Black Budget Programs Proven by Snowden

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: wasaka
a reply to: lucifuge


World-renowned political dissident Noam Chomsky says NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden should be welcomed back to the United States as a hero. Meanwhile, those who authorized the government surveillance he exposed should be on trial, not him. Chomsky also argues that while mass surveillance has been ineffective in stopping terrorism, programs like the global U.S. drone war (which he called "drone assassination program") have helped spread terror to areas all around the world. "That’s a global assassination program, far and away the worst act of terror in the world. It’s also a terror-generating program." www.democracynow.org...

While I take serious issue with the curtailing of our liberties and the ridiculous amount of secrecy we have over us these days, I have to disagree with him on several levels. Has there been a foreign act of terrorism on US soil since 9/11? No. Are drone attacks terrorism? No. If you are on our list, we're coming for you. Because you reap what you have sown. Plant bombs in schools? Attack our citizens abroad? Again, we're coming for you. I have no issue with that at all.

I can't really handle people who are so brainwashed that they still believe that only 911 is terrorism, but droning wedding parties and bombing the sh$t of whole cities is "not terrorism" because "they are on a list" and we are 'merica.

^Sure sign someone is asleep at the wheel.

For reference, the West has been attacking other countries, including those from whom these fighters come from, FAR more than vice versa, and in reality it was all started by the West. This is factually true from history. So once again, the whole idea "you be attacking us Muslim terrorists and hate our freedoms" is beyond idiotic.

Is that you GWB?

a reply to: lucifuge

I really don't feel it's going too far out on a limb to say that nothing you are 'discovering' as confirmed by this document was not part of a plan. What is being revealed may also be, part of the plan.

As an aside I gave to agree with StargateSG7 who said the real low blow is the massive amount of tax payer money used to pay unaccountable accounting firms (which may also be mainly 'legacy' retiree businesses, by the by) which do little more than obfuscate the salient points of potentially useful information - if we had it soon enough to call for oversight and fundamental change in a clearly broken system.

I can tell you with a bit of certainty others cannot; the system is broken - not because it was mismanaged - it is broken because our policy makers themselves set out to break it - decades ago. They are rebuilding it into their idea of what it should be... anybody scared yet?

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: wasaka
a reply to: lucifuge


World-renowned political dissident Noam Chomsky says NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden should be welcomed back to the United States as a hero. Meanwhile, those who authorized the government surveillance he exposed should be on trial, not him. Chomsky also argues that while mass surveillance has been ineffective in stopping terrorism, programs like the global U.S. drone war (which he called "drone assassination program") have helped spread terror to areas all around the world. "That’s a global assassination program, far and away the worst act of terror in the world. It’s also a terror-generating program." www.democracynow.org...

While I take serious issue with the curtailing of our liberties and the ridiculous amount of secrecy we have over us these days, I have to disagree with him on several levels. Has there been a foreign act of terrorism on US soil since 9/11? No. Are drone attacks terrorism? No. If you are on our list, we're coming for you. Because you reap what you have sown. Plant bombs in schools? Attack our citizens abroad? Again, we're coming for you. I have no issue with that at all.

I can't really handle people who are so brainwashed that they still believe that only 911 is terrorism, but droning wedding parties and bombing the sh$t of whole cities is "not terrorism" because "they are on a list" and we are 'merica.

^Sure sign someone is asleep at the wheel.

For reference, the West has been attacking other countries, including those from whom these fighters come from, FAR more than vice versa, and in reality it was all started by the West. This is factually true from history. So once again, the whole idea "you be attacking us Muslim terrorists and hate our freedoms" is beyond idiotic.

Is that you GWB?

Ad hominem is not a valid argument.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: cmdrkeenkid

Carnivore? Eschelon?

Yeah, we knew about NSA snooping back in the 1990's.

Nothing new from Snowden from us folks paying attention. We were called "crazy" back then though for it.

Exactly, nothing I have heard from him is news really.

BUT, to the average citizen with their heads in the sand for a long time, it is news.

However, just as they didn't want to know or seek to know before Snowden, and just as they have always rationalized all government actions based on cognitive dissonance and comfort, they too have rationalized most of the Snowden topics, especially domestic surveillance.

Ah, I see. So really this is just about being one of the cool kids to you, right? "Yeah, I knew about NSA snooping way before you did." WHO CARES? What, people aren't permitted to live their lives as they see fit? And if they do not eat sleep and breathe conspiracies and politics they forever forfeit their right to be outraged? Weak.

a reply to: lucifuge

Just something to consider: what fraction of the Chinese and Russian military & intelligence budget is not available with detailed public accounting?

Seems like all of it. The right headline: "US has 80% of military & intelligence spending accounted for in public".

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: cmdrkeenkid

Carnivore? Eschelon?

Yeah, we knew about NSA snooping back in the 1990's.

Nothing new from Snowden from us folks paying attention. We were called "crazy" back then though for it.

Exactly, nothing I have heard from him is news really.

BUT, to the average citizen with their heads in the sand for a long time, it is news.

However, just as they didn't want to know or seek to know before Snowden, and just as they have always rationalized all government actions based on cognitive dissonance and comfort, they too have rationalized most of the Snowden topics, especially domestic surveillance.

Ah, I see. So really this is just about being one of the cool kids to you, right? "Yeah, I knew about NSA snooping way before you did." WHO CARES? What, people aren't permitted to live their lives as they see fit? And if they do not eat sleep and breathe conspiracies and politics they forever forfeit their right to be outraged? Weak.

Um, first off, we live in a democracy, which only works with an informed and motivated populace. So simply on that note alone your perspective doesn't work.

Second, this info was not that hard to find out if one was doing their duty to be an informed citizen.

Third, NSA domestic surveillance without warrants is unconstitutional, violates our 4th amendment, and is un-American.

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: wasaka
a reply to: lucifuge


World-renowned political dissident Noam Chomsky says NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden should be welcomed back to the United States as a hero. Meanwhile, those who authorized the government surveillance he exposed should be on trial, not him. Chomsky also argues that while mass surveillance has been ineffective in stopping terrorism, programs like the global U.S. drone war (which he called "drone assassination program") have helped spread terror to areas all around the world. "That’s a global assassination program, far and away the worst act of terror in the world. It’s also a terror-generating program." www.democracynow.org...

While I take serious issue with the curtailing of our liberties and the ridiculous amount of secrecy we have over us these days, I have to disagree with him on several levels. Has there been a foreign act of terrorism on US soil since 9/11? No. Are drone attacks terrorism? No. If you are on our list, we're coming for you. Because you reap what you have sown. Plant bombs in schools? Attack our citizens abroad? Again, we're coming for you. I have no issue with that at all.

I can't really handle people who are so brainwashed that they still believe that only 911 is terrorism, but droning wedding parties and bombing the sh$t of whole cities is "not terrorism" because "they are on a list" and we are 'merica.

^Sure sign someone is asleep at the wheel.

For reference, the West has been attacking other countries, including those from whom these fighters come from, FAR more than vice versa, and in reality it was all started by the West. This is factually true from history. So once again, the whole idea "you be attacking us Muslim terrorists and hate our freedoms" is beyond idiotic.

Is that you GWB?

Ad hominem is not a valid argument.

I offered several non ad-hominem arguments, which are completely valid and demonstrable. I also offered ad hominem attacks or value judgements. I do think it is atrocious that many Westerners continue to justify the history and take zero responsibility for what the West has done.

It's no better than a German having supported Hitler in attacking other countries.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: wasaka
a reply to: lucifuge


World-renowned political dissident Noam Chomsky says NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden should be welcomed back to the United States as a hero. Meanwhile, those who authorized the government surveillance he exposed should be on trial, not him. Chomsky also argues that while mass surveillance has been ineffective in stopping terrorism, programs like the global U.S. drone war (which he called "drone assassination program") have helped spread terror to areas all around the world. "That’s a global assassination program, far and away the worst act of terror in the world. It’s also a terror-generating program." www.democracynow.org...

While I take serious issue with the curtailing of our liberties and the ridiculous amount of secrecy we have over us these days, I have to disagree with him on several levels. Has there been a foreign act of terrorism on US soil since 9/11? No. Are drone attacks terrorism? No. If you are on our list, we're coming for you. Because you reap what you have sown. Plant bombs in schools? Attack our citizens abroad? Again, we're coming for you. I have no issue with that at all.

I can't really handle people who are so brainwashed that they still believe that only 911 is terrorism, but droning wedding parties and bombing the sh$t of whole cities is "not terrorism" because "they are on a list" and we are 'merica.

^Sure sign someone is asleep at the wheel.

For reference, the West has been attacking other countries, including those from whom these fighters come from, FAR more than vice versa, and in reality it was all started by the West. This is factually true from history. So once again, the whole idea "you be attacking us Muslim terrorists and hate our freedoms" is beyond idiotic.

Is that you GWB?

Ad hominem is not a valid argument.

I offered several non ad-hominem arguments, which are completely valid and demonstrable. I also offered ad hominem attacks or value judgements. I do think it is atrocious that many Westerners continue to justify the history and take zero responsibility for what the West has done.

It's no better than a German having supported Hitler in attacking other countries.

I think it's ignorant that people like you clearly do not know enough World history to realize that America is not even at the top of the mountain as far as atrocities go. And thanks for going to the "Nazi Germany" card. Consider yourself outed and ignored.

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: wasaka
a reply to: lucifuge


World-renowned political dissident Noam Chomsky says NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden should be welcomed back to the United States as a hero. Meanwhile, those who authorized the government surveillance he exposed should be on trial, not him. Chomsky also argues that while mass surveillance has been ineffective in stopping terrorism, programs like the global U.S. drone war (which he called "drone assassination program") have helped spread terror to areas all around the world. "That’s a global assassination program, far and away the worst act of terror in the world. It’s also a terror-generating program." www.democracynow.org...

While I take serious issue with the curtailing of our liberties and the ridiculous amount of secrecy we have over us these days, I have to disagree with him on several levels. Has there been a foreign act of terrorism on US soil since 9/11? No. Are drone attacks terrorism? No. If you are on our list, we're coming for you. Because you reap what you have sown. Plant bombs in schools? Attack our citizens abroad? Again, we're coming for you. I have no issue with that at all.

I can't really handle people who are so brainwashed that they still believe that only 911 is terrorism, but droning wedding parties and bombing the sh$t of whole cities is "not terrorism" because "they are on a list" and we are 'merica.

^Sure sign someone is asleep at the wheel.

For reference, the West has been attacking other countries, including those from whom these fighters come from, FAR more than vice versa, and in reality it was all started by the West. This is factually true from history. So once again, the whole idea "you be attacking us Muslim terrorists and hate our freedoms" is beyond idiotic.

Is that you GWB?

Ad hominem is not a valid argument.

I offered several non ad-hominem arguments, which are completely valid and demonstrable. I also offered ad hominem attacks or value judgements. I do think it is atrocious that many Westerners continue to justify the history and take zero responsibility for what the West has done.

It's no better than a German having supported Hitler in attacking other countries.

I think it's ignorant that people like you clearly do not know enough World history to realize that America is not even at the top of the mountain as far as atrocities go. And thanks for going to the "Nazi Germany" card. Consider yourself outed and ignored.

I would be willing to bet I am substantially more educated on history than yourself.

When any citizen of any country lays blame on only the enemy, and justifies all war crimes, atrocities, aggression, etc, by their own country, they are guilty of supporting war crimes. That is unconscionable.

Is the US as bad as Nazi Germany? No.

Has the US and West been invading countries, manipulating countries, couping leaders, installing dictators, removing elected leaders, etc ad infinitum? It is demonstrable via history.

You outed yourself when you began saying our works are not terrorism.

Illegally invading Iraq, in an unproved act of aggression, and resulting in the deaths of at least 200,000 Iraqi civilians, is an act of terrorism.

To justify that is as bad as any other justification of a war crime, including by a Nazi German.

Many of the so called "terrorists" are simply fighting back with unconventional warfare.

You can't say "well Hitler was a 10 on the scale of war crimes and the US is a 6, so it's perfectly okay to justify American wrong-doings but not okay to justify Nazi ones."

a reply to: lucifuge

$53 billion. That's what? One spaceship?
How many tons of coc aine is that? And more to the point, how much of it can a stealth bomber hold?

The Air Force classified budget for FY16 is around $33B. That includes almost $19B for procurement. Total classified budget for the DoD is a little over $62B.

originally posted by: HUMBLEONE

Whats a **SNIP**joke?

Well, ok, here you go:

Once, a long time ago there was a mohel who performed more circumcisions than all other mohels. And one day he was talking to a friend of his and the friend asked, "You've performed so many circumcisions, have you made anything from the foreskins?" And the mohel said that yes, he had made a wallet from all the foreskins he had collected. The friend said, "You've circumsised so many children, you must have collected dozens of foreskins, and all you have made is a wallet?" And the mohel replied, "I know it's just a wallet. But when you rub it, it turns into a briefcase."

originally posted by: lucifugeIt is ironic that the U.S. would begin a devastating war, allegedly in search of weapons of mass destruction when the most worrisome developments in this field are occurring in your own backyard. It is ironic that the U.S. should be fighting monstrously expensive wars allegedly to bring democracy to those countries, when it itself can no longer claim to be called a democracy when trillions, and I mean thousands of billions of dollars have been spent on projects which both congress and the commander in chief know nothing about.

what happened america? you use to be a place that was respected and made people want to live there. now adays i dont even think illegals want to live in america anymore. they probably keep running until they reach canada.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I completely forgot about Carnivore and Echelon. I was a bit younger when those came to light.

(My previous post was completely sarcastic though, no offense intended. Too many celebratory sodas at the time.)

Recent classified budget amounts.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Soooo....Snowden "proved" something that's already been proven and is fairly common knowledge? That there's a black budget, and that black budget pays for black programs?

How revelatory.

cut him some slack will ya snowden is giving sites like ats that have been preaching these conspiracies for years some credit. something tells me you dont know the whole snowden story very well.

a reply to: lucifuge

Is this how they got those bbt's off the ground?

a reply to: JourneymanWelder

Except black projects aren't a conspiracy. They've been a normal part of the defense budget for decades, and known about even by people that don't follow military programs.

That there is a "black budget" isn't that surprising, given that for some SAPs they'll tell you the bottom line number but won't give you an itemization. For others, you can find out (if you look in the right places) that there is a non-line item budget in the billions that is in the open, that covers huge swaths of project groups.

There are other budgets that don't even appear there.

And you can mis-allocate other budgetary groups for research and small development projects in such a way that you can't tell what happened to it.

For example. We've done a number of small, fast, one-shot classified projects that were funded off of the SBIR budget. That is a classic thing - it's not just us, that's a "normal" way of doing it. If THEY® need something looked into quickly, a week or two of research or a bit of engineering done, and it's less than $100K, an LTC or above can stroke you a check with no real documentation as to where it went out of the "non-solicited SBIR budget" or "other funding".

You can buy crap with credit cards, too, and THAT's not tracked on a line item other than "credit card purchases", and trust me, NSA and DIA will buy boards that way every day of the week.

That's not even addressing money gathered by front organizations, which look like something nice and wonderful and are sluicing income into side-funded black projects that are off the GSA radar totally. Like, say, university foundations which I won't mention.

a reply to: Bedlam

You mean like the $2,000 toilet seat? Or the $600 hammer? Heh.