Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Idk man, I reread the OP & this is what I see, by paragraph:

I have a friend staying with me who claims to be spiritual. I hate incense & her choice in music. Being spiritual is futile. I went to a temple once where they asked for voluntary donations at the cost of their own personal dignity. Enlightenment isnt possible if not applied materialistically. I perceive spiritual people as being weaker than me. The idea that they think they can achieve understanding via spiritual practice bothers me the most (direct quote).
Picture someone meditating, only soccer moms meditate, there is obviously no practical benefit to meditating.
More rambling about meditating, Russell brand, & children meditating.
Spirituality is a form of resignation, & promotes narcotics. Spirituality is a narcotic. Spirituality promotes selfishness. All humans are selfish, you're not special.
I have spiritual friends, I love my spiritual friends, they're amazing & fun.
Then the very last paragraph is just you trying to be clever.

Ya, this is a rant, plain & simple.

"Metaphysics is a philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world that encompasses it."

Just not getting that from your thread here.

I don't relate much to the "giant service to humanity" thing- I don't feel a drive to become a famous mover and shaker of the world that will be immortal in the minds of men for centuries. Some people do, and I say, if you feel it, follow that drive! But why tell others they "should" also?

Maybe it is just because I am female, a child bearer, so my ambitions are smaller, on a much more personal scale- if my spiritual practice allows me to do an act, as a mother, a sister, a wife, a friend, that can have a positive influence on one persons life, my spiritual practice has been successful.

If listening to tinkling music and burning incense helps my body relax, and my thoughts travel inward gently, to face internal conflicts with honesty for an hour, that may be exactly what allows me to say something to someone later that turns out to be sincere and constructive, rather than deceptive, conflictual, and destructive.


I share a belief in being active in life, at least in phases where that is in sync. But I don't personally leave behind that spiritual connection and practice. I make time for BOTH. There is "massive clean up", and then there is "daily up keep" of the internal world.

I sometimes have the impression that some people who had a "good enough" childhood, with an ego formed that is fairly balanced, find it very hard to understand that others might need a total rehaul- a complete tearing down of self concept and rebuilding from scratch that can seem to be quite non-constructive or passive on the outside.
But the acts that you will do will be chosen from that internal world- that is where they are born. Not tending to the health and state inside is like saying it doesn't matter if a pregnant woman spends her time drinking, smoking and shooting up- the only important thing is that she makes babies!

But then, spiritual, introverted drives are most often found in those who want to change their internal world. And some of them have had such a terrible experience at the beginning, that they just cannot come back out. Myths all over the world speak of magical or enchanted forests, or caves, in which great treasure or gifts lay, as well as terrible risk of never being able to get out.

So many get there, and like the call of sirens, are lulled by the "peace" of internal power, they just don't want to step back out, into a world where they feel powerless. Spiritual quest becomes an effective coping mechanism for the self, rather than something with any benefit to offer to the world or others.

From what I can see, and I might be mistaken, but most people like that see the exterior world of duality as harsh, painful, terrible. Read some of the people who deny their self here- to actually be involved in relation calls up terrible experiences for them! To enjoy life is to fear death; to have a self concept is to be constantly furious at all those who do not perceive that concept in the same way; to care is to hurt.

I don't know if such perceptions are solely based on their own past experiences with a tormenting twisted ego, or if it is just a view that they integrated by spiritual gurus/salesmen, who describe the world in such ways, the same way Jehovahs Witnesses start off at your doorstep trying to point out the current world conflicts, and "isn't it terrible? Doesn't it seem like the world is falling apart? Doesn't it make you feel despair? "
*nod head a lot, and watch the mirror neurons at work*
"Well, I have got the answer to that feeling!!!"

(Maybe that is where pharmaceutical companies got their methods )

But in any case, if the spiel works, it is because there already is present some sort of pain, and they are just pressing on it.

So it doesn't seem to me that being harsh and incriminating has any chance of pulling them out of that forest. It only reinforces their view that coming out here to play will get them hurt.
Just my own view, and perhaps only a approach for some individuals. I don't know. *shrug*

Start by looking in the mirror and try to inquire into the nature of who and what you really are. Try doing some meditation focus on your breath and count to 10 over and over while focusing your attention on your third eye, do this for about an hour daily. Your path will unfold in time, dont be concerned with what others are doing or what they believe, just put your own spiritiual shooes on and walk, rather than trying to pave the earth in your beliefs.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I wonder how you would define spirituality, my understanding of that word is spirit/spiritus, the non physical side, but also spiritualitas, aliveness, set in motion.
The meaning of the word religion to me is 'searching for what is meaningful in life' what is your interpretation of that word?

In my view, spirituality and religion cannot be separated from each other.
Spirituality is the spiritual development (or should we say mental development?) of an individual.
Religion is a spiritual journey in life on which we develop ourself spiritually/mentally.
That requires discipline, the meaning of the word discipline to me is 'the ability to learn'.
For this, one must be its own authority, obviously, because if one seeks authority in books and others, priests-imams-guru's and so on, there is no development but indoctrination, one simply follows and is educated in whatever he follows, moreover, one becomes what one follows.
And when one has become enlightened, a christian, a buddhist, a muslim, a hindu, a witch, a shaman and so on, one will be parroting what he has been taught and indoctrinate others.

All that might be put under the name spiritual because it deals with the non physical side, but in essence it is just a pile of knowledge which pollutes the pure.
It is anything but spiritual development in my view.

If one wants to learn how to ride a bicycle, a description is not going to help him, one can have a whole library full of books on what a bicycle is, how to sit on it, what to do to move forward, but in the end he simply has to do it, practise in order to learn, have the discipline to keep practising despite falling, ride the bicycle and learn how to keep his balance on his own in a straight line and through bends.

Some people have great discipline, they raise what they do to a whole new level in a creative way through practise and trying new things because they see possibilities.
Seeing and doing, that in my view is spiritual development of an individual.
And they offer the world new creativity, after all, the known is not creative because doing something which is already known is simply a repetition, nothing new.

A balance in life in my view is heaven and earth united, one can sit in a described position and live in his mind for tranquility and serenity, in the end it is mere self hypnosis, sometimes captivated by a reward at the end of the path one follows.
Seeing and doing, meditation through observation and interaction in order to see what lies behind the facade, that requires tremendous attention.
The whole point of meditation is to see and understand, from the root to the flower and the fruit.
Learning can only be through interaction, doing is learning.

a reply to: Bluesma

Exactly so. And that's why I find spirituality stupid. It's a sugar pill. It's Xanax. Spirituality is about seeing the world as evil and suffering, as evidenced by every religion on the planet, and then doing absolutely nothing about it but trying to escape, or at least up the dosage. It's the favouring of internal worlds, which are only ever about the size of the person thinking them. It's selfish. It confuses the rest of the world with oneself. Plain and simple.

Forget harsh and incriminating. Let's try honesty, for once.

a reply to: earthling42

It's an old word. To me it is still about the primacy, or rather, lust, of the mental over the physical. It is closing the eyes rather than opening them. It is going back to sleep rather than waking up. It is jumping off the rope rather than balancing our way accross.

I think your definition works.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

This is the philosophy section of the website. Metaphysics is a part of philosophy. Besides if you have to run and grab a dictionary, you probably never knew what it was in the first place. Read some philosophy, and get back to me.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

Spirituality is about seeing the world as evil and suffering, as evidenced by every religion on the planet, and then doing absolutely nothing about it but trying to escape, or at least up the dosage.

Spirituality is a lot of things. Among them is seeing the hidden alliance between evil and good.

Forget harsh and incriminating. Let's try honesty, for once.

If you should someday summon the courage to come to my peyote church for a spiritwalk, you'll eat your words before you leave.

If you don't come, then in my eyes you'll be just another armchair critic who didn't have the balls to challenge his beliefs.

Sorry if that's overly harsh. I'm just indulging in honesty.

👣

a reply to: BlueMule

Not harsh at all. Shamanism is a dying bread. I can understand the desperation for new members.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

How in the world can you compare a sugar pill with Xanax? You are indignant, self righteous, & pretentious.

I'm well aware what section of the forum this is. FYI, there's nothing philosophical about your thread. in my opinion, you're not even ranting, your straight up whining.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

I'm comparing spirituality to Xanax.

I'm sorry but you've never met me. You are only hearing and seeing yourself when you read my words.

It sounds like you are now the one who's whining.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: BlueMule

Not harsh at all. Shamanism is a dying bread. I can understand the desperation for new members.

Shamanism isn't a dying breed. It is the root of world religion and myth itself. Every religion that ever was and ever will be is simply a variation, a commentary.

There is no desperation behind my offers. The peyote way doesn't need new members, and I wouldn't gain any money from you, if you joined. My only motive is compassion for a confused seeker.

👣

a reply to: BlueMule

Let's be honest. It's the root of drug dependency.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Bluesma

Exactly so. And that's why I find spirituality stupid. It's a sugar pill. It's Xanax. Spirituality is about seeing the world as evil and suffering, as evidenced by every religion on the planet, and then doing absolutely nothing about it but trying to escape, or at least up the dosage. It's the favouring of internal worlds, which are only ever about the size of the person thinking them. It's selfish. It confuses the rest of the world with oneself. Plain and simple.

Forget harsh and incriminating. Let's try honesty, for once.

Well, I guess I only partly agree with you. It can be that. In some cases it isn't. It all depends upon the individual.

For some people, they come into a world that IS pretty awful, they are subject to suffering that really makes them crippled emotionally, and unable to do the big moving and shaking you support.
Or if they attempt it, it is ineffectual, badly chosen and badly carried out battles, that do less good than bad.

There are emotional cripples in the world, and I just feel like yelling at them and beating them over the head with a stick is not going to help them heal. It might make them retreat further into their shells.


But I will stand up to the premise that all spiritual exploration and development is only and always that, I think you are wrong.
But sometimes, I think you only say such things for the fun of provocation and argumentation.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

If your so concerned about spirituality and religion being stupid and useless.

Why didn't you find it useless to create a thread about it?

Or you only made the OP to instigate and bash other people because your life is unfullfilling and mundane?

If it weren't, and you were a happy accepting individual, what others believe wouldn't bother you enough to instigate and bash people's way of life, to me one of the lowest things a person can do.

This is a rant, glittered with ignorance and stamped with arrogance.

Go find your way, don't bash others because they found theirs

a reply to: Bluesma

That is fair enough. But let's call it what it is. There is no exploring going on. There is no travelling. There is no developing. They are literally not travelling. Literally not exploring. Literally not developing. There are sitting. They are sleeping. They are being as still as possible.e these grand adventurous metaphors simply do not work.

a reply to: Elementalist

You have literally found nothing. The dishonesty is tantamount to lying. Get over yourself.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Bluesma

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Eunuchorn

I'm comparing spirituality to Xanax.

I'm sorry but you've never met me. You are only hearing and seeing yourself when you read my words.

It sounds like you are now the one who's whining.

And that's why I find spirituality stupid. It's a sugar pill. It's Xanax.

By rule of logic you think a sugar pill & Xanax are interchangeable. Your ignorance is only matched by your unbridled condescension & contempt for those that you don't approve of.
For someone who understands that we've never met, you sure seem to know a lot about me. /sarc

You sir, are a troll & I can respect that. My world views naturally troll people, as well. I Just don't pride myself on being judgmental, which you so obviously do.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Bluesma

Exactly so. And that's why I find spirituality stupid. It's a sugar pill. It's Xanax. Spirituality is about seeing the world as evil and suffering, as evidenced by every religion on the planet, and then doing absolutely nothing about it but trying to escape, or at least up the dosage. It's the favouring of internal worlds, which are only ever about the size of the person thinking them. It's selfish. It confuses the rest of the world with oneself. Plain and simple.

Forget harsh and incriminating. Let's try honesty, for once.

But sometimes, I think you only say such things for the fun of provocation and argumentation.

Sometimes? Every post I've ever read by LesMis is dripping with this.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Spirituality is about seeing the world as evil and suffering, as evidenced by every religion on the planet, and then doing absolutely nothing about it but trying to escape, or at least up the dosage. It's the favouring of internal worlds, which are only ever about the size of the person thinking them. It's selfish. It confuses the rest of the world with oneself. Plain and simple.

Forget harsh and incriminating. Let's try honesty, for once.

Yes, it is certainly true that most spiritual aspirants in most traditions look to escape from this world because they understand that it is a place of suffering and death. So they turn inward with various techniques in the hopes of experiencing some distance from this world.

Much of what is experienced is brain-based phenomena, though there certainly are worlds more subtle than this one, in which the difficulties of the gross physical body can be forgotten for a time. But all of this experience is still confined to the mechanism of attention/mind, and so the suffering that is felt at heart is not undone.

The heart yearns for union with reality - and this yearning drives the individual to seek such union in an endless variety of ways - from physical union to mystical union to divine union. None of this seeking works because union with reality is already the case. No other world than the one we appear in now is necessary - reality is as present here as anywhere.

What is actually required is that we notice that we are already in union with reality from the beginning, and on that basis, discover how we are constantly dis-engaging from that union, rather than looking for ways to engage it, as though it was not already the case.

We are all arising in reality, always, and whether we seek high or low, such seeking is futile. Reality must simply be recognized moment to moment and the activity of separating from reality, regardless of what world we appear in, is understood and released.

Only then will the heart-yearning for union be filled with the excellences of communion or unity with what is real.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

By rule of logic you think a sugar pill & Xanax are interchangeable. Your ignorance is only matched by your unbridled condescension & contempt for those that you don't approve of.
For someone who understands that we've never met, you sure seem to know a lot about me. /sarc

You sir, are a troll & I can respect that. My world views naturally troll people, as well. I Just don't pride myself on being judgmental, which you so obviously do.

No I do not think a sugar pill & xanax are interchangeable. Your logic is held together by bubble gum. Your ignorance? Who cares, really.

If you don't pride yourself on being judgemental, why should I take your judgement seriously? Don't worry; I don't.