Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
The appearance changes but that which sees is the same everywhere.

We were looking at the same thing.

It is that which perceives that is never changing.

You just don't get it, do you?

spiritus,
to breath, to be, breath of life, and everything that goes along with it.

How to be Ultra Spiritual

youtu.be...

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: bb23108

Awareness changes all the time. A bottle of tequila will prove that for you, friend. A brain injury, or dementia, blindness, sleep, or any environmental factors upon the object changes its awareness, and significantly alters it.

Awareness is dependent on objects because only objects can be aware. To say that nothing is aware is to negate awareness altogether, given that adjectives describe things and not nothings. It’s a self-refuting statement, bb. I cannot agree with it, and I see no reason why you should either.

We do not experience a perception. The only way we could be aware of awareness is if the body was aware and we were the body. We do not experience the ability to see and hear—once again, we do not see seeing, and we do not feel feeling. If so, what does seeing look like? What does feeling feel like? What perceives perception? What perceives the perception of perception? What perceives the perception of perception of perception? What is aware of awareness? What is aware of the awareness of awareness? It is illogical. It is without grounds. Rather, we see; we feel. That’s it. There is no reason nor evidence to assume something between oneself and what one sees. We have the capacity to see and hear and be aware of our environment. I cannot see any reasonable reason to conclude we are passive observers watching our capacities. The eyes are in direct relation to what they are viewing, not to anything called perception.

Profound reality consideration...any empty series of words can sound profound. Awareness just isn’t. If you’re in the business of releasing presumptions, release first the spiritual ones before the ones you can still use.

You equate awareness with objects and yet awareness exists whether we are awake or dreaming or in deep sleep. It is prior to conditional events. It is conscious being and it never changes.

If you feel into when you were 10 years old you can notice that awareness is the same then as it is now - it does not age.

If you feel into what awareness is after a bottle of tequila, it is not affected. One's perceptions certainly will be, but not awareness itself.

The conscious being or awareness itself is simply self-evident, unchanging, and yet does not stand apart from objects arising. It simply notices all that arises - but not as a subject over against the object, because all objects are non-separate modifications of consciousness or awareness itself.

You have never experienced any object apart from awareness. Awareness is not standing apart looking at objects and thus able to look at itself as an object - no, it simply is, self-evident being itself, the "medium" upon which all objects appear and disappear.

To realize the truth of awareness requires the being to notice more and more deeply that it is not fundamentally identified with anything arising including the mechanisms of the body-mind - that everything arising changes and passes from view without changing awareness or being itself one iota.

Being is prior to all conditions, but not separate from conditions because all objects are modifications of conscious being or awareness itself. This is why conscious being or awareness is self-evident whereas passing objects including the mechanisms of perception are not.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

“Consciousness itself” is secondary to the conscious object

I would say ... Objects are made of substances ... Substance existed first ... Conciousness in the sense of an original "Being" became aware of itself and it's surroundings ... Through Intelligence it found a way of manipulating the substances surrounding into a better way of Being ... this is the story of the Universe unfolding ... All things are linked ... This is my beleif

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
How to be Ultra Spiritual

youtu.be...

lol and then there is the true path of spirituality.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Bluesma


But "going inside" in accordance with spirituality is about being told what to think and do. The reverence for ancient texts and dogmas I think proves this. This is my problem with the "going inward" metaphor. Thinking and introspection about reality and our relationships with it requires one to think about things outside of himself, the relation to other outter things, not the things within, which if measured, amounts to very little. Recognizing a desire is not enough when that desire is always connected to something else.

I was a little confused for a moment, wondering what ancient texts and dogmas have to do with spirituality or "going within".

Then it dawned on me- you are speaking of religion, not spirituality. At least not in my view of spirituality, which includes cutting off all contact with others and of any study of any others spirituality.

But there are those who are religious, but claim they are not. They take part in rituals, and adopt belief systems and listen to gurus, and consider those "not religious".

No, I do not think any of those are necessary to explore spirituality. I think there can be benefits to those things, of another order, but do not see them as synonymous and did not consider them as the topic of the thread.
In my analogy, there exists anti-inflammatories which can cut down the process if it goes on too long, there can be ways of boosting your immune system (through diet, exercise, rest...) which will increase immune system response (but not inhibit it's inflamatory response- on the contrary, support it), but those things are not the cause of inflammation as a necessary and beneficial action of the immune system.

This is my problem with the "going inward" metaphor. Thinking and introspection about reality and our relationships with it requires one to think about things outside of himself, the relation to other outter things, not the things within, which if measured, amounts to very little. Recognizing a desire is not enough when that desire is always connected to something else.

Does thinking about things 'outside' oneself, happen 'outside' oneself?
Is there any thing to think about that is here that is 'outside' oneself?
Is it not just thoughts which are being thought about? Concepts appearing as thought (is that 'outside' yourself?) are moving around - they are measured against other concepts, concepts compared to other concepts, concepts conflicting.
What is there besides what there is? Where is the inside and outside to what is here now? Seeing, hearing, tasting and all sensation just arising as this.
It is just happening.

You are stating that when thinking occurs the main thought is the 'I thought' and it's relationship to reality. What if it was realized that the 'I thought' is just a thought (just an appearance) arising in reality.
Reality is not something other than 'here and now' and what arises in it, as it - is not separate from it.
Reality is like the ocean waving.

If there ever could be an 'outside' to reality it is where the 'I thought' seems to come alive - on the stage of 'there and then'. This is what might be considered being separate from God. Was Satan sent out of the Lords Presence?
There is only Presence but when Presence looks at stories about itself in time it has to have made an idol/image of itself. Presence has taken on the impression that it is a separate self - this is the mark (impression) of the devil.

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

“Consciousness itself” is secondary to the conscious object

I would say ... Objects are made of substances ... Substance existed first ... Conciousness in the sense of an original "Being" became aware of itself and it's surroundings ... Through Intelligence it found a way of manipulating the substances surrounding into a better way of Being ... this is the story of the Universe unfolding ... All things are linked ... This is my beleif

Consciousness is the space that appearing things appear in/on.
Try this little thought experiment:
Imagine yourself in deep sleep.................what is there? Do you even know that you exist in deep sleep?
There is nothing appearing in deep sleep so you cannot know that you exist.
It is only when there appears to be something to experience that you can know yourself as existing (Being). When the light comes on there is just the one image seen (see with the single eye) - see what is here and now. The thoughts will be speaking about 'there and then' because that is the only time when it 'thinks' it can do something - thinking happens now about other times because the staying in now is the death of the divided one (the illusory separate me).

Prior to there BEING any thing you ARE. But what are you? In deep sleep you appear to be nothing.
Without the empty space no appearing thing could ever appear. That nothing is the ground of all Being.

The screen on a tv is the space which allows a moving image to appear. The moving image is never separate from the screen.
Consciousness is the screen with a moving image appearing on it as it. All apparent objects are made of the screen (consciousness). The screen is just seeing and knowing itself always. The screen is still and stable with a moving image - find that you are the screen and you will come to rest.
Christ is the moving light of consciousness born out of the stable.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope


It’s not a quest for truth, but an escape from it.

Your 'spiritual' friends seem to have found peace of mind. The mind is peaceful when it is not full of concepts of how to appear better - feeling good enough there is no need for any thing. Peace is here prior to any thing - so truth could be found to be the peace, out of which all is arising and subsiding.

Believe it or not, when it comes to spirituality and spiritual folk in general, I am a delighted optimist. Most of my friends consider themselves spiritual. They are good company. They are accepting of others, and laughter is a prerequisite. They are charitable and charming and seemingly indifferent to what others think of them. It is pleasant to be around them in play and sensuality. If you find yourself at a large music festival, or a party, find the spiritual people and be with them. Get close to them. They are, in the universal and particular sense, great lovers. But they are most important the exact times they are not being spiritual, when they get out of and get over themselves, actively engaging in life.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Interesting and insightful description

Just for the sake of the discussion ... What would be your explanation for ... what powers the hypothetical screen you speak of and who manufactured it ... not a trick question by the way

Yes you speak of a form of oblivion when referring to Deep Sleep ... In a sense that is what I was saying as a starting point ... The Being is oblivious until it is concious ... by oblivious I mean without dream or concious thought ... so I "Get you" on that

It seems we each have our own way of describing or understanding Reality ...

originally posted by: artistpoet


Just for the sake of the discussion ... What would be your explanation for ... what powers the hypothetical screen you speak of and who manufactured it ... not a trick question by the way

Nothing powers it and no one manufactured it - it just is the space in/on which all things appear to be known.
It is the all knowing, ever present ONE. Nothing that was made (manufactured) was not made by it.

Yes you speak of a form of oblivion when referring to Deep Sleep ... In a sense that is what I was saying as a starting point ... The Being is oblivious until it is concious ... by oblivious I mean without dream or concious thought ... so I "Get you" on that

The 'form of oblivion' is just an idea arising in consciousness - consciousness is always not a thing (not formed as any particular thing) even when it appears to be something - it is appearing as everything.

lesmisanthrope was monologing and our reactions are entirely beside the point. thats the impression i have gotten before and continue to receive. he doesnt care what we think about what he thinks, he is just posting out of boredom and pedantry. a symptom, perhaps, of the sort of mentality that leads to these kinds of threads. a balancing act between apathy and clinical curiosity.

a reply to: Itisnowagain


So are you saying that Conciousness is the appearance/awareness of things

If so as individual aspects of conciousness we each have our own unique way of understanding it
And our descriptions of that understanding would vary though we would be speaking of the same thing ... what are your thoughts itsnowagain

a reply to: TzarChasm

Sometimes I think LesMes is continually searching for the one answer that will make sense to him and then allow him to venture forth into that realm where some of us journey (spiritually speaking). But it does seem that all of our posted experiences do nothing to aid in his understanding in 'how to get there', because for me it just is a natural happening and I cannot provide him with a guidebook.

Well seing as we talking about our friend Mis ... Hi Mis ... I will add that I find his posts enriching ... always good to have another's thoughts on things even if it does not correspond to our own.

My personal opinion is this ... It is not important to believe in afterlife as much as it is to live one's life respecting all other living things ... this is true spirituality ... in my book ...
I believe that Mis and all will be in for a nice surprise once we depart this walking coffin ... It will be a "Oh of course" moment IMO

a reply to: TzarChasm

I am never bored. I read and consider every single post. I deeply care what people think, especially when they are wrong. I am also not a topic, but I would be flattered, if not mildly concerned, if you wrote a thread about me.

a reply to: InTheLight

I am only a traveller. I prefer to walk on earth rather than in my head.

a reply to: bb23108


I assume that you, like itsnowagain, are under the belief that awareness is the screen or place where things appear?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I assume that you, like itsnowagain, are under the belief that awareness is the screen or place where things appear?

I think about things differently from itsnowagain ... Awareness is a personal thing ... Awareness is " knowledge or perception of a situation or fact " according to the dictionary ... I would say awareness occurs within one's thoughts

Edit to add ... Apologies Mis ... I thought your question/post was directed at me ...