Adolf Hitler's Views on Religion and Evolution

a reply to: Grimpachi

Informative post, thank you.

The swastika does go back much further like SevenThunders said but it isn't from those sources Hitler adopted the symbol. As you pointed out, it was from the church he attended as a small boy.

Tricky subject this, most people wouldn't touch a Hitler thread with a mouldy bratwurst and many people are missing the point of the thread entirely.

I can understand how many Christians balk at the idea that Hitler may be spoken of in conjunction with their beliefs.
Fair enough.
The OP is not trying to say so imho.

What the Op is trying to discuss is the completely insulting way that people link Atheism with Hitler and his appalling deeds.

That pi$$es Atheists off.

And it is just a lazy conclusion that people of faith like to jump to, and is just a way of denigrating Atheism which is an absence of belief in a deity and is far more complex than the simple duality of being a believer or not.

Basically the Op is saying (I think) that Atheists are sick of being linked to Hitler in the popular imagination. Its lazy thinking about a complex subject that suits the narrative of some people.

originally posted by: HumansEh
Basically the Op is saying (I think) that Atheists are sick of being linked to Hitler in the popular imagination. Its lazy thinking about a complex subject that suits the narrative of some people.

In the exact same way Christians today are sick of being linked with the Christian atrocities of yesterday. The real point is that people of all walks of life, whatever their beliefs, are capable of horrendous things. Atheists included. Those horrible things are not influenced by merely one aspect of their being either. It really shouldn't be a pissing match. I'm hesitant to say but it's because theists have one of the worst track records. That isn't to say atheists are any better, or worse. Take Stalin for example.. But this thread isn't about a debate over which type of society is the better type of society. Nor am I making blanket statements about that either. Basically things aren't always as black and white as people want to make them.

1. Hitler, on one level or another, was a Christian.

Do his actions reflect the vast majority of Christian traditions and morals?

2. Joseph Stalin was an atheist.

Do his actions reflect the vast majority of atheists and their values?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

In reality Stalin was not an "athiest" in the true sense (he was raised a Greek Orthodox and studied for the priesthood, spent 5 years in a seminary), but rather he supplanted Communism for any other form of church or religion. Communism was the religion. The guy just didn't like to share power, and having people devoted to religious principles (especially from foreign lands) was anathema to him.

Were Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot atheists?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
This thread isn't about blaming Christians for this or that atrocity. That's a whole other subject. It's about addressing the false claims about Hitler being driven by atheism and the theory of biological evolution.

You don't have to prove Hitler was influenced by Christianity to do that. You merely need to show where his ideas did, in fact, come from. I can see the "Jews as the inferior people" bit coming from Catholicism, but that neither explains his "survival of the fittest" ideas nor his belief that Aryans constituted a superior race. That idea might be traced back to scientific racism which was an idea that floated around before Darwin (although the idea of evolution was also a pre-Darwinian one.) It seems reasonable to believe that Darwin, however indirectly, influenced Hitler every bit as much as Christianity did (which, you've conceded, is not very much.)

It's about a guy whose personal beliefs were influenced by any number of racist, fantastical ideas, that he truly believed. Indeed the machinations of his mind became dangerous. But he still believed them.

Historians believe that the evidence shows he was more of a materialist and that he hated Christianity, actually.

Again, I have not denied, nay I have agreed, that Hitler was not a Christian in any "traditional" or "normal" sense of the word. I am showing that one of the things he was influenced by was Christianity and a faith in God. However minute that influence may have been, and however skewed and in error his version of Christianity was. I think early in life he was probably more of a "good ole boy" Catholic. If nothing else he had an appreciation for it.

If you had read the link I had posted, I'm not sure you'd hold those views

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Hitler was a False Christian, period.

From a Christian perspective, there exists the real possibility he is in heaven living it up! God only knows...

Actually there is no possibility for him going to heaven, what is possible is a resurrection for Hitler back to earth, where he would have to change his ways pretty quick or get dead again, but permanently.

Adolf Hitler believed in Eugenics. It was a belief that natural selection could be forced through genetic match ups.

The idea of Eugenics came from ... the UNITED STATES, where it was widely practiced in the 1910's and 1920's.

originally posted by: ATF1886
True true true but the problem with your theory is that he killed millions of people i dont think he was truly in line with GODS heart lets be honest with each other...a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I find it rather egotistical that any human being, whether it be Pope or a pauper, could claim to know God's heart. It's more than 2000 years (give or take) since the founding of Christianity and 4000+ years since Judaism. That any human being alive today could begin to fathom "God's heart" or "God's will" is down right egotistical.

Further, to examine the Hitler's actions and deem them non-Christian (or atheist)... I suppose we need to look throughout history at everything each religion or religious faction has done in the name of their belief and/or their version of God. The destruction laid upon this planet in the name of religion/God is absolutely abhorrent, to say the least.

I see several people that want to distance Hitler from Christianity by saying "he wasn't a Christian" and what he wrote was just propaganda, and agenda, or brainwashing. No matter what he was, he obviously had a religious background/up bringing... as most did back then. Again, ego talking - you didn't know Hitler and neither did I.

WakeUpBeer, great post, S&F. Interesting putting things in context. Honestly, up until this point I never ascribed a religious doctrine or lack of one to Hitler. I just viewed him as one seriously screwed up guy that was taking his anger out on the world.

originally posted by: WCmutant
I suppose we need to look throughout history at everything each religion or religious faction has done in the name of their belief and/or their version of God. The destruction laid upon this planet in the name of religion/God is absolutely abhorrent, to say the least.

As opposed to the destruction of the proponents of atheism undisguised as communism and its treacherous death toll

www.catholiceducation.org...

Stalin Mao Pol Pot all wonderful proclaimed atheists who killed more than all religions put together, though I do think atheism is a religion.
carm.org...

So lets not play the blame game, lets learn from the past and reflecton what we can do

Hitlers a weird one but as far as the religious overtones go they are there, at the end of ww1 having been injured on the front and thinking he was dying he received a visit from what he perceived as the virgin mary,the vision he received showed him as the one who would lead Germany from humiliation to greatness,and was on record as believing it was divine and his future was ordained.....also came across an interview with Malachi Martin an ex jesuit priest who had strong vatican links, where Hitler was discussed as being the only one who recognized one of the signs prophesied in Fatima ,a blood red sky at night which a according to martin, Albert Speer was at the Wolfslair with Hitler when this conversation took place and its detailed in Albert Speers second book, Hitler is said to have witnessed the sky and said, yes now it begins.. now we shed blood......should also mention martin is an exorcist who has undertaken a boat load of exorcisms who claimed Hitler was perfectly possessed, and having read eye witness accounts of Hitler having to be helped to the podium because he was so ill only to come alive with such energy it confused those even close to him, another example is his confrontation with bismarck and the sudden change from bullied to the bully that even the witnesses could not fathom.... But as the song goes "but i cant think for you, You will have to decide whether Judas Iscariot had god on his side".

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Another important thing that the world was "struggling" with all until UN was established after the War and the modern nation of Israel was founded— was «the Jewish Problem». Millions of people living in dozens of European nations acting like a nation being tossed here and there. Why was this a problem? you might say, well the thing was that most people seemed to believe the Jews had plans about taking over the world and take all the gold and dignity from them. Much thanks to stuff like «The Elders' Scroll» that Russian pre-KGB intelligence produced and distributed to found the «need» for the Jewish pogroms of the 20th century.

This «Jewish problem» was a political one, and with what was considered top notch science at the time, «racial hygiene» and «race theory», it became a scientific problem, and the Church had been demonising Jews for nearly two millennia, so there were naturally also religious issues, Jews killed Jesus as far as the Pope was concerned. The Jews were seen as bad genes, and most importantly, foreign genes. Europe were saturated with all kinds of ideas about genetics, darwinism, racism and they found unanimous support in mainstream science at the time— the War coming shouldn't really've surprised anyone. Read Huxley's «Brave New World» and Orwell's «1984» and you will see some of the ideas that were circulating. The War came, and it was only natural or what you could expect, looking at the course of science and politics leading up to the War. It was madness.

As for Hitler being Christian or atheist, it's arbitrary at best. What Hitler was doing and promoting was widely accepted science at the time. Churchill was a racist and an imperialist, USA was ruled by apartheid, France and Germany sported their respective nationalisms, and basically, if you weren't white, strong, healthy and tall in the West back then, you had problems.

a reply to: borntowatch

So ... your counter to a fairly obvious and established fact is to cite a religionist apologist website that has as its only claim to standing is that they automatically "know who is a believer and who isn't."

What happened to "judge not that you not be judged"? Oh, silly me, that's just in the Bible, which is only used as needed.

Stalin restored the Russian Church during WW2. You're intentionally co-mingling political deaths with religious deaths.

NOT TO MENTION that atheism is the ABSENCE of religion. Your own "belief" in the matter doesn't stand up to the facts.

So, indeed, let's learn from the past and reflect on what we can do to eliminate as many pointless deaths in the future, but let's not do so in willful ignorance of the role that all religions play in war and death, eh?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Adolf Hitler was not an atheist. In fact, he was a Christian. Specifically, Catholic.

It is quite unfair to single out Adolph Hitler as being Christian as though he alone was responsible for the deaths of millions of people. This would be as though to say that the women who agree to murder their children are the only ones responsible for well over forty million dead children. Just as the women had a host of like minded people so Adolph also had a great host of like minded people.

Most of the human race do mature and as they mature they also bring change into their minds. Hitler was no different. Remember that he was a young mindless and disturbed man at about the age of 26 or so when he wrote Mein Kamp and his ego was stroked by those who also used him to gain their agenda.

Germany was at about 60 million people in his youth with only about 1 percentage of Jews and 40 million Catholics and 20 million protestants. Germany was almost all submerged in Christianity and yet Hitler and his cohorts had no problem in gathering like minded people to join his great party. In fact he was very selective in choosing his master race and still had thousands willing to do his deeds.

So to blame only Adolph is not the true picture. We must blame all people who subscribed to his agenda. As he gave great speeches to the Christian nation, he only gave what they wanted to hear. Naturally he would not insist that the one percent of Jews be eliminated or the seven percent Christians who opposed him be also eliminated. That could be eventually remedied in silence from the masses. Well over ten to twenty million of his countrymen were eliminated but so gradually that alarm was not sounded till all was in place.

Who were the men and women behind Hitler? Even from America. What did the drugs to to his mind and body? What excuse did the millions of followers give for their own part in mass murder? Tens of thousands had no excuse except that they were also like minded people.

a reply to: Seede

Not sure if you're aware of these experiments. They explain a lot. Fascinating stuff.

www.simplypsychology.org...

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Not sure if you're aware of these experiments. They explain a lot. Fascinating stuff.

No Cogito, I was not aware of these experiments. Read your source several time and it is fascinating. Actually it gets downright scary how people can be controlled. Hitler was actually no different than what is walking the earth today, even as we speak. I get a little nervous when I hear someone disagree to the point of hate. Thanks for that article.

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Wow - this from your source:

Ordinary people are likely to follow orders given by an authority figure, even to the extent of killing an innocent human being. Obedience to authority is ingrained in us all from the way we are brought up.
People tend to obey orders from other people if they recognize their authority as morally right and / or legally based. This response to legitimate authority is learned in a variety of situations, for example in the family, school and workplace.

This is fascinating. I am half German (as are my two brothers) - my mom's mother was German, and my Dad's mother was also German.

The interesting part is that I have always BUCKED AUTHORITY - always. Since I was a little kid.
And my kids, too -
and their father was ALSO half German. Which makes them half German as well.

Germans are adamant about their point of view - that is true - and stubborn, and sometimes regimental. But - that does not mean they are 'obedient' to authority. On the contrary -
German genes (and descendants of same) are MORE likely to stand up and say

NO! I WILL NOT DO THAT! And YOU are wrong to do that! And I won't have any part in it!!!

But - hell, what do I know....Except that I am a balker - I have problems with authority. ........
BIG problems with authority.
I've quit so many jobs on principle of 'unethical' behavior and expectations that I'm now rather, well - unemployable.

Don't stereotype.

It's lame, and your post/info suggests any person of German blood/genes is a person who is willing to acquiesce to authority (whichever authority happens to be in charge).

It is a stereotype.
And it is wrong.



It is wrong.



That is all.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Wow - this from your source:

Ordinary people are likely to follow orders given by an authority figure, even to the extent of killing an innocent human being. Obedience to authority is ingrained in us all from the way we are brought up.
People tend to obey orders from other people if they recognize their authority as morally right and / or legally based. This response to legitimate authority is learned in a variety of situations, for example in the family, school and workplace.

This is fascinating. I am half German (as are my two brothers) - my mom's mother was German, and my Dad's mother was also German.

The interesting part is that I have always BUCKED AUTHORITY - always. Since I was a little kid.
And my kids, too -
and their father was ALSO half German. Which makes them half German as well.

Germans are adamant about their point of view - that is true - and stubborn, and sometimes regimental. But - that does not mean they are 'obedient' to authority. On the contrary -
German genes (and descendants of same) are MORE likely to stand up and say

NO! I WILL NOT DO THAT! And YOU are wrong to do that! And I won't have any part in it!!!

But - hell, what do I know....Except that I am a balker - I have problems with authority. ........
BIG problems with authority.
I've quit so many jobs on principle of 'unethical' behavior and expectations that I'm now rather, well - unemployable.

Don't stereotype.

It's lame, and your post/info suggests any person of German blood/genes is a person who is willing to acquiesce to authority (whichever authority happens to be in charge).

It is a stereotype.
And it is wrong.



It is wrong.



That is all.

No, it does no such thing. It suggests that human beings (from wherever) show a tendency to follow authority and some far more than others. Whether it is emotionally unsettling for yourself doesn't matter much. It is borne out by experiment and certainly in real world situations.

It's nice that you think you are a rebel, though it's not unusual for people to see themselves very unrealistically. Homo nosce te ipsum (roughly "man, know thyself") didn't become an ancient aphorism for nothing.

You seem to be viewing this through a "black or white (false dilemma)" fallacy. Good for you if (you think) you can't be swayed by authority. You are not everyone, however and that claim doesn't negate the experiments.

One of the greatest influences on the German populace was the effects of Luther, which left a smouldering resentment against the Jews for centuries. It made anti Jewish rhetoric and propaganda much easier and more acceptable. Though the war (and Hitler's/the Nazi's motives) seem to have had nothing much to do with religion.

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

It suggests that human beings (from wherever) show a tendency to follow authority and some far more than others. Whether it is emotionally unsettling for yourself doesn't matter much. It is borne out by experiment and certainly in real world situations.

Well, you are certainly right about that. And it isn't that it's 'unsettling', I know what I am.
Again - you're right - the average person is all too eager, and trained, to do whatever they are told. It starts in pre-kindergarten. And yeah, most kids succumb. But not all.

One of the greatest influences on the German populace was the effects of Luther, which left a smouldering resentment against the Jews for centuries.

The Jews had already been ostracized:

The history of Jews in the Middle Ages spans the timeframe of approximately 500 CE to 1750 CE.

That's from wiki.

But here's a reference from the same article:

The Passion of the Jews of Prague:
The Pogrom of 1389 and the Lessons of a Medieval Parody
BARBARA
NEWMAN

Outbreaks of anti-Jewish violence in late medieval cities were hardly rare. For that reason, among others, surviving records are often frustratingly brief and formulaic. Yet, in the case of the pogrom that devastated Prague’s Jewish community on Easter 1389, we have an extraordinary source that has yet to receive a close reading. This account,supplementing numerous chronicle entries and a Hebrew poem of lament, is the
Passio Iudeorum Pragensium,
or
Passion of the Jews of Prague —

www.academia.edu...

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

It suggests that human beings (from wherever) show a tendency to follow authority and some far more than others. Whether it is emotionally unsettling for yourself doesn't matter much. It is borne out by experiment and certainly in real world situations.

Well, you are certainly right about that. And it isn't that it's 'unsettling', I know what I am.
Again - you're right - the average person is all too eager, and trained, to do whatever they are told. It starts in pre-kindergarten. And yeah, most kids succumb. But not all.

One of the greatest influences on the German populace was the effects of Luther, which left a smouldering resentment against the Jews for centuries.

The Jews had already been ostracized:

The history of Jews in the Middle Ages spans the timeframe of approximately 500 CE to 1750 CE.

That's from wiki.

But here's a reference from the same article:

The Passion of the Jews of Prague:
The Pogrom of 1389 and the Lessons of a Medieval Parody
BARBARA
NEWMAN

Outbreaks of anti-Jewish violence in late medieval cities were hardly rare. For that reason, among others, surviving records are often frustratingly brief and formulaic. Yet, in the case of the pogrom that devastated Prague’s Jewish community on Easter 1389, we have an extraordinary source that has yet to receive a close reading. This account,supplementing numerous chronicle entries and a Hebrew poem of lament, is the
Passio Iudeorum Pragensium,
or
Passion of the Jews of Prague —

www.academia.edu...

Thanks. Anti semitism is known to have been prevalent throughout much of recorded history. Though we are talking about the "holocaust". Which is a little different in magnitude.

The prevailing view[30] among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[31] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the Nazi Party's attacks on Jews.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

That's true, too; I figured that by the OP title.

Being half German, and in one of those moods , I let it slip. Defensive about my ancestry, you know.
Sorry.
Thanks for your cordiality.

Reminds me of Fawlty Towers.....(somehow). The other half of me is English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Polish, Russian, and Finnish. Go figure.