Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

a reply to: UniFinity

The world doesn't't care what you do in dreams or while on drugs; only you do. Self-seeking behavior doesn't effect just one person however.

I should have said this before to make myself clearer, I apologize. This is not just a normal dream. You are outside your physical body and you/your awareness/your consciousness/any other label/ can travel and explore the world from new perspective where you can encounter other beings or humans.
And from there you can get knowledge and experiences of all kind, because astral plane is relatively limitless compared to ordinary physical reality.

I had a few experiences like that, some spontaneous and some were intentional but it was enough of a proof for me to set in stone in my mind that I know nothing about my real self.
And when this events were started happening, I knew I should let go of my pride of knowing myself and change views for my body/mind, because there are deeper levels to understanding the truth of myself and the universe. From than on I started to know that I do not know nothing!

My previous post was just to present, anyone interested in truth, the path for knowing himself better. It was just a suggestion, for you and anyone who reads this nice topic, to discover the proof which some so desperately want to have!

What do you do from there, it is all up to you! You will just have a knowing that you are more than your body and mind! And that is the point which you stubbornly argue with spiritual people for proof.
It is relatively easy to get some experience or prove of your spirit if you really want it. But most people just beat around the bushes with a stick called thinking instead of doing something earnestly and honestly - without preconceived beliefs.

we think too much, we do too little. I don't remember who said that, but that person was right

And I would just like to add, that I was similar to most of the sceptics, with a slight difference - I am a doer, I like to experience everything for myself and I do not want to believe something just because someone said it is so.

And someday, around two years ago, I started to meditate just for the kick of it and then at first some wired pressure was felt on my forehead and immediately I was intrigued. What is this feeling? At that point I did not had any knowledge about the chakras, kundalini, meditation ... spiritual stuff in general. And the rest is history...

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: bb23108

Who or what's sense of being are we speaking about? No one's or nothing's? If no one's or nothing's, there is no sense or being. Only if there is a body is there any being or sense. The same goes with awareness. There has been no case of awareness without a body ever witnessed. point to me awareness, you would point to a body every single time.

Your're literally speaking about nothing, bb, using nonsensical terminology to force your assumptions on others. This is depraved.

You are avoiding my question. I have already said that proving awareness beyond the body-mind must take the self-evident approach because awareness is unconditional and cannot be measured by scientific methodologies.

However, you are not actually proving that you are the body-mind - but are skirting the issue by basically saying it is self-evident from looking in the mirror!

Forcing my assumptions on others? This is a consideration, or so I thought. Where am I forcing anything on anyone?

Depraved? What are you talking about? Or is it because you cannot give us actual proof to your claim, that you are the body, that you resort to this kind of name-calling?

this entire thread was an exercise in futility, people. go home, lesmisanthrope isnt interested in your cookies no matter how many times he visits your factory to make fun of them.

and lesmisanthrope, boarding up your emotional windows doesnt make you appear more cultured. it just makes you look lonely. thats what i sense from you, through all these threads. maybe im wrong, but there you have it.

my final adieu to this discussion, i hope it was worth your while.

“Sharing is the essence of teaching. It is, I have come to believe, the essence of civilization . . . Without it, the imagination is but the echo of the self, trapped in a soundproof chamber, reverberating upon itself until it is spent in exhaustion or futility.”
Bill Moyers

a reply to: bb23108

You are avoiding my question. I have already said that proving awareness beyond the body-mind must take the self-evident approach because awareness is unconditional and cannot be measured by scientific methodologies.

However, you are not actually proving that you are the body-mind - but are skirting the issue by basically saying it is self-evident from looking in the mirror!

Forcing my assumptions on others? This is a consideration, or so I thought. Where am I forcing anything on anyone?

Depraved? What are you talking about? Or is it because you cannot give us actual proof to your claim, that you are the body, that you resort to this kind of name-calling?

What sort of proof do you want? I've provided countless argument and evidence. Do you need a doctors note or something?

You have provided nothing. Yes. This sort of dismissing of evidence and argument is depraved.

a reply to: TzarChasm

this entire thread was an exercise in futility, people. go home, lesmisanthrope isnt interested in your cookies no matter how many times he visits your factory to make fun of them.

and lesmisanthrope, boarding up your emotional windows doesnt make you appear more cultured. it just makes you look lonely. thats what i sense from you, through all these threads. maybe im wrong, but there you have it.

my final adieu to this discussion, i hope it was worth your while.

I seem to recall you getting bent out of shape because I was not responding to you. And perhaps you're back to remind us how lonely you really are. Brilliant.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
What sort of proof do you want? I've provided countless argument and evidence. Do you need a doctors note or something?

You have provided nothing. Yes. This sort of dismissing of evidence and argument is depraved.

You have only ever provided evidence of the self-evident nature. The real reason you cannot provide actual proof is because you are not actually the body - it only seems that way. How do you think you can actually prove such a thing? Looking in the mirror is not proof - it at best fits a "self-evident" approach.

So you are saying I am being morally corrupt, perverted, or wicked when you use the word depraved. And here I thought I was having a real consideration with you. Well, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me...

a reply to: bb23108

What is actual proof? You continue to widen your goal posts.

I said not following arguments, evidence or reason is depraved. Do you disagree?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: bb23108

What is actual proof? You continue to widen your goal posts.

I said not following arguments, evidence or reason is depraved. Do you disagree?

That is your requirement - to prove you are the body. You have only pointed at something that is self-evident to you - that you are the body. But this is certainly not self-evident to me because it is clearly not the case. You see, you can't prove it to me because it just is false, like the world is flat - a misconception based on what seemed right at the time.

My requirement was to argue that awareness is beyond the body-mind - which I admitted from the beginning was necessarily requiring the self-evident approach. In other words, one finds out for oneself.

You actually said "Your're literally speaking about nothing, bb, using nonsensical terminology to force your assumptions on others. This is depraved."

You tend to make these grand sweeping statements to dismiss EVERYTHING I have said, making it nothing because you have apparently no idea what I am talking about, or at least will not admit that you do. Then you said I am forcing these arguments on others and that is depraved. So if that is what you figure, then it is definitely time to move on.

This is an exercise in futility.

IF thou would’st hear the Nameless, and wilt dive
Into the Temple-cave of thine own self,
There, brooding by the central altar, thou
May’st haply learn the Nameless hath a voice,
By which thou wilt abide, if thou be wise,
As if thou knewest, tho’ thou canst not know;
For Knowledge is the swallow on the lake
That sees and stirs the surface-shadow there
But never yet hath dipt into the abysm,
The Abysm of all Abysms, beneath, within
The blue of sky and sea, the green of earth,
And in the million-millionth of a grain
Which cleft and cleft again for evermore,
And ever vanishing, never vanishes,
To me, my son, more mystic than myself,
Or even than the Nameless is to me.
And when thou sendest thy free soul thro’ heaven,
Nor understandest bound nor boundlessness,
Thou seest the Nameless of the hundred names.
And if the Nameless should withdraw from all
Thy frailty counts most real, all thy world
Might vanish like thy shadow in the dark.

‘And since—from when this earth began—
The Nameless never came
Among us, never spake with man,
And never named the Name’—

Thou canst not prove the Nameless, O my son,
Nor canst thou prove the world thou movest in,
Thou canst not prove that thou art body alone,
Nor canst thou prove that thou art spirit alone,
Nor canst thou prove that thou art both in one:
Thou canst not prove thou art immortal, no
Nor yet that thou art mortal—nay my son,
Thou canst not prove that I, who speak with thee,
Am not thyself in converse with thyself,
For nothing worthy proving can be proven,
Nor yet disproven: wherefore thou be wise,
Cleave ever to the sunnier side of doubt,
And cling to Faith beyond the forms of Faith
She reels not in the storm of warring words,
She brightens at the clash of ‘Yes’ and ‘No’,
She sees the Best that glimmers thro’ the Worst,
She feels the Sun is hid but for a night,
She spies the summer thro’ the winter bud,
She tastes the fruit before the blossom falls,
She hears the lark within the songless egg,
She finds the fountain where they wail’d ‘Mirage’!

a reply to: bb23108

Then I will apologize for my comment.

What would be sufficient proof for you? Photographic, video, and physical evidence are out of the question. My arguments and logic are seemingly invalid. Allow me to bend to your specific standards and I'll see if I can provide.

Life is the flight of the alone to the alone.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
Given how fully considered this issue has been, it would actually take me not surviving death to prove your argument to myself - but of course then there would be no one there to prove it to, if your argument was the case.

On the other hand, perhaps I could die and come visit you - but that seems a bit extreme in terms of our debate. Plus you would figure it was just something you ate anyway.

My point is, I have certainty about surviving physical death as I have so many times before. It is not really any big deal - in fact, it mainly provides motivation to transcend this endless universal patterning that constantly shifts and repeats itself until its limits are understood and fully transcended.

To me, assuming you are dead when your body dies is the cop-out.

Thank you for the apology, LesMis.

1.Energy can not be Destroyed.

2. Consciousness is an expression of Energy

3. At the time of Death, Consciousness moves from our current state. To interacting with the large scale structure of the Universe.

4. Due to EPR Paradox/Bells Theorem, Time is not a factor.

5. As far as we know the Universe is 93 billion light years wide and any thing that happens in the present, could be part of another perspective as a whole.


Any thoughts?

in all sincerity LM atheism, historically coincides with, "Flat Earth Theory".


What is your point?????

a reply to: bb23108

We know exactly what happens to a person when they die, friend. It is a cop-out to avoid the obvious in favour of wishes. But I can understand your need for hope.

a reply to: Kashai

I can't stand atheists either, Kashai. I prefer those of a spiritual nature. But that doesn't make them wrong. It might do the spiritual people some justice to be correct now and again.