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Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

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posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 01:58 AM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

The first key is that the individual believes themselves to be non-physical, of course, we know that what can be detected with the senses must have some physical nature, however, they would believe in the "sixth sense" and this paradigm would allow them to conclude that they are detecting their own "spiritual" attributes.

Secondly, they have developed their imagination to a level that they can "believe" in what they imagine, they can imagine that they are an eternal spirit for example, and even "feel" their (supposed) spiritual vessle "trapped" in their physical one, so, when they start to examine their feelings, they start to become "hypersensitive" to the goings on inside their bodies, and they are able to delve into their "inner space" to a point where they abstract that it must be thier "spirit" - this is often also accompanied by visual elements in their mind.

You can see when this "sensitivity" is coupled to spiritual beliefs, they are able to affirm (to themselves) that they are contacting their "higher form".
edit on 12-3-2015 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 02:03 AM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope




Most of my friends consider themselves spiritual. They are good company. They are accepting of others, and laughter is a prerequisite. They are charitable and charming and seemingly indifferent to what others think of them. It is pleasant to be around them in play and sensuality. If you find yourself at a large music festival, or a party, find the spiritual people and be with them. Get close to them. They are, in the universal and particular sense, great lovers. But they are most important the exact times they are not being spiritual, when they get out of and get over themselves, actively engaging in life.


I agree with a lot of what you say. Sitting in a cave and meditating never done anyone much good. You can have inner spirituality but still get out into the world and do your thing. No need to shove it down people throats either, if folks aren't interested then keep it too yourself. Organized religion is probably the worst thing.



posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 02:04 AM
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a reply to: artistpoet

At the moment we can only detect energy that is finite and exhaustible, any form of inexhaustible energy would exist in a constant "equilibrium" and would not react to testing.

I think that such energy constitutes what we are, not what is outside of ourselves, and thus it could not really be found by external measurements.

That being said, I believe that there are many "finer" energies that exist...
edit on 12-3-2015 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 03:45 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Meditation does not lead to these lifestyle choices, to nicer apartments, to career choices, and it almost sounds like you're going to sell me The Secret after, and I can show you meditating ascetics to prove this. Not only that, but non-spiritual people accomplish these feats just as easily, and perhaps are even more inclined to do so.


LOL- I am not here to sell anything, I assure you!

But you missed the point I tried to make (and was perhaps clumsy in my attempt).

For a person with, say, deep problems with anxiety, (like my son) meditation can aid them to gain some control over the thoughts and feelings that cause that anxiety. Real,measurable changes, that have been documented extensively.

Now, for someone without these sorts of psychological-physiological challenges, they might have trouble understanding how anxiety can even be an obstacle to such mundane tasks, as calling someone on the phone, or assuring their own physical needs which entail assertive behavior faced with others. But it can and is, for many.

In that way, you can call some practices, in some contexts, a sort of medication- they treat a problem. My advice to my son had actually been to go to a shrink, get on some antidepressants.... even though I myself have used techniques such as meditation, visualization, and others, I kept that a very private practice, I do not try to "sell" to anyone. I have gained confidence in my own ability to sort of compartmentalize- I know I can do that for a few hours, then be totally grounded later. I know there are risks of "addiction" and am not sure everyone can do that.

He chose these practices, and probably even in the exploration of reincarnation (not yet asserted as belief, but rather a curious examination of the hypothesis) the contemplation of this idea is having effects upon his mind and body which are allowing for old patterns of behavior and emotion to change.

Even anti-depressants can be addictive, but used in a limited period of time, as a phase, they can be key to changing the self.

I chuckle whenever I see people question, "What is the purpose of life?" ,
Why does there have to be any purpose? I don't think there is one, in any universal or static way.

But I suspect we all have the internal drive to determine one. It is through introspection that we can do that. Examining our desires and needs, our thoughts and emotions. I have a purpose- but only because I chose one. Doing so channelled my actions and efforts into a specific tragectory, become more powerful, effective, and integral.

Introspection is useful in determining ones chosen purpose, or goal. Without doing that, that drive will be filled with purposes others feed one with- the society which says "Your purpose is to consume", or "your purpose is to be admired", or "your purpose is to invent something useful for us",
Or loved ones which will feed us, "Your purpose is to fulfill my emotional or physical needs".

Any of these are equally fine to choose, but if you do not choose yourself, then you can be pulled, from one context to the next, to being what others around you want from you. ESPECIALLY if you are a sensitive person, with a lot of empathy.

-Which is often the kinds of people you find drawn to spiritual practice, to try to find a stable source of self, amongst the ever changing waters of others needs and desires.

The question remains, can they get back out? Can they use that tool for creating effective action, playing a role in the physical world? Or will they be lulled into the peacefulness of non-being, unable to set out and navigate those waters again?

If you never had those type of challenges, then perhaps you cannot understand the need. I guess we could also say sign language is stupid, why don't they just talk? Or hearing devices- why don't they just listen? Hell, lots of people do, without any device at all!



posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 04:08 AM
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Regarding meditation .... It is impossible to stop one's thoughts ... If one did they would be dead ... However there is a misconception regarding meditation ... quiet contemplation is the key in my opinion ... to shut out the babble and interference of the outside world and allow one's own thoughts to flow without censorship ... to be a detached/impartial observer in other words. To listen to one's own inner voice/thoughts

As has been said ... Sleep also is a refresher of the mind
edit on 12-3-2015 by artistpoet because: Typo



posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 07:17 AM
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Spirituality MIGHT work.
This article says it does.

Mindfulness

Quote from the article: "The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) published the results of a ground-breaking study that found that meditation appears to provide as much relief from some anxiety and depression symptoms as antidepressants."

jacygirl



posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 12:36 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm


why does that matter? they barely speak english and will never repay you.

what does that do for you if you save them instead of the billionaire?


I would be able to look at myself in the mirror. I've never known any human being to expect rewards for saving lives. You might be the first.


you mean you have never known any person to act in the interest of other people out of self-interest? it doesnt have to be saving lives. to greater or lesser degree, that is a crucial function of the social machine. but the point is that when we walk that fine line between immorality and white lies, thats when we look inside for guidance. when theres no good way out of a situation without someone getting shafted. when we have to decide which is the lesser evil. im sure you have had to make that choice.



posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: InTheLight

That makes you strong. That makes you good company.


Well, my meditative inward spirituality is a private endeavor, so if you would enjoy observing me or another in quiet, deep meditation then I guess that would make me good company in your opinion.

However...your words:



If you find yourself at a large music festival, or a party, find the spiritual people and be with them. Get close to them. They are, in the universal and particular sense, great lovers. But they are most important the exact times they are not being spiritual, when they get out of and get over themselves, actively engaging in life.


If you find me at a music festival, or a party, don't expect any sort of quite meditative behavior because I will be involved in the gaiety and be animate, however, this may or may not make me good company for you or to an observer; too many variables when dealing with objectivity.

Can I merge the two states? Yes.

Do I want to merge the two states? Not at the present time.



posted on Mar, 12 2015 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

How broadly are you defining spirituality? Are you including all religious beliefs, or aiming at the more "I'm not religious I'm spiritual" approach.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 12:31 AM
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The problems in the world stem from our spiritual detachment from each other, nature, and the world. We have to find purpose within before we find it without.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 09:43 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain


But this thread is not about whether cleaning your teeth with poo is better than toothpaste.
If it were the title of the thread would be 'Cleaning your teeth with poo would work if it was not so stupid'.


In debate there is a technique known as a reductio ad absurdum, which occurs when you take the opponents arguments and apply the very same logic but to different things, taking them to an absurd conclusion. That’s what I did with your logic. It is exactly the same thing as you said—an absurd conclusion.


The thing is if you want to know for sure then you would have to see for yourself. Trusting second-hand knowledge is just eating from the tree of knowledge. Direct conscious contact is eating from the tree of life.


I've never laughed so hard, my friend. Remember? This thread isn’t about trees. It's about sounding as spiritual as possible, perhaps to disguise the illogic underneath.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 09:49 AM
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a reply to: Bluesma

No, no, you explained it well, and I didn't miss any point; it's just that I disagreed with it. And the selling part was only a minor joke.

One of the root demons of anxiety is inactivity and idleness. Any activity or exercise is beneficial, not just for overall health, but also because it requires concentration upon the moment at hand. Meditation does not undermine the inactivity issue, as it is passive exercise, passive participation, and can be done from the comfort of a lazy-boy. It is like a hot bath. A nap. It is a relaxation technique, not unlike reading a book or drinking tea. It offers very little to overall health, and concentration on the moment at hand is forced, not natural. Active participation, perhaps exercise, sports, etc., offers both.

Your son's "spirituality" is not a cause, it is a symptom. Belief in reincarnation too is a symptom, which if he's diligent, he will get over in due time.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 09:52 AM
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a reply to: jacygirl




"The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) published the results of a ground-breaking study that found that meditation appears to provide as much relief from some anxiety and depression symptoms as antidepressants."


I know another one, and I do not even need to quote a Journal of Medicine: a healthy lifestyle. I know another one: exercise. How spiritual of me.

Spiritual or non-spiritual meditation is the exact same thing. Nowhere in these journals and studies does spirituality come into play.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 10:01 AM
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a reply to: bb23108




So LesMis, given your title of this thread is: "Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid" - are you saying that there is hope for spirituality given you say it might work?

As I mentioned earlier, Jesus gave his disciples the admonition to love God with the whole body-mind and one's neighbor as oneself. To actually do this involves real devotion, real love, real self-transcending service, real life practices - not just talk.

His commandments also necessarily require real surrender to God as the foundation for such a life of love.

Also, LesMis, do you think such admonitions by Jesus are spiritual and/or stupid?


Jesus' admonitions were stupid, or at least, a child could have thought of them. However, his actions were brilliant. Disobey the ruling dogmas, even if it means death.

As for spirituality, it could work if it was smart, if it gave up its old ideas and dogmas as worthless, and started from the beginning. It would need to create something believable for people to believe in again, something real.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 10:08 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
As for spirituality, it could work if it was smart, if it gave up its old ideas and dogmas as worthless, and started from the beginning. It would need to create something believable for people to believe in again, something real.

What is real? Is this moment real? Are you real? Do you have to believe a story about this moment? Or is it undeniable?

A thought or idea could be believed or not believed but what is actually happening is what there is - but it is far too simple for the mind. The mind is looking for some thing, some where else. It thinks it might have been in the past and hopes it will be in the future.

Is spirit a thing? Even if you have no idea what it is - does the word 'spirit' sound as though it is a thing? If 'spirit is a thing - it is the whole entire thing - it is one without a second. So if it is one without a second - it must be this that actually is. What else is there?


edit on 13-3-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 10:29 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Bluesma

No, no, you explained it well, and I didn't miss any point; it's just that I disagreed with it. And the selling part was only a minor joke.


OK.




One of the root demons of anxiety is inactivity and idleness. Any activity or exercise is beneficial, not just for overall health, but also because it requires concentration upon the moment at hand. Meditation does not undermine the inactivity issue, as it is passive exercise, passive participation, and can be done from the comfort of a lazy-boy. It is like a hot bath. A nap. It is a relaxation technique, not unlike reading a book or drinking tea. It offers very little to overall health, and concentration on the moment at hand is forced, not natural. Active participation, perhaps exercise, sports, etc., offers both.


I will acknowledge some agreement on that, but not entirely. Anxiety is often caused by not being focused on a goal, so not being able to be decisive. "Just do it" is countered by "do what?"
"Do what my friend counsels me to do? Do what my grandmother counsels me to do? Do what my father counsels me to do? Do what my boss counsels me to do? What do they need from me? What do my clients need from me? What does my boss need from me? What does my mother needs from me?"

(partly why he excells at being an EMT- in the moment, what his clients need is clear and more pressing than all these questions- life and death situations overide all other concerns about others).

The only thing that can clear away those questions and their multitude of answers is to determine- "what do I need from me? "
Which imposes some determination of what is "I" and "me".
One could go ask that of others- and the answers will be, again, conflicting and confusing. For we do not all see others in the same way.




Your son's "spirituality" is not a cause, it is a symptom. Belief in reincarnation too is a symptom, which if he's diligent, he will get over in due time.


I don't agree, because these problems of confusion and trajectory were present before he began looking within and asking himself these questions. Also because part of this spiritual thing he is on includes his "revelation" from looking within, that part of what he needs, from himself, is to take care of his physical needs- like I said he stopped eating badly, and began a daily exercise regimen (running).

Doing these things because he found he has a need and desire for them inside, rather than because someone else told him to, has been essential to this phase of growing up. It had the effect of making him more dynamic in all other parts of his life, of course.

In another analogy, you could similarly say inflammation is a symptom. Except that inflammation is a response by the immune system, to cell injury, to initiate tissue repair.

Too little can mean progressive tissue destruction,
Too much (chronic) can lead to a bunch of other diseases (like rheumatoid arthritis).

It is is not synonymous with infection, nor injury, though they can be observed as simultaneously existing.

In this analogy, inflammation is not a "bad" or undesirable action of the body, except if it goes overboard and becomes chronic. It remains an action that one does not want to repress- the immune system needs to continue with the ability to do this periodically, when it is needed, and tightly regulated by the body.

One would not want to stay chronically inflamed for too long a period of time,

Just as one would not do well to stay introverted and internally focused for days on end!

But it is best that the body do that sometimes when there is cell injury, when the walls are broken.....

(I'm laughing here, this strange idea came to me because of my own present physical condition... but I still think it works in this context)

edit on 13-3-2015 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 11:36 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Jesus' admonitions were stupid, or at least, a child could have thought of them. However, his actions were brilliant. Disobey the ruling dogmas, even if it means death.

As for spirituality, it could work if it was smart, if it gave up its old ideas and dogmas as worthless, and started from the beginning. It would need to create something believable for people to believe in again, something real.


Saying Jesus' admonitions were stupid does not make them so. Care to elaborate?

Jesus' two great commandments are brilliant as they confound the mind because they require complete surrender to reality - which the mind (based on subjectively separating from all objects) cannot inherently do. These commandments cannot possibly be done from the standpoint of the mind, and yet he required them as preparation for his disciples to receive his spiritual initiation into the light above.

Such spiritual initiation requires transcendence of the mind in its usual mode.

The second commandment to love one's neighbor as oneself also points to the inherent unity of reality - our actual non-separation. His commandments were definitely revolutionary for the times as they were truly a non-dual teaching.

Your statement that people need to believe in something is already dooming any such spirituality. Anything new that would work cannot be something that requires belief. Real spirituality must be tacitly obvious from the beginning, not needing to be believed in until some result is obtained.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 11:39 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm


why does that matter? they barely speak english and will never repay you.

what does that do for you if you save them instead of the billionaire?


I would be able to look at myself in the mirror. I've never known any human being to expect rewards for saving lives. You might be the first.


my point was that we look inside for that sort of guidance. save a family because it makes you feel better about yourself, or save the billionaire because you can barely afford to feed your own family. and really, most of life isnt nearly as black and white as all that, which only complicates things. its a "me vs you" kind of world when we barely have enough time to earn the minimal resources that only just keep us afloat. sometimes, we have to choose between our own needs and those of others. choose who to make happy and when, and sometimes who to shut out or let drown. sometimes that person ends up being us, and we dont know why or if we can take it. if only we could all be as cocksure as you present yourself. and for those who arent, there is spirituality. which is only as helpful or harmful as the people who wield it. so perhaps it isnt spirituality thats stupid. its people. i will happily agree that people can be ginormous idiots. i will also cheerfully assert that not ALL people are idiots. just like not all conspiracy forum board members are total whackjobs, even when some most certainly are. but as long as we are in the business of generalizing...
edit on 13-3-2015 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: Bluesma



I will acknowledge some agreement on that, but not entirely. Anxiety is often caused by not being focused on a goal, so not being able to be decisive. "Just do it" is countered by "do what?"
"Do what my friend counsels me to do? Do what my grandmother counsels me to do? Do what my father counsels me to do? Do what my boss counsels me to do? What do they need from me? What do my clients need from me? What does my boss need from me? What does my mother needs from me?"

(partly why he excells at being an EMT- in the moment, what his clients need is clear and more pressing than all these questions- life and death situations overide all other concerns about others).

The only thing that can clear away those questions and their multitude of answers is to determine- "what do I need from me? "
Which imposes some determination of what is "I" and "me".
One could go ask that of others- and the answers will be, again, conflicting and confusing. For we do not all see others in the same way.


I partly agree. Focussing on goals is a mark of confidence in oneself and one's decisions, and is helpful with anxiety. But I do not think simply conforming to spiritual definitions of the self and reality is a mark of confidence, nor a prerequiste to goal-setting. If anything, it brings up even more questions.


I don't agree, because these problems of confusion and trajectory were present before he began looking within and asking himself these questions. Also because part of this spiritual thing he is on includes his "revelation" from looking within, that part of what he needs, from himself, is to take care of his physical needs- like I said he stopped eating badly, and began a daily exercise regimen (running).

Doing these things because he found he has a need and desire for them inside, rather than because someone else told him to, has been essential to this phase of growing up. It had the effect of making him more dynamic in all other parts of his life, of course.

In another analogy, you could similarly say inflammation is a symptom. Except that inflammation is a response by the immune system, to cell injury, to initiate tissue repair.

Too little can mean progressive tissue destruction,
Too much (chronic) can lead to a bunch of other diseases (like rheumatoid arthritis).

It is is not synonymous with infection, nor injury, though they can be observed as simultaneously existing.

In this analogy, inflammation is not a "bad" or undesirable action of the body, except if it goes overboard and becomes chronic. It remains an action that one does not want to repress- the immune system needs to continue with the ability to do this periodically, when it is needed, and tightly regulated by the body.

One would not want to stay chronically inflamed for too long a period of time,

Just as one would not do well to stay introverted and internally focused for days on end!

But it is best that the body do that sometimes when there is cell injury, when the walls are broken.....

(I'm laughing here, this strange idea came to me because of my own present physical condition... but I still think it works in this context)


But "going inside" in accordance with spirituality is about being told what to think and do. The reverence for ancient texts and dogmas I think proves this. This is my problem with the "going inward" metaphor. Thinking and introspection about reality and our relationships with it requires one to think about things outside of himself, the relation to other outter things, not the things within, which if measured, amounts to very little. Recognizing a desire is not enough when that desire is always connected to something else.

I do think your analogy works. Well done.



posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 02:17 PM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain


What is real? Is this moment real? Are you real? Do you have to believe a story about this moment? Or is it undeniable?

A thought or idea could be believed or not believed but what is actually happening is what there is - but it is far too simple for the mind. The mind is looking for some thing, some where else. It thinks it might have been in the past and hopes it will be in the future.

Is spirit a thing? Even if you have no idea what it is - does the word 'spirit' sound as though it is a thing? If 'spirit is a thing - it is the whole entire thing - it is one without a second. So if it is one without a second - it must be this that actually is. What else is there?


Real is an honorific word. Words, however, are not the same as what they are meant to describe. They are artifacts.

The spirit is not a thing, and describes nothing in particular. I think you are attempting to draw a circle around everything and calling it or making it out to be a thing. No; there is no "this" or "whole" that you speak of. It is not one. The words "there is only this" is without warrant. It is you who is looking for something somewhere else, and you'll never find it.

The words you use to describe reality are describing nothing in particular. "This" is the same as "not this", "things" are the same as "nothings", and "happening" is the same as "not happening". They are without content and context. I cannot even ask what you are talking about because it sounds like you do not even care. It's nihilistic, and I imagine your ability to evaluate and react to your environment is becoming more slovenly the longer you refuse to focus or consider particulars. In other words, the first to die in a zombie apocolypse, and I sincerely worry about you, friend. There is a world of things out there—beautiful things, ugly things—but if you are unable to discriminate between one thing or another, life is over. Soon you will be eating gravel and sleeping on a bed of fire ants, unable to discern. If you go only where the river pushes you, eventually you will go over a waterfall.




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