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Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

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posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 01:52 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a
I see no merit to this choice of metaphors. A new, more honest metaphorical and mythological account of spirituality must be devised, one that touches closer to the truth. I think "trying a new hobby" or "imagining" might be more apt than "travelling into levels" and "exploring new territory". You are literally doing the opposite of travelling. You are litterally doing the exact opposite of exploring. You are not searching, following paths, or advancing forward in any shape or form, and I think it gives a bad name to true explorers and travellers. To sit down, close the eyes, and assert that I am travelling and exploring is beyond contradiction. There is nothing harrowing nor adventerous about it. Is this idea a metaphor for something, or a lie? I do not understand why we cannot call it what it is—retreat, resignation, falling-backwards, hiding, sleeping, hibernation, closing the senses, uninterestedness.


You have the right to your opinion.
I will tend to see it in terms of psychology, and see active discovery of new information as a sort of exploration into unknown. The same way historians might, or mathematicians.

There are harrowing and adventurous things about it, for there are things operating within us that are sometimes very hard to face. Deep conflicts with self esteem, or repressed hurts and angers, or very natural processes at work like the Oedipus complex, can be so difficult to uncover, face and deal with that many people simply avoid looking within out of fear of what challenges lie in there!

My spiritual practices increased reception of the senses, so I can't help but just reject the "closing the senses" stance.

Right now, my eldest son has always been the one kid that had some problems growing up. He has had trouble being responsible- paying is bills, taking care of papers and important business. He gets himself into trouble just because he procrastinates (and smoked pot, I suspect). He also is extremely sensitive like me, and has the same difficulty using telephones, (that I used to have). He gets so absorbed in caring about others, he neglects himself.

Right now, he went into some spiritual phase, where he is learning to meditate, to use visualization, self analyzation, eating well, stopping all bad habits like pot, and exercising. To add to his job as a EMT, he is going into training to become a hypnotherapist. He's full of talk of chakras and such, and reincarnation. Now, on one hand, my husband and I started rolling our eyes and saying he's going off the deep end.

But ! Because of all this, he suddenly started to take care of all the crap he was not doing before! He is keeping in touch with people, he is finally setting off on a trip he has always said he wanted to do, to meet his real father, and has established regular and deep contact with a half sister. He finally decided to move out of the tiny studio/hovel he's lived in for years and get a bigger nicer place.
He has made huge strides in his life in the last two weeks, that just have us impressed as hell! I mean, he is actively getting out there and dealing with the world, when he wasn't before. We are watching exactly the opposite of what you claim *all* spiritual practices to be.

So hold onto your generalization if you wish. I find it extreme and see actual real examples that it has holes in it.
edit on 11-3-2015 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 05:42 AM
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Spirituality boils down to the question of continued consciousness after death, when a "spiritual" person is able to sense non-physical attributes, then they can conclude that they are of a non-physical nature themselves and thus they can ascertain that death is not truly the "end".



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 08:59 AM
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a reply to: SystemResistor

A very concise explanation of spiritual belief

Though I would suggest that the spirit or soul is also physical ... but made of most refined substances that are undetectable ... Undetectable for the very good reason that "We" are not to be trusted with such information



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 09:08 AM
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Your words:



They are charitable and charming and seemingly indifferent to what others think of them.


I know that I am certainly indifferent to what others think of my spirituality and how deeply, or for how long I decide to venture into that realm to continue to strive to be, or remain to be charitable and charming to myself as well as others.



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 09:21 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: bb23108




The heart yearns for union with reality - and this yearning drives the individual to seek such union in an endless variety of ways - from physical union to mystical union to divine union. None of this seeking works because union with reality is already the case. No other world than the one we appear in now is necessary - reality is as present here as anywhere.


I have to agree. I think it should be admitted, however, that most of reality is found outside, with very little of it found within. No so called inner-worlds would exist without something outside to relate to.


i neglected to address this point, the "looking within". im sure you are familiar with the classic save the billionaire or save the immigrant family scenario. you cant rescue both, time constraints and whatnot. which would you save and why?



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 09:42 AM
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a reply to: Bluesma

A real-world example. Like I said, spiritual people do well exactly when they are not being spiritual, when they are facing the world. Pot, too, is a spiritual practice, and you can watch the babas and their clouds of hemp smoke in India. But being active, taking control of one's life, changing careers, is not the domain of spirituality. That is not spirituality. A belief in reincarnation does not lead to any of these lifestyle choices, and I can take you to Asia to prove this. Meditation does not lead to these lifestyle choices, to nicer apartments, to career choices, and it almost sounds like you're going to sell me The Secret after, and I can show you meditating ascetics to prove this. Not only that, but non-spiritual people accomplish these feats just as easily, and perhaps are even more inclined to do so.

Now I do not know your son, but he sounds sort of like myself. He's changing. He's growing. These are not the results of his spirituality. Not even close. His lifestyle, his career, his attitude, and even his spirituality, are the results of what he was before, his childhood, his family, and his environment. He should be thankful for someone like you, not Hinduism.



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 09:47 AM
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a reply to: InTheLight

That makes you strong. That makes you good company.



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

I would save the immigrant family because there are more of them.



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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a reply to: SystemResistor

What non-physical attributes do you speak of, and through which senses do you sense them? It's common to hear such claims, but very rare to hear an explanation.



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 11:26 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm

I would save the immigrant family because there are more of them.


why does that matter? they barely speak english and will never repay you.

what does that do for you if you save them instead of the billionaire?



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 12:12 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope


Meditation does not lead to these lifestyle choices, to nicer apartments, to career choices, and it almost sounds like you're going to sell me The Secret after, and I can show you meditating ascetics to prove this. Not only that, but non-spiritual people accomplish these feats just as easily, and perhaps are even more inclined to do so.

David Lynch, the film director, speaks about when he discovered Transcendental meditation and how it transformed his life. He says that a side effect of TM is that negativity starts to recede. Anxieties and fears drop away and the anger too he says, he used to take his anger out on his wife and two weeks after starting TM his wife was the one to notice that his anger had lifted away.
In this clipped clip he tells more.

When one is depressed creativity does not flow.
Here is the full version.
The inside story on transcending the brain, with David Lynch, Award-winning film director of Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks, Mulholland Drive, Inland Empire (filming); John Hagelin, Ph.D., Quantum physicist.


edit on 11-3-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 12:50 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
This is it, it couldn't be any different and no one is doing it.
Not a popular message for a identified person because he wants to exist.
This is dying while alive.
Seeing through the illusion of the I.
Paul Smit.


Actually this has become a very popular message these days. Many people are on youtube talking about this non-dual insight about life just happening. I guess this insight is interesting enough and may help people relax, but basically I don't see or feel any real transcendence of their ego-I whenever I watch their videos.

They always seem to be dwelling in a kind of mental disposition of the observer function of the mind, noticing that everything is happening from that point-of-view.

But their hearts don't feel full of love, and their body-minds do not seem to be transformed with the real energy and light of reality.

This is a very common error that quasi-non-dualists have made, probably ever since non-dualism was given to the masses. It was for precisely this reason non-dualism was not given to the masses - people misunderstand that such a teaching requires great understanding and discipline! As I have mentioned before, this "talking school" approach to non-dualism is called the "stink of enlightenment" in the Zen tradition.

This mental disposition that recognizes something about the truth of non-duality is often used to justify apathy, detachment, laziness, no real discipline, no service, and the rest. And this is why such threads as this one and the "Detachment is Apathy" thread get created.

To simply be in the position of the observer, noticing life is just happening and feeling like even "I" is happening, is something people can feel good about because it seems to give them a (mental) freedom from the sufferings of the body and its constant thinking. But they are still abstracting from the body-mind with this mind-based "observer" technique. This must be transcended as well and that requires great discipline, adherence and surrender to reality itself. Few show these signs.

Given these two are speaking from Tiruvannamalai India, I assume they are at Ramana Maharshi's Ashram. He was a great and very unique eastern spiritual adept who clearly showed various signs of actual awakening - beyond all this mental insight relative to the "I"-thought.

What these two people are speaking of is not really what Ramana Maharshi taught relative to non-dualism. Ramana Maharshi spoke much about realization of the Self as the heart, as Reality, beyond all conditionality, and the signs of this realization were clearly obvious in his eyes, feeling, and his devotees' testimonials. The "talking school" types show few if any such signs, but hopefully recognition of this life-separative error will unfold.

edit on 3/11/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 01:09 PM
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originally posted by: bb23108


This must be transcended as well and that requires great discipline, adherence and surrender to reality itself. Few show these signs.
For what purpose? You say 'it must be transcended' for what result or goal are you thinking is at the 'end'?
These apparent people have suffered and they can only know by the fruit, as in how life is now compared to how it was prior.







edit on 11-3-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
You say 'it must be transcended' for what result or goal are you thinking is at the 'end'?





They all claim that the "I" doesn't exist, but it clearly is operating in them. Individuals who identify with a mental point-of-view/insight tend to talk the talk but not walk the walk. It is a case of mind trying to abstract from the body. They see the body as a problem that must be escaped.


edit on 3/11/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 01:34 PM
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a reply to: bb23108
Ok. But what is it supposed to change or make better? What way do you expect them to walk?



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 01:39 PM
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originally posted by: bb23108
It is a case of mind trying to abstract from the body. They see the body as a problem that must be escaped.


Not at all. The body is what is appearing as sensation. There is only what is appearing but there maybe the illusion that life is happening to someone but there is just what is happening.
Life is happening right here and now always but if there appears to be someone 'in there' then they will no doubt be 'there and then' a lot of the time - in abstract thought. Life is being escaped when one lives in time and space in the mental realm - if life is played out in thought, there will be that separate me appearing in all the dramas.
Life is really sensational.
edit on 11-3-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 02:00 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: bb23108
Ok. But what is it supposed to change or make better? What way do you expect them to walk?


When the mind abstracts from the body, the heart does not fill the being with love because the energy is locked in the head. There are yogic signs associated with awakening, and this insight business is just a beginning at best.

Unfortunately, when people get a taste of non-dualism, they figure that's it, free at last - let's start touring and giving lectures! Hardly the awakening the actual adept realizers are speaking of.


edit on 3/11/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 02:07 PM
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a reply to: bb23108
Is this one to your liking?

And his message?



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 02:12 PM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain
Yes, it is obvious to my heart that he spoke the truth and did not abstract himself from the body-mind or life itself.

edit on 3/11/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 02:24 PM
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a reply to: bb23108
All videos that I post are speaking the same message. There are so many speakers speaking the same message in different ways, flowery ways, intellectual ways and Paul Smit used to be a comedian and presents it in a jokey way to companies. It is great to hear different expressions. The bible is one of the oldest pointings along with the tao te ching - it is a timeless message arising pointing.
The mind will continue to express but instead of the story of me arising - words and ways of pointing may arise instead. Speaking or writing.

edit on 11-3-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



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