Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
People explore places they can actually go to.

And these places can be places where you have not been.

After reading the OP, I felt like I was on an operating table being dissected.

Not a feeling I generally associate with Spirituality.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: LittleByLittle

What if there is a part of "you" hiding in the unconscious that you are afraid of letting surface into the conscious and therefor refuse to have moments in contemplation just being aware of everything around you being a silent (in the mind) observer of yourself?

One of the reason people meditate is to learn how to turn off chatter in the brain. To be able to focus to a higher degree.

What if there isn't a "you" hiding in the unconscious? Actually, we already know that. We've looked.

Why turn off the chatter in the brain rather than use it? I don't like the idea of suppressing our abilities because we cannot handle them.

I looked myself and found something. Seems your data and my experience differ in view.

Also who do you think can concentrate more? A person with 40 moments of consciousness or a person like Dalai Lama that have 80-100 moments of consciousness per second measured?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope


If you are saying "spirituality" itself is stupid, I don't think you know what spirituality is. It is connectedness with all. We share 98% of our DNA with the earthworm, we are related to a tree. If you follow the path of evolution back. it becomes smaller organisms and forward more complicated but it all started with one cell, dividing. There are people who speculate where that one cell came from...if it came from an intelligent source, it is likely that we share a connection with that too. If it is all random ...then random is something else.

Just a couple things to say.

Spirituality and religion are almost opposites of each other.

People who brag about spirituality don't quite understand it yet.

Meditation is the pretty much in my experience the best drug I have ever done, and its healthy for you, and it has been proven to be very good for your brain.

When I am meditating I am doing far more than staring at the backs of my eyeballs.

For one I am relaxing my body as much as possible, and it feels good.
I am also trying to think of nothing at all, it sounds easy but its very hard.
At the point of my mind being cleared i start to feel like my mind is expanded like a balloon and then you feel like your on a roller coaster ride. It feels good and its fun.
From there my body will usually start to feel like its buzzing with electricity and i start seeing and hearing strange things.
The buzzing becomes so intense it feels like my body is vibrating violently. Then I pop out of my body and explore a different reality/dimension.

The possibilities are literally endless.

Spirituality to me is understanding and exploring physical and non physical reality to get a better understanding of what the hell we are all doing here.

Not quite staring at the back of your eyeballs and claiming you know everything.

a reply to: booyakasha

I have never popped out yet. . I go from energy body state to laughing/singing child mode instead. But that is quite nice also. Feeling the caress of energy all over your body.

Have a little fun for me on your expeditions.

I have mixed reactions to the OP... the word spirituality seems to be used to describe such a vast array of experiences, practices, beliefs, I find it hard to generalize in the same way.

I consider myself a spiritual explorer, and yet find myself continually coming up in opposition with other spiritual types who have a certain view of rejecting the world of matter and physicality. My spiritual "quest" had times of pulling out of extroversion for long periods of time, but seemed, eventually, to bring me right down into it, with feet on the ground and a true joy in acting, living, relating. Even the experiences of struggle, conflict, "negative" emotion, all took on a less sinister light.

For me, some of the more independent philosophies and practices called to me. I probably most relate to the concepts Carlos Castaneda wrote of- the way of the warrior. I think I only read one of his books, long ago, but it reflected my path and my intents.

I didn't read more, because probably the main point is internal freedom. I never want to follow too closely the steps of others, because knowledge of self is not to be found outside. The self, as I use it basically refers to my body, and my consciousness, all the levels of it. I may not be able to choose the challenges of the exterior world, but if I can choose my internal reactions to it, then that influences my behavior. Because behavior, I found has such deep roots sometimes, and we don't choose any of it in the moment. However, it can be pre-programmed in a way similar to a computer program.

You can program your mind in ways which plant seeds that will grow in the subconscious, and eventually give forth fruit...meaning action. Action which is integral with the self concept. This has felt to me to be part of bringing my different parts together. The subconscious so often seen as the subversive enemy to the ego, when it is the ego that has the reins, but just hasn't been choosing it's actions and thoughts with a view towards future actions; without awareness of it's power.


Like people who don't know how to ride, and get on a horse, and start kicking it forward, while pulling back on the reins, and pushing it sideways with their seat, telling it to stay put with their weight distribution. The horse throws up it's head in confusion, and either freezes up or rears, unable to respond to all the mixed messages, and the rider proclaims-
This horse is a real A-hole!

Yeah, at that point, I say, get off, pull outta here for a while, go take lessons, and you'll be ready to go out on trails in a year or two!

That is the way I see spiritual growth- yes, there is a phase you might need to pull out, go inside, learn how to master yourself... but the whole point in doing that is so that you can come back out here later, and really have fun with that body and mind in this exciting world!

Then there are those who take the stance, after that first experience in the saddle, that horses are just wild crazy things, that everyone should just keep a distance from and observe from a distance- observe your own body and it's movements with detachment. (and they spend their time yelling up at you, "Get off! Get off! Don't you know you are in danger up there? " They don't know what they are missing.

Yes, I stumbled upon all kinds visions and awareness that go beyond this place, and ended up in a huge nothing- I remain aware of those. Yet, I still feel an immense curiosity and love for this level, and this is where my consciousness is right now, so be it.

“For me the world is weird because it is stupendous, awesome, mysterious, unfathomable; my interest has been to convince you that you must assume responsibility for being here, in this marvelous world, in this marvelous desert, in this marvelous time. I want to convince you that you must learn to make every act count, since you are going to be here for only a short while, in fact, too short for witnessing all the marvels of it.”
― Carlos Castaneda, Journey to Ixtlan

I'm currently in a bay room in hospital with 3 other men, who fart and snore all day and night. All 3 seem to be extremely depressed. No surprise it's a neurology ward, with some serious health issues. I have found meditation has made me able to cope with these conditions, given me a feeling of equinimity in a situation I have very little control over. I accept I'm here and accept that for now this is the way things are. If I hadn't meditated I think I may have been a lot more reactive to the situation. A lot more angry and full of self pity. Instead I get on with my day, be as pleasant as I can possibly muster and rest as much as possible. I've also found meditation allows me to sleep through the snoring and farting of my roommates. Sleep that is most valuable in such a situation. So I'm finding many benefits to my practice of meditation in my current situation. I'm sure a whole bunch of Valium would make me feel better too, but I find they are a little mean when it comes to dishing out such addictive medications on neurology wards. So I do what I can which is meditate in my bed. Which works well in such a stressful situation. It's something I enjoy rather than listening to music and watching films

But that's what is usually taught, where the main lesson of every religion is where God's looking at us saying "What are you stupid?" and not really specifically saying or being vague on what the problem is. And has to teach with out destroying a city or wiping a species by crying a river on an epic scale like Gilgamesh, sending us to hell, so we can ascend to heaven after the red sea blue again.

O wait, God did teach that way.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

it is always nice to read your posts, the way you express your thoughts and feelings is just wonderful to read. But I rarely agree with the content. But I still read them and try to learn from your point of view and try to get something out of it. And I am never disappointed in that regard, at the least I always get good english lesson from your posts

There are many views about what spirituality is and what motivation is behind it as can be understood if only one reads all posts in this topic. So this is a broad term which can be very hard to define because it is very personal thing and everyone has its own perspective and experiences because he or she is on their own path of life.

about meditation:
Saying that it is meaningless to meditate, like it is just staring at the backs of my eyeballs... If meditation was just that I don't think it would stay with humanity throughout the ages, how come do you not realize this? You can get many things from sitting in silence and just observing yourself. What do you get from it? it is entirely up to you! Better ask yourself what do you want from it? Your imagination is the limit!

for more you can check super description by Walter Russell:
www.youtube.com...

about spirituality:
I bet you that your spiritual friends would not be the same to hang around with if they would not be spiritual. They need their spiritual time for meditating and contemplating so that they are who they are in the present.
Spirituality defines you and you define it and it can change, develop. But in general it should make you a better being for all living beings (love, compassion, unity). It should make you cultivate more and more all the different virtuous (honesty, generosity, gratitude,... ) and it should make you realize about your faults and bad habits and how to transcend them to make you a better person.
Real spirituality should make you strive to be the best version of yourself which you can be depending on situation and somewhere along the path, if successful, there will be union with the ALL, self-realization or enlightenment.

And a perfect tool to make that a reality is meditation. They go hand in hand. You think you can only know yourself by external inputs. But in my view that is false. You can only know your true self internally by contemplation and observation of your mind and figuring out our thoughts or feelings (in general or relating to something or someone). And by doing that I am knowing myself better and coinsedently I can respond better to different situations as I can view situation from different angle without attached thoughts and fillings and not just the one which is the most obvious, which most people do.

It's another interesting thread by the op. I enjoy their threads like I enjoy doing a crossword or Sudoku puzzle. I was taught the practices of meditation through the secular approach of mindfulness based stress reduction. I would say there's a lot to be said to the method, especially when dealing with stressful situations in ones life As far as spirituality goes, I think it provides people who are put off by religious dogma an alternative avenue to explore something larger than themselves. I believe there is a part of the brain that seeks the religious experience and spirituality in whatever guise may help fill this neurological desire.

There are many stages in the life cycle of an ego as there are many stages in the life cycle of stars. There are stages of extroversion and stages of introversion. No stage need be forced prematurely, and no one stage is superior to another - all expression and energy exists as part of a cycle of change.

O.P. your dilemma seems not to be the conflict between "spirituality" and pragmatism but rather an apparent conflict between extroversion and introversion.

A person who is moving into introversion may well have explored and expressed extroversion in an earlier time - was perhaps a blazing sun in the firmament. Or then again that person may be at the end of a cycle of introversion and moving towards extroversion. It is a personal matter. The interest in science is part of extroversion as it requires concentration and an outward flowing energy through the eyes - outward perception. Introversion is the mirror reverse of this type of energy flow. The extroverted energy flow appears to provide greater health vigour and confidence. The backward flow of awareness and intent certainly has its dangers - especially the obsession with one's own thoughts and feelings promoting self-consciousness. This is probably where you judge such people as being self-obsessed or projecting an air of superiority which you find annoying. But every journey begins with a single step.

True meditation is not the result of any practice and is not the opposite of any other state as is the case with introversion and extroversion. It is the absolute centre of the wheel of cycles. That state is glimpsed through one's awareness being caught between two opposite polarities - defying reason and intent.

Because of the nature of this glimpse the experiencing cannot be rationally explained and can only be indicated through a poetic approach and it is not surprising therefore that masters of this approach are also known as mystics. Because without the rational extroverted interpretation of reality, the perception does begin to fall or rise into the realms of the mysterious and unexplainable.

The eyes can penetrate outward or the eyes can penetrate inwards. but godliness is hidden in an unexpected place = inside the eyes themselves.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

I recently took in an ill family member in an attempt to offer a garden in which to continue her battle, at least something different from the landfill she is in habitual relation with. I love her dearly, but she considers herself “spiritual and not religious”, and lets me know quite often how “spiritual” she is. Although I am polite and a gentleman, given my discriminating tastes, you might understand how I would respond to a situation in which incense and spiritual sounds on compact disc have become the norm. But it has offered an objective view of a type I used to find in myself during my younger days.

Yeah, that sounds like a tough situation. My sympathies to you both. My suggestion would be for you both to come to my peyote church for a spirit walk. The peyote spirits might be able to help her with her illness, and help you to see with new eyes. Or, consider an ayahuasca retreat. There are lots of great ones out there. If you want help choosing one, just ask.

Best of luck.

👣

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Hey LesMis!

"Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid".

Wiki's definition of spirituality: Spirituality

"Spirituality is a process of personal transformation, either in accordance with traditional religious ideals, or, increasingly, oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth independently of any specific religious context. In a more general sense, it may refer to almost any kind of meaningful activity or blissful experience. There is no single, widely-agreed definition for the concept."

I don't think that is stupid.
Other people may not witness an individual's "personal transformation"...."meaningful activity"...or "blissful experience". Doesn't mean it's not happening.

You might be feeling hungry, but I can't see that. Is hunger stupid?
I will be back later after I burn some more incense, meditate and then listen to some Black Sabbath, lol.
To each their own.
jacy

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

But they are most important the exact times they are not being spiritual, when they get out of and get over themselves, actively engaging in life.

i disagree. i think such people as i have known them prove their worth at those times when life as you describe it, in the "here and now" becomes too heavy to bear. there are ideas that, as irrational as they may strike you, still pose a terrific emotional toll when we become mired in despair or fear. hope can be a difficult thing to hold onto and sometimes you need a little more than "well you got screwed this time johnny, enjoy those three months you have left". sure, you cant fix stupid - but not everyone is stupid. just like not everyone is a psychopath. spirituality has done both good and evil, but to say that it has not yielded healing and growth is dishonest.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

Spirituality might work if it wasn’t so stupid.

LOL! How could I resist such a title, and seeing you wrote it didn't surprise me.

I agree with much that you say but clearly you are generalizing based on your own experiences and perhaps your readings on ATS and various new-age techniques to feel better.

Real spirituality requires an openness to discovering what is the truth, without any pre-conceived notions about, nor control of, what that may be. It is real inquiry, not just believing whatever and becoming fixed in some technique to feel better.

So I notice that I am always in a condition of relatedness, that this whole body-mind is always related to others and things. This tells me something about our nature and our relationship to what is real. And so on, starting with the most obvious - what we see right in front of us - goes the discovery...

a reply to: woodwardjnr

I'm currently in a bay room in hospital with 3 other men, who fart and snore all day and night. All 3 seem to be extremely depressed. No surprise it's a neurology ward, with some serious health issues. I have found meditation has made me able to cope with these conditions, given me a feeling of equinimity in a situation I have very little control over. I accept I'm here and accept that for now this is the way things are. If I hadn't meditated I think I may have been a lot more reactive to the situation. A lot more angry and full of self pity. Instead I get on with my day, be as pleasant as I can possibly muster and rest as much as possible. I've also found meditation allows me to sleep through the snoring and farting of my roommates. Sleep that is most valuable in such a situation. So I'm finding many benefits to my practice of meditation in my current situation. I'm sure a whole bunch of Valium would make me feel better too, but I find they are a little mean when it comes to dishing out such addictive medications on neurology wards. So I do what I can which is meditate in my bed. Which works well in such a stressful situation. It's something I enjoy rather than listening to music and watching films

I cannot compete with your honesty here. Perhaps honesty in spirituality is needed most of all. I would have no problem if someone told me spirituality is something they enjoy, that it is fun, and leads to feeling good. Given your situation, I imagine any enjoyment or beneficial activity is difficult to find. I would suggest that some form of creative output could help with the situation, for instance writing or drawing, but sometimes any level of output is painful. I've been there.

a reply to: TzarChasm

i disagree. i think such people as i have known them prove their worth at those times when life as you describe it, in the "here and now" becomes too heavy to bear. there are ideas that, as irrational as they may strike you, still pose a terrific emotional toll when we become mired in despair or fear. hope can be a difficult thing to hold onto and sometimes you need a little more than "well you got screwed this time johnny, enjoy those three months you have left". sure, you cant fix stupid - but not everyone is stupid. just like not everyone is a psychopath. spirituality has done both good and evil, but to say that it has not yielded healing and growth is dishonest.

Yes, I think the mind-numbing ointment-like application of spirituality is well documented, and such hope is often beneficial as a means to placate our symptoms when in certain environments. But it is by no means a cure to our condition, and our compulsion to view the world as it isn't, rather than as it is, leads to a dependency even long after the despair has subsided. That being said, full-frontal lobotomies offer the same type of healing.

As for growth, yes, any type of activity will alter ones being. As I mentioned, whatever we are doing we are getting better at. The question is whether one is growing in the right direction or not.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Yes, I think the mind-numbing ointment-like application of spirituality is well documented, and such hope is often beneficial as a means to placate our symptoms when in certain environments.

no different from taking tylenol for a raging headache, if thats how you want to look at it. and who are you to shame anyone for that? suffering is not obligatory. save that for the religious (notice i didnt say spiritual).

But it is by no means a cure to our condition, and our compulsion to view the world as it isn't, rather than as it is, leads to a dependency even long after the despair has subsided. That being said, full-frontal lobotomies offer the same type of healing.

i like my tylenol analogy better. less of a permanent fix and more of a situational therapy, a la nyquil and flu season. everyone has their cloudy day of the soul and everyone has their go-to for it. perhaps a responsible dose of anti depressants would eliminate the need for a lobotomy, if you catch my meaning. perhaps that means spirituality, maybe it means an actual trip to the pharmacy.

what "cure" would you suggest?

As for growth, yes, any type of activity will alter ones being. As I mentioned, whatever we are doing we are getting better at. The question is whether one is growing in the right direction or not.

i fully agree. we may not learn from our mistakes, but we certainly get better at hiding them. it almost seems as though this stems from embracing our human fallibility as evidence of its divine polar opposite. the more we screw up, the more visible our "blessings" become. and again, this would seem to capitalize on the margin of deniability that both protects the divine cause from investigation and, by the same token, verifies it. but would you impugn a magician for making a crying child laugh?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Something could only go so far inward before it becomes a point or nothing at all.

What is that imaginary something that fears being swallowed up by nothing?

Here is a little thought experiment. If there was absolutely nothing being sensed - no thought, no sensation - what would you be?
You are blank and that emptiness that is always here, is filled with what is appearing here.