translated as The Spirit of God, and that’s going with the most accurate translation of the bible i.e. The King James version…
The Spirit of God was poured out, even in the Old Testament times…here’s just one example of many below…
Exodus 31:2-3
31 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—
Jesus teachings were the catalyst for a widespread resurgence of the pouring out of the Spirit, but it never started with Jesus; the Spirit was always available, even in Old Testament times…
This is why Jesus said this to the Pharisees below…
Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
The Pharisees were already aware of spiritual things IMO; because if not, then how can mere men, keep people out the Kingdom, surely it can’t be about denying people access to the OT, which was more to do with just following rules/Laws etc…
I believe the Pharisees had knowledge of the Spirit and knew that the Kingdom of Heaven was within, but they kept these things secret from others, which was what Jesus was trying to point out…IMO
Continued…
a reply to: iNobody
The word see in the above verse, more accurately translates to “know”, “perceive” and “understand”…
Take a look…
The word used above is this…
G1492
eidō
The above word is translated as “see”, but as well as being used literally (to see literally) the same exact word, is also used figuratively, to imply being aware, beholding, consider, know, perceive and understand etc….
And in many other places, this exact same word (G1492) is often translated as 'Know'…
Here is just one example of many below…
Now you could just say it meant “see” literally, but how did the translators know, which way it was meant to viewed…
But here’s the other key factor; when speaking of literally “seeing”, the word for “see” that is more often used, are these three words below…
(1) H7200
ra'ah (which is used exclusively throughout the OT)
רָאָה
This word is only used primarily to “see”, in the literal sense of the word, and mainly appears throughout the OT…
(2) G3700
optanomai
ὀπτάνομαι
The same is true of optanomai (G3700), which is only used to describe seeing something, in the literal sense of the word.
(3) G3708
horaō
ὁράω
The last word horaō (G3708) which is only used 68 times; is again mostly used in the literal “seeing” sense; although very occasionally, it is used to describe perceiving something, usually a vision inside the minds eye.
If Jesus meant you would ”see” the Kingdom in a literal sense, then surely one of those three words above, should have been used instead.
Now you’re probably thinking that the word (eidō G1492) which is often translated as 'Know'…could still be used to “see”, in the literal sense…but I don’t think so,…here’s some further clues, as to why…
First big clue…
Jesus states clearly that the Kingdom of God cannot be observed, which IMO means it cannot be “seen”, in a literal sense, but it can become “known” within you…
Second Big clue…
Surely the men in the above verse were not whisked away into heaven physically, before they passed away; (Rhetorical question) but guess what, the word “see” in this verse, is again (eidō G1492)…
Again that phrase “Son of man” and it spiritual significance, for the one who finds the Kingdom of Heaven within themselves…Again, the word for “see”, used, is (eidō G1492)
Once again the word (eidō G1492) is translated as “see”…
All those men is the above verse passed on before, either Jesus second coming, or before the Kingdom of God came with power…in the standard literal sense of course…which in my opinion, can only mean one thing…which is…
They all became “born again”, and recognized that they are all eternal spiritual beings, inside Gods Kingdom, i.e. that they are in it here and now…
Peace be with you…
- JC
Originally posted by iNobody
He told Nicodemus that to enter into the kingdom of God which is in the heavenly realm, that person must be born again:
(John 3:3) . . .: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
The word see in the above verse, more accurately translates to “know”, “perceive” and “understand”…
Take a look…
Jonh3:3
Jesus 2424 answered 611 and 2532 said 2036 unto him 846, Verily 281, verily 281, I say 3004 unto thee 4671, Except 3362 a man 5100 be born 1080 again 509, he cannot 1410 3756 see1492 the kingdom 932 of God 2316.
The word used above is this…
G1492
eidō
The above word is translated as “see”, but as well as being used literally (to see literally) the same exact word, is also used figuratively, to imply being aware, beholding, consider, know, perceive and understand etc….
And in many other places, this exact same word (G1492) is often translated as 'Know'…
Here is just one example of many below…
John 11:49
And 1161 one 1520 5100 of 1537 them 846, [named] Caiaphas 2533, being 5607 the high priest 749 that same 1565 year 1763, said 2036 unto them 846, Ye 5210 know1492 nothing at all 3756 3762
Now you could just say it meant “see” literally, but how did the translators know, which way it was meant to viewed…
But here’s the other key factor; when speaking of literally “seeing”, the word for “see” that is more often used, are these three words below…
(1) H7200
ra'ah (which is used exclusively throughout the OT)
רָאָה
This word is only used primarily to “see”, in the literal sense of the word, and mainly appears throughout the OT…
(2) G3700
optanomai
ὀπτάνομαι
The same is true of optanomai (G3700), which is only used to describe seeing something, in the literal sense of the word.
(3) G3708
horaō
ὁράω
The last word horaō (G3708) which is only used 68 times; is again mostly used in the literal “seeing” sense; although very occasionally, it is used to describe perceiving something, usually a vision inside the minds eye.
If Jesus meant you would ”see” the Kingdom in a literal sense, then surely one of those three words above, should have been used instead.
Now you’re probably thinking that the word (eidō G1492) which is often translated as 'Know'…could still be used to “see”, in the literal sense…but I don’t think so,…here’s some further clues, as to why…
First big clue…
Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Jesus states clearly that the Kingdom of God cannot be observed, which IMO means it cannot be “seen”, in a literal sense, but it can become “known” within you…
Second Big clue…
Luke 9:27
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God
Surely the men in the above verse were not whisked away into heaven physically, before they passed away; (Rhetorical question) but guess what, the word “see” in this verse, is again (eidō G1492)…
Matthew 16:28
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Again that phrase “Son of man” and it spiritual significance, for the one who finds the Kingdom of Heaven within themselves…Again, the word for “see”, used, is (eidō G1492)
Mark 9:1
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.
Once again the word (eidō G1492) is translated as “see”…
All those men is the above verse passed on before, either Jesus second coming, or before the Kingdom of God came with power…in the standard literal sense of course…which in my opinion, can only mean one thing…which is…
They all became “born again”, and recognized that they are all eternal spiritual beings, inside Gods Kingdom, i.e. that they are in it here and now…
Peace be with you…
- JC
edit on 19-3-2015 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)
Jesus was the son of man, and he was the first to be raised from the dead:
For example we are told of David (a person whose heart was complete to Jehovah and did die faithfully:
(Acts 2:34, 35) . . .For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’
Also, when Jesus went to resurrect Lazarus from the dead he referred to his death as sleep:
(John 11:11-14) . . .After he said these things, he added: “Laz′a·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Laz′a·rus has died,
And when he comforted Lazurus' sisters with the resurrection hope, they obviously new about a future time when he was going to come back to life for they replied:
(John 11:23, 24) . . .Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
There is a future resurrection when all mankind will be brought back to life, under Jesus' kingdom rule.
Now, we are not given the hope that we live after we die, not even those who were born again, until a certain future date. Notice how those chosen and born again were comforted with this scripture:
(1 Thessalonians 4:13) . . .Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope.
Yes, those chosen ones were SLEEPING. They were not alive. And in the very next part of that scripture God explains when the first resurrection will take place:
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.
Notice, that those who are asleep will remain that way until the second coming of Jesus.
Now of course Jehovah has given all of his faithful servants holy spirit. But the anointing of the holy spirit, and being filled with holy spirit are two quite separate things. The anointing is the adoption of a person while on earth to heavenly life. It is a one-time event. Not everyone, only a very few people since Jesus died until today have been called and chosen.
Notice that Christ is the "fristfruits" of those who have fallen asleep in death:
(1 Corinthians 15:20) 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. . .
Notice the order of the resurrection:
(1 Corinthians 15:23, 24) . . .But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.
Christ was the first, and afterwards, those belonging to the Christ, the adopted chosen spirit children of God, anointed with holy spirit, will be raised to spirit life to him.
Now notice that kingdom government of his will begin to rule at that time, and the chosen anointed will rule with him for 1000 years. Then after Jesus has gotten rid of all other government, including all human government, and Satan's rule, then he will hand that kingdom rule back over to his Father Jehovah.
((Daniel 2:44) . . .“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.)
(Revelation 5:10) . . .and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Notice when the chosen are brought to life and what happens:
(Revelation 20:4) . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.
Yes, they are resurrected at the revelation of Jesus in kingdom power. The beginning of that revelation to mankind, will include supernatural signs and portents in the heaven, and at that future point, which is very near, Jesus will resurrect them to spirit life:
(Matthew 24:29-31) . . .“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
The battle of Armageddon will follow and Jesus using his right to rule mankind, will use his newly formed kingdom government to destroy all wicked human society. (See Revelation 16. and 17).
Now the rest will not be brought to life until after the thousand years:
(Revelation 20:5) . . .The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) . . .
That is why Paul said that God subjected creation (humankind) to futility (death). And that by means of the chosen ones all the others will gain life:
Speaking of all the faithful servants of old, before Jesus came to her God reveals this:
(Hebrews 11:39, 40) . . .And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.
They DID NOT receive the fulfillment, you see because God has foreseen that they might not be made perfect apart from us. (the anointed ones, who have been born again).
They will rule with Jesus in his kingdom over the earth. And during that kingdom rule all mankind will be brought back to life, and given perfect health, and peace will reign over the earth. And those faithful men of old will live forever on the earth. But they will not enter into the kingdom of God, or rule as kings with Jesus over the earth.
And they are not perfected until the end of the thousand year reign. And will not be adopted back into Jehovah's family as sons until the thousand year reign has ended. That is why God tells us:
(Romans 8:19-21) . . .For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.
For example we are told of David (a person whose heart was complete to Jehovah and did die faithfully:
(Acts 2:34, 35) . . .For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’
Also, when Jesus went to resurrect Lazarus from the dead he referred to his death as sleep:
(John 11:11-14) . . .After he said these things, he added: “Laz′a·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Laz′a·rus has died,
And when he comforted Lazurus' sisters with the resurrection hope, they obviously new about a future time when he was going to come back to life for they replied:
(John 11:23, 24) . . .Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
There is a future resurrection when all mankind will be brought back to life, under Jesus' kingdom rule.
Now, we are not given the hope that we live after we die, not even those who were born again, until a certain future date. Notice how those chosen and born again were comforted with this scripture:
(1 Thessalonians 4:13) . . .Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope.
Yes, those chosen ones were SLEEPING. They were not alive. And in the very next part of that scripture God explains when the first resurrection will take place:
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.
Notice, that those who are asleep will remain that way until the second coming of Jesus.
Now of course Jehovah has given all of his faithful servants holy spirit. But the anointing of the holy spirit, and being filled with holy spirit are two quite separate things. The anointing is the adoption of a person while on earth to heavenly life. It is a one-time event. Not everyone, only a very few people since Jesus died until today have been called and chosen.
Notice that Christ is the "fristfruits" of those who have fallen asleep in death:
(1 Corinthians 15:20) 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. . .
Notice the order of the resurrection:
(1 Corinthians 15:23, 24) . . .But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.
Christ was the first, and afterwards, those belonging to the Christ, the adopted chosen spirit children of God, anointed with holy spirit, will be raised to spirit life to him.
Now notice that kingdom government of his will begin to rule at that time, and the chosen anointed will rule with him for 1000 years. Then after Jesus has gotten rid of all other government, including all human government, and Satan's rule, then he will hand that kingdom rule back over to his Father Jehovah.
((Daniel 2:44) . . .“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.)
(Revelation 5:10) . . .and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Notice when the chosen are brought to life and what happens:
(Revelation 20:4) . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.
Yes, they are resurrected at the revelation of Jesus in kingdom power. The beginning of that revelation to mankind, will include supernatural signs and portents in the heaven, and at that future point, which is very near, Jesus will resurrect them to spirit life:
(Matthew 24:29-31) . . .“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
The battle of Armageddon will follow and Jesus using his right to rule mankind, will use his newly formed kingdom government to destroy all wicked human society. (See Revelation 16. and 17).
Now the rest will not be brought to life until after the thousand years:
(Revelation 20:5) . . .The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) . . .
That is why Paul said that God subjected creation (humankind) to futility (death). And that by means of the chosen ones all the others will gain life:
Speaking of all the faithful servants of old, before Jesus came to her God reveals this:
(Hebrews 11:39, 40) . . .And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, 40 because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us.
They DID NOT receive the fulfillment, you see because God has foreseen that they might not be made perfect apart from us. (the anointed ones, who have been born again).
They will rule with Jesus in his kingdom over the earth. And during that kingdom rule all mankind will be brought back to life, and given perfect health, and peace will reign over the earth. And those faithful men of old will live forever on the earth. But they will not enter into the kingdom of God, or rule as kings with Jesus over the earth.
And they are not perfected until the end of the thousand year reign. And will not be adopted back into Jehovah's family as sons until the thousand year reign has ended. That is why God tells us:
(Romans 8:19-21) . . .For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.
a reply to: Joecroft
Cont... (from above post)
Now you see by means of the new creation, through Jesus and his spirit adopted brothers, who will rule with him in his kingdom government, the rest of humankind will be perfected and freed from enslavement to sin and death and then all mankind left on earth after the thousand year reign will become sons of God again.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-26) . . .Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.
As far as his telling some of his apostles that they would have a foretaste of his future heavenly rule, that happened while he was on earth during the transfiguration.
(You might want to read that passage in Matthew 24:30 again if you are unclear if Jesus is not the "Son of man.")
The wonderful vision Daniel was given in chapter 7 takes us to heaven where, Jesus, as the Son of man, receives kingdom power from his Father (the Ancient of Days), Jehovah God:
(Daniel 7:13, 14) 13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
Now if you read on further in that vision, when Jesus is crowned king in heaven and given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, so that everyone should serve him, if you read a little further on, you will see the prophecy talking about the holy ones (or saints, or those who have been born-again), Satan wars against them by means of his political governments, and religious systems of things on earth. And will continue to do so right up to the end, then Jehovah will intervene at that future point (very near) and judge in favor of his holy adopted children, and they will be given rulership with Jesus Christ over mankind:
(Daniel 7:21, 22) . . . “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.
(Daniel 7:27) . . .“‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’
You see they sit down on Jesus' heavenly thrown with him and rule with him at that future point. That is why Jesus speaking to his spirit adopted children reminded them:
(Revelation 2:26) . . .And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations,
Yes, those who remain faithful until the end are promised they will rule as kings, with authority over the nations:
(Revelation 3:21) . . .To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
These promises are only given to God's chosen anointed adopted sons (who have been born again). They will sit down on Jesus' throne with him in heaven.
Now there is another scripture that very plainly shows us that those chosen have yet to receive the heavenly reward:
Asking how long Jehovah was going to let the blood of his adopted children who have been murdered by Satan through his political and religious systems, unavenged, they are told:
(Revelation 6:11) . . .And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.
Yes to rest a little longer. They had to rest until the full number was filled of their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been. (Notice that the number needs to be filled, there is a certain number when it is filled the end will come. That number was foreordained by God since the prophecy of all these things in Genesis 3:15).
Now in Matthew 24 we are given the revelation that a future coming great tribulation is almost here. During that time religion will be done away with. And if God does not intervene in affairs his chosen, adopted children would be killed:
(Matthew 24:21, 22) 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
It is on account of God's chosen holy ones that he will intervene as those other prophecies indicate. And we already read a little further in Matthew 24, that is when the Son of Man, Jesus, descends from heaven with supernatural portents, with an archangel's voice, and God's trumpet, and raises his brothers to immortal spirit life in heaven.
Cont... (from above post)
Now you see by means of the new creation, through Jesus and his spirit adopted brothers, who will rule with him in his kingdom government, the rest of humankind will be perfected and freed from enslavement to sin and death and then all mankind left on earth after the thousand year reign will become sons of God again.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-26) . . .Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.
As far as his telling some of his apostles that they would have a foretaste of his future heavenly rule, that happened while he was on earth during the transfiguration.
(You might want to read that passage in Matthew 24:30 again if you are unclear if Jesus is not the "Son of man.")
The wonderful vision Daniel was given in chapter 7 takes us to heaven where, Jesus, as the Son of man, receives kingdom power from his Father (the Ancient of Days), Jehovah God:
(Daniel 7:13, 14) 13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
Now if you read on further in that vision, when Jesus is crowned king in heaven and given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, so that everyone should serve him, if you read a little further on, you will see the prophecy talking about the holy ones (or saints, or those who have been born-again), Satan wars against them by means of his political governments, and religious systems of things on earth. And will continue to do so right up to the end, then Jehovah will intervene at that future point (very near) and judge in favor of his holy adopted children, and they will be given rulership with Jesus Christ over mankind:
(Daniel 7:21, 22) . . . “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.
(Daniel 7:27) . . .“‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’
You see they sit down on Jesus' heavenly thrown with him and rule with him at that future point. That is why Jesus speaking to his spirit adopted children reminded them:
(Revelation 2:26) . . .And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations,
Yes, those who remain faithful until the end are promised they will rule as kings, with authority over the nations:
(Revelation 3:21) . . .To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
These promises are only given to God's chosen anointed adopted sons (who have been born again). They will sit down on Jesus' throne with him in heaven.
Now there is another scripture that very plainly shows us that those chosen have yet to receive the heavenly reward:
Asking how long Jehovah was going to let the blood of his adopted children who have been murdered by Satan through his political and religious systems, unavenged, they are told:
(Revelation 6:11) . . .And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.
Yes to rest a little longer. They had to rest until the full number was filled of their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been. (Notice that the number needs to be filled, there is a certain number when it is filled the end will come. That number was foreordained by God since the prophecy of all these things in Genesis 3:15).
Now in Matthew 24 we are given the revelation that a future coming great tribulation is almost here. During that time religion will be done away with. And if God does not intervene in affairs his chosen, adopted children would be killed:
(Matthew 24:21, 22) 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
It is on account of God's chosen holy ones that he will intervene as those other prophecies indicate. And we already read a little further in Matthew 24, that is when the Son of Man, Jesus, descends from heaven with supernatural portents, with an archangel's voice, and God's trumpet, and raises his brothers to immortal spirit life in heaven.
edit on 20-3-2015 by iNobody because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: iNobody
...
Once again the word (eidō G1492) is translated as “see”…
All those men is the above verse passed on before, either Jesus second coming, or before the Kingdom of God came with power…in the standard literal sense of course…which in my opinion, can only mean one thing…which is…
They all became “born again”, and recognized that they are all eternal spiritual beings, inside Gods Kingdom, i.e. that they are in it here and now…
Peace be with you…
- JC
Your whole post is excellent! Thank you.
Yes, Jesus clearly intended his true followers to be initiated during their physical lifetime into the kingdom of God, the Light above, where the flesh body is understood to be fleeting and mortal, and the Light above is the source of eternal communion with the Divine.
Such was their rebirth even while they lived on earth.
edit on 3/20/2015 by bb23108 because:
a reply to: iNobody
Like I was saying in my previous post, the phrase “son of man” applies to all those, who receive the Spirit of God, and become an anointed one…
Even Ezekiel was called the Son of Man…
But notice the context, and how he just so happens to be receiving the Spirit of God, while being called a “Son of Man”. And if you bear in mind what I stated in my previous posts, then those two aspects being together, is not a coincidence… And realize that it was written after the fact…
The literal second coming is a misunderstanding of what Jesus really meant, that error was then compounded down through the other texts, (the ones you quoted in your previous post) including some of the Pauline Epistles…the second coming is really about people becoming “born again”…IMO
The books of Revelations is NOT meant to be taken literally, they are Gnostic/Kabbalistic texts, which used coded words, to conceal inner hidden truths;
The idea of an all Conquering warring God, came from men's carnal and fleshy understandings about Gods character, and run completely opposite to the true character of Jesus…
Jesus fulfilled some of the OT Messianic prophecies, but he didn’t fulfil all of the warring Messiah ones. So because men were confused about those aspects of scripture not being fulfilled; The idea of Jesus returning to later (combined with the misunderstanding of the true Kingdom of heaven) be the all conquering “2nd Coming” Messiah, and complete those warring prophecies, was interwoven and added into the texts by men IMO…
Going with a literal interpretation of Revelations, all kinds of wrath destruction and mayhem, are supposedly going to take place, when the “Son of Man” returns, as is also mentioned in this verse below…
But again, this verse above is a corrupted misunderstanding of what Jesus was really teaching, plus it goes against Jesus real character to do those things…don’t believe me, then take look…
If Jesus isn’t wanting to rain down fire on people in the past, then he certainly isn’t going to do so, anytime in the future either IMO…and notice how this verse was almost removed from the Bible…makes you wonder why…
Jesus has no need to come back, to bring in the kingdom using force through destruction and mayhem etc…those things to do not resonate with the fruits of the spirit. Plus like I was saying before, men just didn’t understand, that it was Jesus teachings which were helping to bring in the Kingdom…they were too wrapped up in the warring Messiah prophecies, and the same problem still exists today…
I already pointed out in my previous post, that The Spirit of God was poured out onto many prophets, many times, throughout the Old Testament. And they all received similar gifts of the Spirit, that are mentioned in the books of Acts…
Jesus was not the first, he just started a resurgence of teaching about the Spirit. Jesus prayer was that we would all become one with the Father, just like he was.
The problem is, when someone starts to teach others who don’t understand completely, the texts become distorted, truth gets stretched, and the person who's teaching it, get’s designated as the ONE…but Jesus didn’t come to set up a hierarchy IMO, otherwise he would have called us subjects and not friends…
BTW - You didn’t address directly any of the key points, that I raised in my previous post…you’re not thinking for yourself, but are just throwing out Biblical verses, thinking that they contain all truth…
Most of what I highlighted, in my previous post, also shows that the Bible contains key contradictions…for example, you haven’t given any explanation for those verses in Luke 17:20-21, Luke 9:27, Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1, that actually fits with standard Christian doctrines and makes sense.
And on a side note – You should really have a look at other material outside that of the Bible; by looking at other texts, that have close connections with it etc…
Reading some Christian Gnostic texts, would be a good place to start IMO, and then after that, take a look at some Hermetic texts; followed by dipping your toes into some Kabbalistic knowledge, which incidentally, contains many coded elements, that are incorporated into the book of Genesis…
- JC
Originally posted by iNobody
Jesus was the son of man, and he was the first to be raised from the dead:
Like I was saying in my previous post, the phrase “son of man” applies to all those, who receive the Spirit of God, and become an anointed one…
Even Ezekiel was called the Son of Man…
Ezekiel 2:1-2
He said to me, “Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.” 2 As he spoke, the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet, and I heard him speaking to me.
But notice the context, and how he just so happens to be receiving the Spirit of God, while being called a “Son of Man”. And if you bear in mind what I stated in my previous posts, then those two aspects being together, is not a coincidence… And realize that it was written after the fact…
Originally posted by iNobody
(John 11:23, 24) . . .Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
…
…
…
There is a future resurrection when all mankind will be brought back to life, under Jesus' kingdom rule.
…
…
Notice, that those who are asleep will remain that way until the second coming of Jesus.
The literal second coming is a misunderstanding of what Jesus really meant, that error was then compounded down through the other texts, (the ones you quoted in your previous post) including some of the Pauline Epistles…the second coming is really about people becoming “born again”…IMO
Originally posted by iNobody
The battle of Armageddon will follow and Jesus using his right to rule mankind, will use his newly formed kingdom government to destroy all wicked human society. (See Revelation 16. and 17).
The books of Revelations is NOT meant to be taken literally, they are Gnostic/Kabbalistic texts, which used coded words, to conceal inner hidden truths;
The idea of an all Conquering warring God, came from men's carnal and fleshy understandings about Gods character, and run completely opposite to the true character of Jesus…
Jesus fulfilled some of the OT Messianic prophecies, but he didn’t fulfil all of the warring Messiah ones. So because men were confused about those aspects of scripture not being fulfilled; The idea of Jesus returning to later (combined with the misunderstanding of the true Kingdom of heaven) be the all conquering “2nd Coming” Messiah, and complete those warring prophecies, was interwoven and added into the texts by men IMO…
Going with a literal interpretation of Revelations, all kinds of wrath destruction and mayhem, are supposedly going to take place, when the “Son of Man” returns, as is also mentioned in this verse below…
Luke 17: 28-32
. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife.
But again, this verse above is a corrupted misunderstanding of what Jesus was really teaching, plus it goes against Jesus real character to do those things…don’t believe me, then take look…
Luke 9:51-56
51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.
If Jesus isn’t wanting to rain down fire on people in the past, then he certainly isn’t going to do so, anytime in the future either IMO…and notice how this verse was almost removed from the Bible…makes you wonder why…
Jesus has no need to come back, to bring in the kingdom using force through destruction and mayhem etc…those things to do not resonate with the fruits of the spirit. Plus like I was saying before, men just didn’t understand, that it was Jesus teachings which were helping to bring in the Kingdom…they were too wrapped up in the warring Messiah prophecies, and the same problem still exists today…
Originally posted by iNobody
Christ was the first, and afterwards, those belonging to the Christ, the adopted chosen spirit children of God, anointed with holy spirit, will be raised to spirit life to him.
I already pointed out in my previous post, that The Spirit of God was poured out onto many prophets, many times, throughout the Old Testament. And they all received similar gifts of the Spirit, that are mentioned in the books of Acts…
Jesus was not the first, he just started a resurgence of teaching about the Spirit. Jesus prayer was that we would all become one with the Father, just like he was.
The problem is, when someone starts to teach others who don’t understand completely, the texts become distorted, truth gets stretched, and the person who's teaching it, get’s designated as the ONE…but Jesus didn’t come to set up a hierarchy IMO, otherwise he would have called us subjects and not friends…
BTW - You didn’t address directly any of the key points, that I raised in my previous post…you’re not thinking for yourself, but are just throwing out Biblical verses, thinking that they contain all truth…
Most of what I highlighted, in my previous post, also shows that the Bible contains key contradictions…for example, you haven’t given any explanation for those verses in Luke 17:20-21, Luke 9:27, Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1, that actually fits with standard Christian doctrines and makes sense.
And on a side note – You should really have a look at other material outside that of the Bible; by looking at other texts, that have close connections with it etc…
Reading some Christian Gnostic texts, would be a good place to start IMO, and then after that, take a look at some Hermetic texts; followed by dipping your toes into some Kabbalistic knowledge, which incidentally, contains many coded elements, that are incorporated into the book of Genesis…
- JC
edit on 20-3-2015 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Joecroft
Your efforts to get through to him are heroic. But he had a mystical experience, probably ecstatic rapture or an NDE, and is in the noetic stage of the aftermath. You won't get through to him.
You'll probably be able to talk some sense into him when he enters the dark night of the soul stage. If he doesn't crawl into a hole.
👣
Your efforts to get through to him are heroic. But he had a mystical experience, probably ecstatic rapture or an NDE, and is in the noetic stage of the aftermath. You won't get through to him.
-William James
Although so similar to states of feeling, mystical states seem to those who experience them to be also states of knowledge. They are states of insight into depths of truth unplumbed by the discurssive intellect. They are illuminations, revelations, full of significance and importance, all inarticulate though they remain; and as a rule they carry with them a curious sense of authority for after time.
You'll probably be able to talk some sense into him when he enters the dark night of the soul stage. If he doesn't crawl into a hole.
👣
edit on 932FridayuAmerica/ChicagoMaruFridayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)
a reply to: BlueMule
Thanks, I get that a LOT lol
Hmmm How do you know this, has he posted a thread topic on the subject of his mystical experiences…?
Maybe you’re right, and I wont get through, but I had to try…
I kind of get what you’re saying, but shouldn’t real mystical experiences that come from God, lead a person to the real truth or truths…?
Well, I don’t think I’ve been to this “dark night of the soul stage” myself; Although I’m not exactly (not sure what the best word to use here is so…) I’m not exactly… you know lol….
And if I can get this far, minus the Dark Night, then surely he can too…
Btw - What is the Dark night of the soul stage…? And should I be worried lol
- JC
Originally posted by BlueMule
Your efforts to get through to him are heroic.
Thanks, I get that a LOT lol
Originally posted by BlueMule
But he had a mystical experience, probably ecstatic rapture or an NDE, and is in the noetic stage of the aftermath. You won't get through to him.
Hmmm How do you know this, has he posted a thread topic on the subject of his mystical experiences…?
Maybe you’re right, and I wont get through, but I had to try…
Originally posted by BlueMule
Although so similar to states of feeling, mystical states seem to those who experience them to be also states of knowledge. They are states of insight into depths of truth unplumbed by the discurssive intellect. They are illuminations, revelations, full of significance and importance, all inarticulate though they remain; and as a rule they carry with them a curious sense of authority for after time.
-William James
I kind of get what you’re saying, but shouldn’t real mystical experiences that come from God, lead a person to the real truth or truths…?
Originally posted by BlueMule
You'll probably be able to talk some sense into him when he enters the dark night of the soul stage. If he doesn't crawl into a hole.
Well, I don’t think I’ve been to this “dark night of the soul stage” myself; Although I’m not exactly (not sure what the best word to use here is so…) I’m not exactly… you know lol….
And if I can get this far, minus the Dark Night, then surely he can too…
Btw - What is the Dark night of the soul stage…? And should I be worried lol
- JC
edit on 20-3-2015 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Joecroft
But don’t you also KNOW this…? Which makes it partly about knowledge…if you think about it…
Unless you just believe by faith, in which case, you couldn’t possible by “born again”, because Jesus really (more accurately translated IMO) stated you will know/understand/perceive the Kingdom, which is a knowing, through divine experience…
- JC
Thanks Joe,
This is getting closer to the crux of the matter.The keys to the kingdom of “your heavens” is revelation(knowing) from the father.The heavens is your mind but it is not a kingdom because it is not ruled by authority(the creator God).However having the keys does not mean you will enter into the “kingdom” of your heavens”.They are what “opens the door” (metaphor).When Yahoshua asked the disciples who do the people say I am.They said a prophet…etc etc…Then he asked who the disciples said he was and Simon answered.”you are the christ the son of the living God”.
Yahoshua didn’t say …”blessed are you Simon son of Jonah for the scriptures and/or your faith and belief in me has revealed this to you”.He said the father the creator God revealed it to him.Simon was a lunkhead,he did not know the scriptures.He was a run into a rock and see if it moves guy yet without any explanation he said I just “know it”.He didn’t even say he believed it or the scriptures say it.He said it like a statement of fact and Yahoshua confirmed it and told him the source and what that source was and does.
Revelation from the father the creator God is the foundation stone of the church (ekklesia) which is the nations of ALL humankind not just Jews or even Christians.. ALL people “will” enter IN the kingdom of their heavens.It is the keys “to” the kingdom.You can’t enter into it with out it.Whatever is bound will be bound or loosed will be loosed in your heavens(mind) and in earth.This is not being born anew though.
The Catholic church twisted that all around and created a “heaven” somewhere out there…and made Peter Yahoshua’s successor as ruler of the “church” on earth!!! The biggest lunkhead of a group of lunkheads!l!Two verse later Yahoshua is calling Simon-Peter satan because of his “thoughts” that are at enmity tho the creator God.Peter is proof one second you can hold the key the next drop them down a sewer.None are “better” than others.None will enter the kingdom their heavens by their “efforts or faith or anything they do they will enter in in spite of them!
Entering into the kingdom of your heavens is the key to “hearing”…. to knowing/communing with the creator God.Yahoshua never said he believed (he only knew) in the father he only told others they would believe because he knew how it worked….man's nature is to believe in faith their Belief System religion through their religious carnal mind(heavens).It is inevitable and unavoidable.
However belief through faith is not the keys to the kingdom of your heavens.The keys to the kingdom is revelation from the father ..however it is only the keys there is no guarantee of “entering” and staying.Its more like a peek into the door then the door closing again…binding and loosing.Paul called it the earnest of the spirit.A snippet of entering in the kingdom of your heavens and knowing.
Of course that all leads to the false construct of being “born anew” being a “spiritual” awakening ascension mysticism..etc,etc.Yahoshua continually stated one basic truth to the disciples over and over.Everything that you believe is truth ..Is NOT truth.Not because they were Jews but because they were religious(like all of mankind) and what they believed was not true at all just as all religions and religious or spiritual beliefs or mystical beliefs are false because they come from within a man..their nature.Yahoshua clearly stated it isn’t what goes in a man that defiles him it is what comes out of his heart (nature and character..their name) that defiles him.
That religious nature must “die” (precluded with physical death) and then the person will be born into a new nature.Anyone who is alive now who thinks they have died physically and been born anew with a new nature ( which is not through a mothers flesh womb) is believing something that is not truth.Water baptism is a symbol of the first step of being born anew however it is NOT being born anew.Fire baptism(as in the lake of fire) is also part of the process.Of course neither is literal they only "symbolize" a process that cannot be known.
All of mankind “will be” born anew however none have been born anew .The dead are dead in Hades.None have been resurrected from Hades and born anew.The earnest of the anointing(christ) of the holy spirit(Life) is a key.It is the comforter however it is not the entering in the kingdom of your heavens.That is communion (knowing) the creator God and being and living in the state of the Kingdom of the creator God.When that communion is consummated then you have entered into the Kingdom of the creator God.
However all of mankind are in a stage of conception.Either the seed has not been sown yet or they are being conceived (the spermatozoon mating with the egg) in the process of conception…zygote,embryo,fetus….however none have been delivered(saved) and born anew yet.That is the essence of Yahoshua’s parable of the seed and soils.He told the disciple how will you understand any parable if you don’t understand this one.
The hope of mankind is that this life(the valley of the shadow of death), is not the only life because it only ends in death.The Great hope is for new LIFE life(not death life again and again)fortunately the creator God is causing this conception of new life by the same basic process all life is formed...and without mans approval.The good news is there is more LIFE a “new” life and nothing man can do (or believe) will cause it.Sit back(keep your hands in the car) try to enjoy the trip(through the suffering) and try not to make it worse for others on their trip by disseminating lies about things that aren’t true… like your religion.
originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: BlueMule
Originally posted by BlueMule
Your efforts to get through to him are heroic.
Thanks, I get that a LOT lol
Well, you deserve it. 💪
Hmmm How do you know this, has he posted a thread topic on the subject of his mystical experiences…?
Just things he's said here and there. He is secretive, but not secretive enough.
I kind of get what you’re saying, but shouldn’t real mystical experiences that come from God, lead a person to the real truth or truths…?
Mystical experiences happen within the context of any and all belief systems, even atheism. Heck, even Jediism. They have been a part of human experience since the days of primordial shamanism.
Well, I don’t think I’ve been to this “dark night of the soul stage” myself; Although I’m not exactly (not sure what the best word to use here is so…) I’m not exactly… you know lol….
And if I can get this far, minus the Dark Night, then surely he can too…
Btw - What is the Dark night of the soul stage…? And should I be worried lol
Worried? No. It's a necessary stage of mystical development. After a profound enough experience, a kind of fatigue eventually sets in. Mystical states of consciousness are very draining. If you recall, Jesus had to retreat to the desert on occasion.
👣
edit on 011FridayuAmerica/ChicagoMaruFridayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Joecroft
I have read about Gnosticism and and Christian mysticism.
The Gnostics (from the Greek word gno′sis, meaning “knowledge”) claimed superior knowledge through secret revelation and boasted that they were the “correctors of the apostles.” Gnosticism intertwined philosophy, speculation, and pagan mysticism with apostate Christianity.
The scripture that comes to mind when thinking of their apostate teachings (mixed with pagan, and even occult teachings of demons is this scripture:
(Colossians 2:8) . . .Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;
Their teachings are incompatible with God's word.
And as God's word itself reveals to us:
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
We don't need outside works that have been corrupted, are works of man, or outright demon-inspired to understand God's word.
What we need is holy spirit, and and a humble spirit, and as we read scriptures Jehovah reveals truth to us. Nothing I have shown you is my own. But only scripture.
As far as Revelation not being literal, that is very obvious the first two verses of the book state that it was given in signs, or symbols, in order to show what must shortly take place. It is the fulfillment of the divine will expressed in the Bible and the first prophecy shown to us at Genesis 3:15.
I respect your beliefs deeply.
I will continue to look for those who love God's word, and will listen to what it says. I can never disrespect you for your not accepting the scriptures revealed to you.
----
As to answer your assertion that because Jesus is loving and humble, just like his Father, in fact scripture reveals his love for man suprasses knowledge, that he will not get rid of wickedness, that is a mistake.
Even when in the temple, when Jesus saw the corruption, his zeal for his Father's house gave him righteous indignation, and he drove them out of the temple.
He will do so again in the future. He will not tolerate the extreme perversion human society has become.
Scripture tells us the God has been very patient with humankind because he doesn't want anyone to die, but the end WILL come:
(2 Peter 3:9, 10) . . .Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed. . .
It will not be chaotic.
In fact if you notice who instigates the final war it is not Jesus, it is not Jehovah. It is Satan and his demons who rally the nations to attack God's people:
(Revelation 16:13, 14) . . .And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
When Jesus sallies forth in defense of his people, it will not be because he is not loving, or not patient. But his hand will have been forced, and, in order his people are not destroyed by Satan and his political systems of things, he must react, and it will be righteous war that will be waged, not anything other:
(Revelation 19:11-16) . . .I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
(Isaiah 11:3, 4) . . .And he will find delight in the fear of Jehovah. He will not judge by what appears to his eyes, Nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear. 4 He will judge the lowly with fairness, And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth And put the wicked to death with the breath of his lips.
I have read about Gnosticism and and Christian mysticism.
The Gnostics (from the Greek word gno′sis, meaning “knowledge”) claimed superior knowledge through secret revelation and boasted that they were the “correctors of the apostles.” Gnosticism intertwined philosophy, speculation, and pagan mysticism with apostate Christianity.
The scripture that comes to mind when thinking of their apostate teachings (mixed with pagan, and even occult teachings of demons is this scripture:
(Colossians 2:8) . . .Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;
Their teachings are incompatible with God's word.
And as God's word itself reveals to us:
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
We don't need outside works that have been corrupted, are works of man, or outright demon-inspired to understand God's word.
What we need is holy spirit, and and a humble spirit, and as we read scriptures Jehovah reveals truth to us. Nothing I have shown you is my own. But only scripture.
As far as Revelation not being literal, that is very obvious the first two verses of the book state that it was given in signs, or symbols, in order to show what must shortly take place. It is the fulfillment of the divine will expressed in the Bible and the first prophecy shown to us at Genesis 3:15.
I respect your beliefs deeply.
I will continue to look for those who love God's word, and will listen to what it says. I can never disrespect you for your not accepting the scriptures revealed to you.
----
As to answer your assertion that because Jesus is loving and humble, just like his Father, in fact scripture reveals his love for man suprasses knowledge, that he will not get rid of wickedness, that is a mistake.
Even when in the temple, when Jesus saw the corruption, his zeal for his Father's house gave him righteous indignation, and he drove them out of the temple.
He will do so again in the future. He will not tolerate the extreme perversion human society has become.
Scripture tells us the God has been very patient with humankind because he doesn't want anyone to die, but the end WILL come:
(2 Peter 3:9, 10) . . .Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed. . .
It will not be chaotic.
In fact if you notice who instigates the final war it is not Jesus, it is not Jehovah. It is Satan and his demons who rally the nations to attack God's people:
(Revelation 16:13, 14) . . .And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
When Jesus sallies forth in defense of his people, it will not be because he is not loving, or not patient. But his hand will have been forced, and, in order his people are not destroyed by Satan and his political systems of things, he must react, and it will be righteous war that will be waged, not anything other:
(Revelation 19:11-16) . . .I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
(Isaiah 11:3, 4) . . .And he will find delight in the fear of Jehovah. He will not judge by what appears to his eyes, Nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear. 4 He will judge the lowly with fairness, And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth And put the wicked to death with the breath of his lips.
edit on 20-3-2015 by iNobody because: (no reason given)
a reply to: iNobody
That is mere tribal mentality talking. Not objective study of the comparative fields. You are culture-bound and therefore myopic. The phrase 'God is One' doesn't mean your tribal concept of God is the only true one among false idols. It means God goes by different names in different religions, different forms, different masks. If you can't see God in them all, you can't see God at all.
'Moses heard a shepherd on the road praying,
“God,
where are you? I want to help You, to fix Your shoes
and comb your hair. I want to wash Your clothes
and pick the lice off. I want to bring You milk,
to kiss Your little hands and feet when it’s time
for You to go to bed. I want to sweep Your room
and keep it neat. God, my sheep and my goats
are Yours. All I can say, remembering You,
is ayyyyyyy and ahhhhhhhh.”
Moses could stand it no longer.
“Who are you talking to?”
“The one who made us,
and made the earth and made the sky.”
“Don’t talk about shoes and socks with God!
And what’s this with Your little hands and feet?
Such blasphemous familiarity sounds like
you’re chatting with your uncles.
Only something that grows needs milk.
Only someone with feet needs shoes. Not God!
Even if you meant God’s human representatives,
as when God said, ‘I was sick, and you did not visit me,’
even then this tone would be foolish and irreverent.
Use appropriate terms. Fatima is a fine name
for a woman, but if you call a man Fatima,
it’s an insult. Body-and-birth language
are right for us on this side of the river,
but not for addressing the Origin,
not for Allah.”
The shepherd repented and tore his clothes and sighed
and wandered out into the desert.
A sudden revelation
came then to Moses. God’s voice:
You have separated Me
from one of my own. Did you come as a prophet to unite,
or to sever?
I have given each being a separate and unique way
of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.
What seems wrong to you is right for him.
What is poison to one is honey to someone else.
Purity and impurity, sloth and diligence in worship,
these mean nothing to Me.
I am apart from all that.
Ways of worshipping are not to be ranked as better
or worse than one another.
Hindus do Hindu things.
The Dravidian Muslims in India do what they do.
It’s all praise, and it’s all right.
It’s not Me that’s glorified in acts of worship.
It’s the worshippers! I don’t hear the words
They say. I look inside at the humility.
That broken-open lowliness is the Reality,
not the language! Forget phraseology.
I want burning, burning.
Be friends
with your burning. Burn up your thinking
and your forms of expression!
Moses,
those who pay attention to ways of behaving
and speaking are one sort.
Lovers who burn are another.”
Don’t impose a property tax
on a burned out village. Don’t scold the Lover.
The “wrong” way he talks is better than a hundred
“right” ways of others.
Inside the Kaaba
it doesn’t matter which direction you point
your prayer rug!
The ocean diver doesn’t need snowshoes!
The Love-Religion has no code or doctrine.
Only God.
So the ruby has nothing engraved on it!
It doesn’t need markings.
God began speaking
deeper mysteries to Moses. Vision and words,
which cannot be recorded here, poured into
and through him. He left himself and came back.
He went to eternity and came back here.
Many times this happened.
It’s foolish of me
to try and say this. If I did say it,
it would uproot our human intelligences.
It would shatter all writing pens.
Moses ran after the shepherd.
He followed the bewildered footprints,
in one place moving straight like a castle
across a chessboard. In another, sideways,
like a bishop.
Now surging like a wave cresting,
now sliding down like a fish,
with always his feet
making geomancy symbols in the sand,
recording his wandering state.
Moses finally caught up with him.
“I was wrong. God has revealed to me
that there are no rules for worship.
Say whatever
and however your loving tells you to. Your sweet blasphemy
is the truest devotion.
Through you a whole world is freed.
Loosen your tongue and don’t worry what comes out.
It’s all the light of the Spirit.”
The shepherd replied,
“Moses, Moses,
I’ve gone beyond even that.
You applied the whip and my horse shied and jumped
out of itself. The Divine Nature and my human nature
came together.
Bless your scolding hand and your arm.
I can’t say what has happened.
What I’m saying now
is not my real condition. It can’t be said.”
The shepherd grew quiet.
When you look in a mirror,
you see yourself, not the state of the mirror.
The fluteplayer puts breath into a flute,
and who makes the music? Not the flute.
The Fluteplayer!
Whenever you speak praise
or thanksgiving to God, it’s always like this
dear shepherd’s simplicity.
When you eventually see
through the veils to how things really are,
you will keep saying again
and again,
“This is certainly not like
we thought it was!” -Rumi
👣
That is mere tribal mentality talking. Not objective study of the comparative fields. You are culture-bound and therefore myopic. The phrase 'God is One' doesn't mean your tribal concept of God is the only true one among false idols. It means God goes by different names in different religions, different forms, different masks. If you can't see God in them all, you can't see God at all.
'Moses heard a shepherd on the road praying,
“God,
where are you? I want to help You, to fix Your shoes
and comb your hair. I want to wash Your clothes
and pick the lice off. I want to bring You milk,
to kiss Your little hands and feet when it’s time
for You to go to bed. I want to sweep Your room
and keep it neat. God, my sheep and my goats
are Yours. All I can say, remembering You,
is ayyyyyyy and ahhhhhhhh.”
Moses could stand it no longer.
“Who are you talking to?”
“The one who made us,
and made the earth and made the sky.”
“Don’t talk about shoes and socks with God!
And what’s this with Your little hands and feet?
Such blasphemous familiarity sounds like
you’re chatting with your uncles.
Only something that grows needs milk.
Only someone with feet needs shoes. Not God!
Even if you meant God’s human representatives,
as when God said, ‘I was sick, and you did not visit me,’
even then this tone would be foolish and irreverent.
Use appropriate terms. Fatima is a fine name
for a woman, but if you call a man Fatima,
it’s an insult. Body-and-birth language
are right for us on this side of the river,
but not for addressing the Origin,
not for Allah.”
The shepherd repented and tore his clothes and sighed
and wandered out into the desert.
A sudden revelation
came then to Moses. God’s voice:
You have separated Me
from one of my own. Did you come as a prophet to unite,
or to sever?
I have given each being a separate and unique way
of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.
What seems wrong to you is right for him.
What is poison to one is honey to someone else.
Purity and impurity, sloth and diligence in worship,
these mean nothing to Me.
I am apart from all that.
Ways of worshipping are not to be ranked as better
or worse than one another.
Hindus do Hindu things.
The Dravidian Muslims in India do what they do.
It’s all praise, and it’s all right.
It’s not Me that’s glorified in acts of worship.
It’s the worshippers! I don’t hear the words
They say. I look inside at the humility.
That broken-open lowliness is the Reality,
not the language! Forget phraseology.
I want burning, burning.
Be friends
with your burning. Burn up your thinking
and your forms of expression!
Moses,
those who pay attention to ways of behaving
and speaking are one sort.
Lovers who burn are another.”
Don’t impose a property tax
on a burned out village. Don’t scold the Lover.
The “wrong” way he talks is better than a hundred
“right” ways of others.
Inside the Kaaba
it doesn’t matter which direction you point
your prayer rug!
The ocean diver doesn’t need snowshoes!
The Love-Religion has no code or doctrine.
Only God.
So the ruby has nothing engraved on it!
It doesn’t need markings.
God began speaking
deeper mysteries to Moses. Vision and words,
which cannot be recorded here, poured into
and through him. He left himself and came back.
He went to eternity and came back here.
Many times this happened.
It’s foolish of me
to try and say this. If I did say it,
it would uproot our human intelligences.
It would shatter all writing pens.
Moses ran after the shepherd.
He followed the bewildered footprints,
in one place moving straight like a castle
across a chessboard. In another, sideways,
like a bishop.
Now surging like a wave cresting,
now sliding down like a fish,
with always his feet
making geomancy symbols in the sand,
recording his wandering state.
Moses finally caught up with him.
“I was wrong. God has revealed to me
that there are no rules for worship.
Say whatever
and however your loving tells you to. Your sweet blasphemy
is the truest devotion.
Through you a whole world is freed.
Loosen your tongue and don’t worry what comes out.
It’s all the light of the Spirit.”
The shepherd replied,
“Moses, Moses,
I’ve gone beyond even that.
You applied the whip and my horse shied and jumped
out of itself. The Divine Nature and my human nature
came together.
Bless your scolding hand and your arm.
I can’t say what has happened.
What I’m saying now
is not my real condition. It can’t be said.”
The shepherd grew quiet.
When you look in a mirror,
you see yourself, not the state of the mirror.
The fluteplayer puts breath into a flute,
and who makes the music? Not the flute.
The Fluteplayer!
Whenever you speak praise
or thanksgiving to God, it’s always like this
dear shepherd’s simplicity.
When you eventually see
through the veils to how things really are,
you will keep saying again
and again,
“This is certainly not like
we thought it was!” -Rumi
👣
edit on 096FridayuAmerica/ChicagoMaruFridayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: iNobody
That is mere tribal mentality talking. Not objective study of the comparative fields. You are culture-bound and therefore myopic. The phrase 'God is One' doesn't mean your tribal concept of God is the only true one among false idols. It means God goes by different names in different religions, different forms, different masks.
No indeed. But truth is only found in God's word. If any teaching goes against it, it is false. Everything is held or discarded on this one fact alone, if it goes against what God teaches in the healthful words of truth, then it is wrong.
A curse was even put on any man or even angel that taught something other than what has already been revealed to us as the good news found in Holy Scripture:
(Galatians 1:8) However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed.
God is not divided against himself. There is only way way to life that is of the truth:
(Ephesians 4:4-6) 4 One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Jesus said that the majority of mankind are on a road leading off to destruction and death, and that the road to life is narrow, and hard to find, and hard to follow:
(Matthew 7:13, 14) 13 “Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.
Few are the ones that find it.
Those who love God's word, and heed what it says will find that road, because it is available to all.
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