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Mistakes in Determining the Pagan Origin of Christianity

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posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 01:10 PM
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In the last 200 years, humans began the first opening of historic knowledge and truth over the interpretations of religion. Finally the guarded truth had a chance to become known to the world after being locked up in the dungeons of religious Elite for many centuries, along with some discovery of scrolls in various locations (the main being just miles from the ancient city much talked about since ancient times). But in the 100s of books that have contributed revealing the lost knowledge and researchers bringing to light their findings, it is probable to assume that many are telling us a filter of their wrongful perception.

When people make clear that so many pagan religions had the exact same symbology, practices, and even historical dates of Christianity, they say that these things predated Jesus but are the same as Christianity, which is true, but we must acknowledge that it was the Roman empire with Greek influence that wrote our New Testament.

All the evidence tells us that the original Jewish followers of Jesus rejected those things and did not observe those same beliefs and practices. To say that another pagan religion had the birth date of their 'savior' as December 25th and blood of the covenant how does that have anything to do with the teachings of Jesus? The first Jewish Christians denied that story of the gospel, that is a known history verse an imaginative. What makes them think the Roman empire held importance to telling the truth? After all, religion has provided to be a great source of monetary value and a great manipulation of controlling people.

In the modern Christian world with this respect, nobody knows Jesus. And the people who catch the lies still don't understand the reason for them, who were behind the lies, and who spoke the truth. They discover that all the sacred Jewish scrolls were burned away. They discover that the early Jewish Christians were murdered and tortured for not eating meat sacrificed to idols. How can they be that smart and not find that the religion of the Gentiles is based on falsehood? The exact same is how the poor and meek with follow the teachings of Jesus and the general population will worship sin and falsehood. The world is in opposition to goodness, in opposition to truth, and the Dead Sea Scrolls prove it. They provide an explanation for why a holy man must live in the desert for 3 years, and for why they will be ascetic, celibate, and separate themselves from society.

One author asks "why did not Jesus and James write so many letters to the church as did Paul?" First, they didn't research the few surviving letters that claimed Paul was a lair and enemy to the church, as Paul admits and says he "changed after his vision," a similar vision I might add to the ruthless Constantine, but they believe those murders. They are so ignorant to the fact that the Romans persecuted the first Christians, it is so incredible that an author can research and miss that, any lack of integrity is welcomed by such rebels to meekness, as if they loathe truth, which was also written in the scrolls.

Then they (not the above author mentioned, but in general) base their whole knowledge and belief system of Jesus on the Roman point of view, this is when they mix all the pagan influence in the religion. But if they went back to the lost teachings of Jesus, they would find that Jesus opposed everything pagan, including his blasphemous birth date of December 25th. So it does not make sense that the doctrine of the world can have such a sway on the belief systems of people, to make them refuse and reject what is right, and so zealously claim in all pride that the world is true.

So should I save my life by gaining the world? Or should I lose my life by gaining righteousness? The illusion is that the pride of the world is not life but lust. The lost teachings go into this. Everything action of the world is to feed off the lusts of itself, the world, which makes it feel alive, to have. Everything I do is to give myself away, which makes me feel like I have lost, rendering me selfless. Which one of you would agree that feeling selfless is right? That is the poor blessed in spirit, that is working for the Jesus of history.

edit on 2Sat, 07 Mar 2015 14:33:47 -0600America/Chicago15America/ChicagoSat, 07 Mar 2015 14:33:47 -0600 by greyer because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 01:59 PM
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a reply to: greyer

why should we believe your exercise in futility is anymore exceptional than our own?



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: greyer




why do people correlate that to Jesus or the followers of Jesus?


You have conviniently substituted Christianity with "followers of Jesus" to argue your OP. Who are followers of Jesus...?



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:04 PM
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a reply to: greyer

Great thread.

I think a lot of the defensiveness from Christians concerning their pagan origins stem from their own reluctance to let go of extra-biblical teachings that did, indeed, come from extra-biblical religious beliefs from surrounding pagan cultures. When I tell a Christian of the similarities, I don't say it to dog on their bible; I say it to point out something interesting.

There are two distinct ways of believing in a religion: "doctrinal" and "cultural". Most Americans, Christian or not, are "culturally" Christian in that we celebrate the Christian holidays and have been assimilated in a culture based largely around Christianity. To admit that most of that "culture" is derived from older pagan traditions rubs many the wrong way.

If I were a Christian, I'd take pride in the cultural appropriation the religion takes on. It's fascinating and in no way reflects on the bible, or the "doctrine".

As far as your points about Paul, I'm conflicted. I think Christians would be far better people if they just threw out everything in the bible that didn't have that nice Jesus fella in it.



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:09 PM
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a reply to: greyer

I'm not a believer, but I think your looking at it wrong.

The Romans used pre existing celebratory dates to celebrate Christian traditions.


The winter and summer solstices have been celebrated for all of human history. The reason for celebrating has changed dozens of times, but not the date.


Even as an atheist I don't see anything crazy about this. It was 400 years before Christianity took hold. By then no one had any clue what calander date Jesus was born or crucified on (assuming he even existed). But the wanted to celebrate them. So they stopped celebrating the pagan holidays on those days and started celebrating Jesus. No one not foolish thinks they were actually the right days. But that doesn't mean your worshipping Jupiter because you have a party on dec. 25th.



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:13 PM
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originally posted by: greyer

When people make clear that so many pagan religions had the exact same symbology, practices, and even historical dates of Christianity, they say that these things predated Jesus but are the same as Christianity, which is true, but we must acknowledge that it was the Roman empire with Greek influence that wrote our New Testament.


So, just to be clear. Your position is that the authors of the NT were NOT inspired/guided/influenced by God. Correct?

👣


edit on 888SaturdayuAmerica/ChicagoMaruSaturdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: greyer



It would depend if Christianity can be separated from the institutions of the church.
If so, shouldn't you be persecuting the church and not those pointing at what the church has done? Jesus did.



The dates are a minor issue really as they are seasonal or solar cycle dates that were not invented by the original pagan practices.

When there is a history and heritage to be examined that predates Christianity, it becomes apparent that Christianity (the institution) overlaid itself over more than a few days.... Sacred wells and groves were pagan sites that now have churches built on them that are 7-800 years old.  

With the advent of Christianity, the church tried to eradicate these “pagan” practices but found the veneration of wells very difficult to eradicate 


"no one shall go to trees, or wells, or stones or enclosures, or anywhere else except to God's church, and there make vows or release himself from them." 
The Penitentials of Theodoris. 7th century AD. 

Valentinian II quickly followed this law with a second one, which declared that Pagan temples were to be closed, a law that was viewed as practically outlawing Paganism. 

The temples that were thus closed could be declared "abandoned", as Bishop Theophilus of Alexandria immediately noted in applying for permission to demolish a site and cover it with a Christian church. 

Around 640 AD, St Eligius ordered that: 

"no Christian place lights at the temples or at the stones, or at fountains and springs, or at trees, or at places where three ways meet . . .



www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 7-3-2015 by Wifibrains because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo




If I were a Christian, I'd take pride in the cultural appropriation the religion takes on. It's fascinating and in no way reflects on the bible, or the "doctrine".


It reflects on the story it sells. If bits and pieces were borrowed from earlier texts...with names changed...than the whole thing is a suspect.

Than the God is not Jahve or Elohim or whatever...his name could be entirely different...than you start asking yourself...what else is borrowed...or even invented to suit the need of the time. As we know...today's Bible is a collection of old texts...hand picked and some weeded out...certainly to adhere to need of the Rome.

How could we than be 100 % sure that the story of Jesus is even true...was he even around 0-30 AD ? Was he even a real person ?

If the Bible borrowed events from the past...or borrowed stories...maybe even unsubstantiated myths from the past...how can you be sure it's not just some ancient myth, transformed with new names into a religion we know today ?


If I lie on one account...and you know it...would you trust me to tell you the truth of another ?

I certainly wouldn't....



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:25 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: greyer

why should we believe your exercise in futility is anymore exceptional than our own?


This is a great question. Let's take an example outside of the Dead Sea Scrolls because I know it is hard enough searching those. We have unburied troves of scrolls in a variety of means that were given to scholars to publish. One scholar was given access to some secret Vatican files, and came out with astounding scripture. If you compared all of the difference kinds of scripture in those times I can tell you it is the most profound mix of Teachings of Christ and the Dead Sea Scrolls in one doctrine. It was undeniable, and this is considered a secret that was leaked to an academic.

But in these doctrines from the last 200 years, in your search you will find that they too are written by the "Gentiles." As if no scrolls of Jewish origin survived down the funnels of western religion, although they were worshipping a Jew. So the answer to me was to find the most Jewish scripture. To save you time the gospel of Peter has less heresy than others. The gospel of Thomas is part heresy, then has a list of just teachings and no story. It is intelligent to content that the Romans were given these lists of teachings, and they created the story around it from what was happening at the times, it appears that James and Simon were actually the sons of Jesus and both were also crucified before the war. I went to catholic school and the reality is more much 'real life' than the gospels claim in my study, it does not mean our hope is down, is just means with faith is also the teachings.

But in truth it is the Dead Sea Scrolls. I cannot tell you how I felt when I read from them. I can certainly testify that they are the Word of God.



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:37 PM
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originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly

If the Bible borrowed events from the past...or borrowed stories...maybe even unsubstantiated myths from the past...how can you be sure it's not just some ancient myth, transformed with new names into a religion we know today ?


I guess I sometimes forget that's not an already-accepted stance for fundamentalist Christians. It seems obvious to me that it was influenced from earlier beliefs and most Christians I know accept that glaring truth. It's sort of like evolution in the sense that all but the most literal Christian creationists accept it as fact.

Those are also the same Christians who aren't bigoted and hateful because there is enough evidence to doubt the literal interpretations of the bible. They believe the bible literally enough to understand that their god wants them to love one another but not enough to corrupt their morality by judging others based on evil commandments to kill one another.

I don't personally know one Christian who believes the bible is 100% true and without error.



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 02:58 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo

to me it's quite simple...you can have a bunch of lies which no one can investigate, and insert some true known events in the mix to add to the veracity of said text. It's what we humans do to sell a lie.

It makes a whole lot a difference to a religious person...is the Christian God true...or is it some unknown God. I may even be a believer in God...I'm not settled on that yet...but I don't believe in the Christian God. What I can tell you is...the Christian Church and the Christians themselves are not happy with that. They need it to be their God. The Jahve...the Jesus...and all that. They don't want "some" God. They need it to be Jesus or the whole Christianity and religion thing makes no sense...since it revolves around that symbolism.



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 03:26 PM
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I've been reading a book called Christopaganism by Joyce and River Higginbotham. This has many details that I'd exactly what you're interested in. I hope you look at it.
edit on 7-3-2015 by Iamthatbish because: predict a text totally winning



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 04:46 PM
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originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly

You have conviniently substituted Christianity with "followers of Jesus" to argue your OP. Who are followers of Jesus...?


This is a wise post with great insight. You were able to see that I did indeed substitute those words.

This is great to make known, and way I cannot always use a vague term. This is what separates that gap in the NT between the first Christians and Pauline Christianity.

To close the gap, who do we imagine that Paul was persecuting before he had the vision on the way to Damascus? (Damascus could be a non-literal part of the story, because the word in Hebrew means to eat and drink of the new covenant).

The problem is, that if Paul could not have been persecuting the Christians before his vision, because there was not a sect at that time called 'Christians.' Paul had to be persecuting that actual church. There was only two of the sects who had a church, the Sadducess and Essenes. Who called Paul the Enemy? The pillars of the 'Jewish Catholic Church.' The pillars of the true catholic church were James, Peter, and John. So historically when we look at all the scrolls, Paul was persecuting Peter, and Paul was persecuting James, in which he caused bodily harm to James.

Whenever I say 'followers of Jesus,' they were the men who dropped there things and literally followed Jesus, sat with him and heard his teachings. Peter woke up every night in his sleep and wept at the memory of the words and teachings of Jesus, he missed him greatly. We cannot say the term 'apostle' because that includes Paul, Paul was not a follower of Jesus, but him claiming to follow Jesus was described in the scrolls as leading people astray from the Lord.

We when close the gaps we find that there wasn't much of a gap at all.



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 05:07 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo


As far as your points about Paul, I'm conflicted. I think Christians would be far better people if they just threw out everything in the bible that didn't have that nice Jesus fella in it.

I won't argue that some good teachings are attributed to Jesus. Most of which pre-date him, but much is also attributed to him that makes him not a nice fella at all.



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 05:25 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Cuervo


As far as your points about Paul, I'm conflicted. I think Christians would be far better people if they just threw out everything in the bible that didn't have that nice Jesus fella in it.

I won't argue that some good teachings are attributed to Jesus. Most of which pre-date him, but much is also attributed to him that makes him not a nice fella at all.



Well he's a hell of a lot more cool headed than his dad.

I know what you mean, though. Some of the scriptures I've read that weren't included in the official canon paint him as more of a vengeful badass. Killing a kid for messing up his sand box? Wow.


III. 1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'

IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died.


The Gospel of Thomas makes lil' Jesus look like the girl in Firestarter. He was awesome! He was this powerful witch child and acted like any powerful witch child would. Killing bullies and whatnot.

"Thou shalt not finish thy course"... how is that for a one-liner? Freakin' awesome.
edit on 7-3-2015 by Cuervo because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 07:51 PM
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a reply to: MarioOnTheFly


It reflects on the story it sells. If bits and pieces were borrowed from earlier texts...with names changed...than the whole thing is a suspect.


(Sorry for being tardy, guys)......

Bis and pieces WERE borrowed from earlier bits and pieces - with names changed. That's exactly the point. Somewhere in all of it is, perhaps, a layer of truth. But we NEED all the bits and pieces - it's idiotic to throw out some ideas and revere others.

Syncretism. It's what's for dinner.




posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 07:59 PM
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a reply to: Klassified


much is also attributed to him that makes him not a nice fella at all.

I'd like to hear more on that topic. Please.



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 07:59 PM
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1. Christians intentionally used the pagan holidays and traditions to ease Pagan transition into Christianity.

2. People who transitioned into Christianity took some of their Pagan holidays and traditions with them.

Probably a bit of both of the above.
edit on 3/7/2015 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 09:18 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Klassified


much is also attributed to him that makes him not a nice fella at all.

I'd like to hear more on that topic. Please.


Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.



Matthew10:11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!



Luke 9:4 “Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.



Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Shall I continue?


edit on 3/7/2015 by Klassified because: bold



posted on Mar, 7 2015 @ 09:20 PM
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a reply to: Klassified


Not tonight. My brain is like a sponge, and right now it requires wringing. Out.
Thanks, though - will check it out in the morning.

I've a feeling it's something like this:

right??


edit on 3/7/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



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