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originally posted by: Entreri06
a reply to: greyer
I'm not a believer, but I think your looking at it wrong.
The Romans used pre existing celebratory dates to celebrate Christian traditions.
The winter and summer solstices have been celebrated for all of human history. The reason for celebrating has changed dozens of times, but not the date.
Even as an atheist I don't see anything crazy about this. It was 400 years before Christianity took hold. By then no one had any clue what calander date Jesus was born or crucified on (assuming he even existed). But the wanted to celebrate them. So they stopped celebrating the pagan holidays on those days and started celebrating Jesus. No one not foolish thinks they were actually the right days. But that doesn't mean your worshipping Jupiter because you have a party on dec. 25th.
originally posted by: BlueMule
So, just to be clear. Your position is that the authors of the NT were NOT inspired/guided/influenced by God. Correct?
originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Cuervo
As far as your points about Paul, I'm conflicted. I think Christians would be far better people if they just threw out everything in the bible that didn't have that nice Jesus fella in it.
I won't argue that some good teachings are attributed to Jesus. Most of which pre-date him, but much is also attributed to him that makes him not a nice fella at all.
If first the word of truth be preached in the city or house, whereby they who receive the faith of the truth may become sons of Peace and sons of God; and those who will not receive it may be convicted as enemies of peace and of God."
Therefore of necessity we offer peace, that if any one is a Son of Peace, our peace may come upon him; but from him who makes himself an enemy of peace, our peace shall return to ourselves. We do not therefore, as you say, propose peace by agreement with the wicked, for indeed we should straightway have given you the right hand; but only in order that, through our discussing quietly and patiently, it might be more easily ascertained by the hearers which is the true speech. But if you differ and disagree with yourself, how shall you stand? He must of necessity fall who is divided in himself; `for every kingdom divided against itself shall not stand.
If you are agreed that everything which is divided falls, it remains that I show, if only you will hear in peace, that our Jesus has divided and dispelled error by teaching truth."'
"Do you not know that peace is the perfection of law? For wars and disputes spring from sins; and where there is no sin, there is peace of soul; but where there is peace, truth is found in disputations, righteousness in works."
A Unique Teacher whose education will save your soul? How is that not 'nice?'
Sometimes the truth is not pretty, but that does not mean to avoid it. Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the very sons of God." Jesus was speaking in an abstract form like a parable when he talks about division. It was all about the truth verse falsehood, the truth will cause a division, even inside of families and households, between falsehood, because the truth will reject falsehood, and falsehood will loathe the truth, and cause this division
Here is an elaboration of the teaching:
Why would you argue that unrighteousness should not be accounted for?
Would you really like a world where people can go around murdering and they are rewarded for it? It seems like some people just loathe anything in the name of good, as if being good is such hard work for them, they sit there and pout about it.
For me righteousness is everything, and it surely is depressing that I face a whole world, over 6 billion people who disagree with me and hate me for it.
No please continue, I like reading things out on context.
I don't understand how does your post have anything to do with pagan origins or are you ranting to throw off the thread?
The pagan origin can be attributed to the Romans owning much of the world during that time and being pagan themselves. I don't think its crazy to think that these holidays were merged to make a Christian holidays.
originally posted by: Klassified
First. I do not need saving.
originally posted by: rnaa
a reply to: greyer
The 'first followers of Jesus' were Jewish. Through and through. Period.
Paul 'invented' (not an accurate term, but descriptive) Christianity because the Jewish elders required that any newly converted Gentiles adopt absolutely the entire covenant. This included not only keeping dietary laws and the sabbath, but also circumcision.
He instituted baptism by water amongst them, in which they might be absolved from all their sins on the invocation of His name, and for the future, following a perfect life, might abide in immortality, being purified not by the blood of beasts, but by the purification of the Wisdom of God.
Paul didn't think he could make many converts that way, so he began his own ministry making up his own rules as he went along.