Christianity vs scientific advancement.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You throw every thread off with personal bias and rhetoric. You don't debate the topic and when people disagree you insult them.

"If you want an echo chamber singing "PRAISE THE LORD! BOO SCIENCE!" then go to one of any number of religious forums that plague the internet. They'll be happy to accommodate you. You can all wallow in ignorance together and celebrate holding science back."

Proof ^

a reply to: JDmOKI

You don't debate the topic and when people disagree you insult them.

Agree here. However ..no problem by me...with this kind of insulting. I have been insulted by more skillful, experienced, and knowledgeable people than Krazysh0t.



As to science. I am not against science at all. For science has put us in better cars, better homes, better clothes, better medicines, and a plethora of time saving devices in our daily lives.

As a member of a team which installs fuel cells in nuclear reactors..I cannot be against science but I am around the fruits of science every day.

My problem with science is that though it has done all this for us in our lives...it has not made us better people per se. It has made us better consumers but not better people. There is no question in my mind about that.


Which is why I take exception to standard rhetoric of so many unbelievers about science as the new religion..directly or indirectly as they choose to apply it on these and other boards/threads.

I also know that historically ...science is heavily believed and sponsored by some of the most brutal governments and peoples on this earth...always has been and always will be. For they love science. This line of thought is not taught to people here in this country in our public schoos for their independent thinking.
The Soviets and Communist Chinese both were heavy believers in science as they practiced democide on their own people.
They still are heavy believers in science.

In this manner and without speaking of the whole history of men...these kinds of pseudo intellectual threads about science are so predictable...and they are a con job.

I am not into A morality. Which is why I am very dubious about this up and coming field called "Trans Humanism."

I can tell you that those scientists with some moral fabric and conscience are afraid of where Trans Humanism is going.
They are terrified.

And I so do not believe this is the only scientific field where scientists with any kind of conscience and moral fiber are themselves very very concerned.


Thanks,
Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

like this?

originally posted by: orangetom1999
The government is not here to promote a "Secular " form of government..but a representative form of government...Good grief...a Republican government..meaning representative..not as in the phony political party by that name.

I know ALL about why the amendments were written, and nothing you said above justifies why a business can suddenly have a religious belief when no such need was necessary ever before.

They are going to be stunned when they finally figure out where this is going to end. ..the destination...

You mean death? That's the only destination I'm aware of. If you mean hell, then you are truly lost in thinking that striving for social equality is a damnable offense in god's eyes. That is the most anti-Christian thing I can think of.

Glad to see that you recognize these two governments involved and in the last 100 years, in the times of science..of logic and reason...scientific logical reasonable men running things. The problem is that few other governments can match this level of democide...

Nice to see you recognize my intelligence for once instead of the condescending fake intellectual superiority you've been talking to me so far with.

The reason Russia and China had those high number is because of their populations. You DO know that 7 of the top 10 wars with the highest death tolls all featured China or China was a participant in them right? China isn't historically known for treating its citizens well. Russia really hasn't been known for this either (that's why the Russian Revolution happened in the first place). Not to mention, population counts are higher in modern times than in the past. Your comparison is weak.

As to Secular governments being better than theocratic ones...again..you have a serious historical problem. Most of the Secular/Socialist type governments across this globe today are going broke/bankrupt. Those who are not going broke and bankrupt are living of the teat of other governments and peoples and will eventually drive them also into broke and bankrupt.

No they aren't... Europe (where many of those countries are) is at an all time high economically. Yes, there are a few countries suffering, but Germany, England, France, and others are all doing great. The Nordic countries (literal Socialist paradises) are doing AMAZING economically. Japan is another country on that list of great secular countries that is doing outstanding. You are just completely wrong here. You pulled these claims out of your ass.

Problem again with your argument...Russia remained the same...dead inert...floundering economies until the wall fell and the West....Judeo/Christian Western economies with technologies and capabilities entered and bailed them out.
Soviet Russia would have gone under in the 1960s and 1970s had we not bailed them out with massive wheat exports.
A super power cannot manage a wheat crop????
Same with Communist China. As we too go this route by Social Justice Warriors..we too will flounder and government will make a bigger mess of it by more rules, laws, and regulations. Our economy will follow suit..dead and inert. To those who can see...it is already happening.

Communism failed in those two countries because it was economically unviable. The socialism that is practiced in modern European countries mixes wealth redistribution with capitalism to sustain the country. You clearly don't know what you are talking about here.

For it is obvious we have a non representative government.

This is bullcrap. While many politicians don't listen to everything the people want, we DO make a difference in policy. Remember when Obama was all gung-ho to go into Syria and then didn't? Well that was because the American people stood up and said no. Obama had no reason to listen the American people either. He was already in his second term and can't be reelected so no pressure there, but he did anyways.

I don't waste my time with hate...it takes to much work. Which is why I so disprove of the template you and others of your ilk are want to use/misuse on people who cannot think their way out of it and are easily intimidated or bullied into silence and guilt by its use/misuse by folks like you.
It does not work on me. I've seen it done to many times. It shows powerlessness..not power and authority. Not morality. It smacks of the cheap political technique today of creating bad guys for political reasons. And your cause celeb in the social arena must needs create bad guys in the mind of so many people untutored in the technique.

Too much fluff in the above paragraphs. You need to learn how to be more precise with what you say so you don't keep breaking the word limit for your posts.

Good grief...this is not difficult..at all. All you have to do is look at our economy since the SJW's have moved into office with their blame game, labeling, and even distorting of history. How is the economy doing??
Also how are other socialist economies doing.

The economy is at an all time high. Other socialist country economies are at an all time high.
List of countries by GDP

Of the top 10 countries in that list, 7 of them are Socialist. Your words and unnecessarily long paragraphs fail you in the face of actual evidence.

originally posted by: orangetom1999
Communism and socialism are the ultimate expression of logical reasonable atheistic men ..scientific men run amok. This is carefully couched or hidden today under the concept or dogma of Social Justice.

It is not about private property...or privacy..or ability to labor or contract for labor..but about wealth redistribution...for social justice.

Under this system it is not difficult to see that equality or social justice will be found at the poverty level..which is exactly where most socialist governments today are headed politically, socially, and economically...towards collapse.
What does freedom and liberty mean if you are economically bankrupt??

None of this is history. It is ALL right wing fear rhetoric about Socialism though.

LOL LOL LOL LOL...Wow!! Ok..native americans..LOL LOL LOL. What did they do economically and socially ..on a world wide scale..did they export their know how to other countries???

They did plenty. For one trade has been established throughout the Americas LONG before the Europeans got there. It is believed that links may have been established to Ancient Egypt from the Americas. Your overuse of the "lol" acronym shows how little you actually know about the Natives and their cultures. You are stuck in the old paradigm that they were undeveloped savages. Maybe if you spent some time actually RESEARCHING history instead of claiming you know about it, you'd discover these things.

What I know of that they exported..to other nations .... coc aine.

Cocaine was found in some of the tombs of Ancient Egyptians. And it is known that Cocaine only comes from what is historically called the new world.

Again...what are you thinking here?? Is this to deep for you?? Come on Krazysh0t..you are using a non sequitur here while trying to show that I am doing this.

I am not trying to insult the Native Americans here. Great that it worked for them..but they were not a world power able to export much on the world scale...or create much.

Are you daft? Establishing trade routes from North America all the way to the bottom of South America is no different than establishing trade routes between Europe and Africa or Europe and Asia. There is plenty of evidence of multi-continent trade in the Americas.

Please try some thinking..not emoting with your cause celebs.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Says the guy putting 7 "LOLS" (in caps) in response to one of my points... IRONY!

It's funny. You pretend like you have intellectual superiority over me, but you haven't presented an intelligent argument. It is disjointed, full of emotion, overfilled with useless filler content, doesn't say what it claims to say and prove, confuses what is and isn't history, and has no supporting evidence for any of its claims. How you can think you know more than me on these topics is baffling. Here's a thought? Instead of being so condescending towards me, you treat me as an intellectual equal and we have an actual respectful debate?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I know ALL about why the amendments were written, and nothing you said above justifies why a business can suddenly have a religious belief when no such need was necessary ever before.

Krazysh0t,

Wow...good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry to be so harsh on you but you have really earned it...seriously. You, in your posts, are a standard issue educated simpleton and I am being generous. Look at your statement up here. It has all the earmarks of a simpleton using education to obfuscate an ideology or dogma and lose the reality of a thing for political purposes and zoom ahead like someone with an after burning jet engine up their backside..to get no where even faster.

And you have done this over and over and over in your postings and think on one will notice what you do.

Look at your post above...You have left out one important facet ...of human reasoning.

Businesses are made up of people. You left that out. And people have religious beliefs and want to live by them.
What are you possibly thinking here?? I keep coming back to that. In your haste to create Xerox stamped out machine thinking instead of individuality and then run down the road with it creating bad guys along the way...you must needs pigeonhole people into your default settings and then zooooommmm on down the road in afterburner mode...and think no one sees what you are doing.


This is also what I was alluding to when I told you and the readers out here that your dogma must needs create bad guys to justify yourself and your beliefs and think no one sees what you do.

Businesses are made up of people.... You have to be educated to become that dumb that you miss out on this concept and then try doing what you are doing here. Seriously. And this is exactly what much of public education does today..turn people into emotional robots without teaching them to think through a thing. You are prime evidence of this lack of thinking. Proof that evolution is not happening.

Sorry but someone needs to tell you that. No cover charge.

You mean death? That's the only destination I'm aware of. If you mean hell, then you are truly lost in thinking that striving for social equality is a damnable offense in god's eyes. That is the most anti-Christian thing I can think of.

I mean both...before these "experts" are done..it will be death and hell both ..right here on earth...daily. This will be the best that illuminated, educated, logical, reasonable men can do.

Nice to see you recognize my intelligence for once instead of the condescending fake intellectual superiority you've been talking to me so far with.

The reason Russia and China had those high number is because of their populations. You DO know that 7 of the top 10 wars with the highest death tolls all featured China or China was a participant in them right? China isn't historically known for treating its citizens well. Russia really hasn't been known for this either (that's why the Russian Revolution happened in the first place). Not to mention, population counts are higher in modern times than in the past. Your comparison is weak.

Wow!! Are you serious here. I was discussing a dogma or practice by governments called Democide.

Death by ones own government

What are you thinking posting that kind of stuff for which I quoted above. The author of Democide does not describe death in wars..but in addition to wars.

Since when or where does population numbers justify any government turning on their own people like I have been describing. What are you trying to justify once again by your lack of logic and reason???
Your last statement about population counts being higher today than in yesteryears is textbook again of public education non standards. Either life is valuable or life is expendable or disposable for political reasons..ie..power.

What are you trying to justify in your statements here??? Democide?? Based on population levels?? I do not even think you realize what you are posting here. What you are posting as a pattern of thought comes across as very very amoral.

Without morals...amoral.

You are seriously decompensating here. Your points are coming apart at the seams.

No they aren't... Europe (where many of those countries are) is at an all time high economically. Yes, there are a few countries suffering, but Germany, England, France, and others are all doing great. The Nordic countries (literal Socialist paradises) are doing AMAZING economically. Japan is another country on that list of great secular countries that is doing outstanding. You are just completely wrong here. You pulled these claims out of your ass.

Germany is supporting Greece on their teat. If Germany goes under ..most of Europe will follow. Russia is in economic trouble as well. France is not doing that well..having to support so many immigrants on their teat...so too with England ...they are all going into the ditch but hiding this from their people. Rising prices are evidence of this as is also happening here in America. This is called Inflation but the correct name for it historically is depreciation..loss of purchasing power of the monies. This is happening all across Europe with their money systems. It happened in Russia as well. It is happening here in America.

Communism failed in those two countries because it was economically unviable. The socialism that is practiced in modern European countries mixes wealth redistribution with capitalism to sustain the country. You clearly don't know what you are talking about here.

Taxation is work that people do for which they get no goods or services. I don't care what they teach you in public schools...it is work that a person does for which they get no goods or services.

Inflation is work you do for which you get no goods or services. You pay more today for the thing which costs less yesterday. Same thing as a tax. Inflation is disguised taxation. You can find this confirmed in Money in Colonial New England by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

You can also find more about inflation in "The Economic Consequences of the Peace Circa 1919 by John Maynard Keynes.

Nations in Europe and here in America are doing Wealth Redistribution by printing money...or borrowing on the public purse/credit..thus causing inflation. They hide this by taxing the people more..raising taxes.

People suffer two taxes...directly by removing it from their paychecks so that they cannot outbid government give aways...for votes..or by inflation... work they do for which they get no goods or services. Two Taxes.

Most people do not realize this and government will certainly never teach this to people but people are pissed off. They know their money does not go far and getting less and less in its purchasing power. They do not realize they are paying two taxes here and no one in power wants them to ever know this ..both political parties want people dumb about this.
Taxes have to be raised to keep people from outspending the government excesses. To hide what the government is stealing out of the economy by deficit spending or money printing.

People are losing their jobs as well as inflation makes moving ones business more desirable or shutting it down.

Continued...

en.wikipedia.org...

"Lenin is said to have declared that the best way to destroy the Capitalist System was to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some... Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."

"The inflationism of the currency systems of Europe has proceeded to extraordinary lengths. The various belligerent Governments, unable, or too timid or too short-sighted to secure from loans or taxes the resources they required, have printed notes for the balance."

"The presumption of a spurious value for the currency, by the force of law expressed in the regulation of prices, contains in itself, however, the seeds of final economic decay, and soon dries up the sources of ultimate supply. If a man is compelled to exchange the fruits of his labors for paper which, as experience soon teaches him, he cannot use to purchase what he requires at a price comparable to that which he has received for his own products, he will keep his produce for himself, dispose of it to his friends and neighbors as a favor, or relax his efforts in producing it. A system of compelling the exchange of commodities at what is not their real relative value not only relaxes production, but leads finally to the waste and inefficiency of barter."

Though it has been many years ago..I checked this book out of the public library and it was an eye opener in places.

I also combined what was in this book about inflation/depreciation...with what the Federal Reserve Bank had to say in its publications for public distribution. When you are able to connect the dots...it is amazing what one learns.

Sources of supply dried up in Soviet Russia..which is why when the iron curtain fell...the store shelves were mostly empty ..except where the insiders shopped in special stores...ie...Royalty. But thanks to John Maynard Keynes and economists here stateside..I knew this long before the curtain fell.

All I have to do to know about a super power is not listen to leadership...but go to my local store to see who and where from the goods and services come. Who has the ability to ship, transship, and manufacture...and also finance private industries building these goods. It is not the Russians..even today.

Remember when Obama was all gung-ho to go into Syria and then didn't? Well that was because the American people stood up and said no. Obama had no reason to listen the American people either. He was already in his second term and can't be reelected so no pressure there, but he did anyways.

This government along with other western governments is fighting a proxy war in the middle east..getting other nations to fight for them and thus remove the resources from the marketplace...in effect putting the nations into storage..just as was done in Vietnam.

We are arming people who do not like us to fight against Syria for us..and thus take the resources there and in other nations in the middle east ..off the market.
Oil and natural gas has been found both on and off shore from Libya to Syria..and these are the nations which have been destabilized by Western nations.

We have a long history of creating our own enemies and having them turn on us later. This will never be taught to the American People...in lieu of todays television and movie education...ie...public education We shed our finest blood in wars for which we have created our own enemies. But these businesses who contributed to this including banks and insurance companies are never on trial when the wars are over. Politics creates its own bad guys to blame as you are want to do here.

In the last 30 years a number of speakers and authors have begun writing about this trend and the thinking needed to detect this pattern. They have not been well received by political insiders and the power structure and many of them have gone to jail for exposing thus.

None of this is history. It is ALL right wing fear rhetoric about Socialism though.

Did you not just admit..that the higher forms of government in the world support capitalism in order to wealth redistribute??? Social Justice???

Wealth Redistribution is about taking from one people who earn, labor, and RISK for it and give it to someone else..either by inflationary spending or direct taxation or both. Either way you take private property from someone who RISKS for it by laboring and then give it to someone else who does not labor. I Know this because In some places people who work and labor for their monies cannot afford what people with these plastic welfare cards can afford. I can see this often in the stores. One need not be genius to see this taking place.

Now to get cheaper labor..we are going to put illegals on the teat...who have not put into the system and burden the system even more. But at the same time we are going to bail out Mexico by getting rid of a lot of their unemployment problem/Social injustice problem and putting it on the backs of the American People. This protects/stabilizes the businesses who set up shop in Mexico after the runaway inflation of the late 1970s by providing economic stability ..getting rid of excess population...while bringing hard currency back to Mexico. We are bailing out Mexico and guaranteeing a voting block here at the same time.

continued...

They did plenty. For one trade has been established throughout the Americas LONG before the Europeans got there.

I first learned of this from a fisherman who also had an interesting hobby of collecting Indian artifacts in Coastal North Carolina. This man was an encyclopedia of knowledge of Indian History. It was he who told me that the Indians had trade routes up and down from Canada into Central and even South America as well as out west.

There are also stories of out West of the USA that the Chinese landed here before this country was formed.

Nonetheless...there is problems with your position. One of the marks of great civilizations is that they had a written language. Otherwise what you get is lore...legends..etc. Outside of certain Archeology..you do not see great civilizations marked in trade or records of contact with most of Western American Indians. You have records of Western men meeting the South American Indians and the Central American Civilizations...but not much when they moved into North America.

This too is not taught to most people in lieu of today creating bad guys necessary for political leverage over people who cannot think through a thing.

Nonetheless...the problem with Western Indians is that they did not produce the products/civilization which made peoples lives better and more productive. Just like the Soviet Russians and others. You see..?? Once you know this fingerprint or index...you will catch it every time. You will not be fooled by such talk trying to pass for the intellectual high ground. This is what is missing from your posts on the American Indians. It is missing from our pubic educations as well..it is also missing from politics...in lieu of the blame game and guilt manipulations. Again..once you see this for yourself...You will catch it every time. Remember...by your own admission ..the Indians were socialists.

But I am just talking out my backside here.

It's funny. You pretend like you have intellectual superiority over me, but you haven't presented an intelligent argument. It is disjointed, full of emotion, overfilled with useless filler content, doesn't say what it claims to say and prove, confuses what is and isn't history, and has no supporting evidence for any of its claims. How you can think you know more than me on these topics is baffling. Here's a thought? Instead of being so condescending towards me, you treat me as an intellectual equal and we have an actual respectful debate?

I am not debating here for intellectual superiority. Good Grief. I could care less about such things. How about some Truth .not Drama. This is not Jerry Springer or whoever replaced him today.

I don't know much about a lot of things but I can tell nonsense when I see it. Emotion as well. And I can see certain things through the prism of history.



Thanks for your posts,
Orangetom

originally posted by: orangetom1999
a reply to: Krazysh0t


Sorry but someone needs to tell you that. No cover charge.

Holy crap. Blah blah blah blah. AGAIN with all the words that say nothing. I had to delete most of it because I really don't care what you think about my intelligence and you are doing me no favors by offering your opinion. Keep it to yourself.

No CRAP businesses are made up of people, but that doesn't mean that everyone in the business shares the same religious beliefs. It is insulting to say that the religious beliefs of the owners speaks for the religious beliefs of the employees.

I mean both...before these "experts" are done..it will be death and hell both ..right here on earth...daily. This will be the best that illuminated, educated, logical, reasonable men can do.

Ya sure. You keep telling yourself that. Hell is just a medieval bedtime story used to scare medieval peasant children. It doesn't exist.

Since when or where does population numbers justify any government turning on their own people like I have been describing. What are you trying to justify once again by your lack of logic and reason???
Your last statement about population counts being higher today than in yesteryears is textbook again of public education non standards. Either life is valuable or life is expendable or disposable for political reasons..ie..power.

Do you always twist my words around? I don't think you've understood a single word I've said. You keep going on about my emotions but you waste 3/4ths of your post count remarking in surprise about my opinion. It's ridiculous.

What are you trying to justify in your statements here??? Democide?? Based on population levels?? I do not even think you realize what you are posting here. What you are posting as a pattern of thought comes across as very very amoral.

Without morals...amoral.

The fact that you somehow think I'm justifying or defending democide just shows that you have no desire to understand what I'm saying. Choosing to just insult me over and over again. It's getting tedious.

Germany is supporting Greece on their teat. If Germany goes under ..most of Europe will follow. Russia is in economic trouble as well. France is not doing that well..having to support so many immigrants on their teat...so too with England ...they are all going into the ditch but hiding this from their people. Rising prices are evidence of this as is also happening here in America. This is called Inflation but the correct name for it historically is depreciation..loss of purchasing power of the monies. This is happening all across Europe with their money systems. It happened in Russia as well. It is happening here in America.

Last I checked, I posted evidence saying you were wrong. YOU on the other hand just hand wave that data away and interject your own reality minus any evidence. I think it is safe to say who is wrong and who it right. But keep letting yourself believe the above. You are doing wonders for you cause.

Taxation is work that people do for which they get no goods or services. I don't care what they teach you in public schools...it is work that a person does for which they get no goods or services.

Inflation is work you do for which you get no goods or services. You pay more today for the thing which costs less yesterday. Same thing as a tax. Inflation is disguised taxation. You can find this confirmed in Money in Colonial New England by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

You can also find more about inflation in "The Economic Consequences of the Peace Circa 1919 by John Maynard Keynes.

Great. I know all this already. I'm not giving you my opinion on if I like Socialism here. I am JUST giving you the facts, which you seem hell bent on denying.

BTW: I'm tired of cutting through your walls of text full of useless fluff, so I'm just cutting my response to you short here. I don't usually tl:dr people, but with you I'm making an exception. You need to learn how to get your message across succinctly. You also need to learn some respect. Besides you are getting hung up on political ideology and all sorts of other off topic conversations. You need to come back to the topic of Christianity vs scientific advancement. For instance, your run around posts with tons of words that say nothing is a GREAT example of a Christian impeding intellectual thought while offering nothing in return. Most of your post is just you disagreeing, and literally none of it includes evidence of your claims. Talking to you has been a great case study in Christian arguing processes. Ciao.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Holy crap. Blah blah blah blah. AGAIN with all the words that say nothing. I had to delete most of it because I really don't care what you think about my intelligence and you are doing me no favors by offering your opinion. Keep it to yourself.

Blame Us...

But whatever you do never claim part of the problem or attempt any repairs yourself: this requires a qualified service technician.


Science fascination
Sinful believers
Species in mutation
Sordid disorders

Our leaders missed the point
Forced to dominate and destroy
To get what people want
Cultural coded society

Secret monster machines
Evolve in our spirits
Deeper in mind, digging
To find the ultimate

Deathwatch entertainment
Predictable near-misses
Is this what people want?
One blind reflex society

On the planet, blame us,
In my time, we didn't care enough

New world lies convention
High risk policies
One speech on total power
Leading to suicide

Our leaders missed the point
Forced to dominate and destroy
It's not what people want
It's not what's called society

On the planet, blame us
In my time
In my time
We didn't care enough.

a reply to: AinElohim

You say I'm part of the problem then proceed to post some song that has nothing to do with the OP. I'M not the topic of conversation in this thread. Christianity vs science is, and you discussed nothing in your post for that.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Heavy Metal is about the only intellectually stimulating content you are going to get out of the music industry in this day and age.

That is unless one actually like Bad Romances of Lady Gaga, or smakin them hoes and shooting them police of Ice Cube's?

the song is relevant to the discussion, it address both points of view and although not to "deep" in this instance... it attempts to unite the two schools of thought.

lyrics are posted...

originally posted by: AinElohim
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Heavy Metal is about the only intellectually stimulating content you are going to get out of the music industry in this day and age.

No it isn't. There is plenty of intellectually stimulating content from all genres of music. It isn't on the radio though.

That is unless one actually like Bad Romances of Lady Gaga, or smakin them hoes and shooting them police of Ice Cube's?

The music industry isn't just Heavy Metal, R&B, and Rap. There are MANY MANY MANY genres of music out there. They evolved out of each other to continually fill niches of listeners (kind of like evolutionary theory). If you believe your above statements to be true then you know VERY little about the music industry.

It's nice that you are passionate about Heavy Metal, but don't denounce genres that you don't even know about or have listened to in your zeal for your brand of music. Yes, pop music is annoyingly bad, but there is more music being produced out there than JUST pop music. I don't even listen to the radio anymore. I have something like 120 gigs of music from all sorts of genres and most of it you'd never hear on the radio.

You denounce Ice Cube, so I take you don't like rap? Well there ARE rap artists who write some pretty moving and thoughtful stuff. Eminem comes to mind. The man is a modern day poet. So just because you may not like the genre also doesn't mean that good stuff doesn't come out. I don't like Dubstep, but I recognize that there are some good Dubstep artists out there.

the song is relevant to the discussion, it address both points of view and although not to "deep" in this instance... it attempts to unite the two schools of thought.

lyrics are posted...

Those lyrics look pretty political to me and the conversation about science and spirituality is only to frame metaphors about the destructive tendencies of our leaders. You might as well have just posted War Pigs. It's the same message.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I really don't care what you think about my intelligence and you are doing me no favors by offering your opinion. Keep it to yourself.

LOL LOL LOL...Wow!! Textbook...ok..here we go..

It's funny. You pretend like you have intellectual superiority over me, but you haven't presented an intelligent argument.

Nice to see you recognize my intelligence for once instead of the condescending fake intellectual superiority you've been talking to me so far with.

But we are taking away from the debate points here on this thread with this tack.

No CRAP businesses are made up of people, but that doesn't mean that everyone in the business shares the same religious beliefs. It is insulting to say that the religious beliefs of the owners speaks for the religious beliefs of the employees.

Glad you recognize that businesses are made up of people. You did not make that point in your previous posts. It is insulting to a person who is a business owner who pays for things ..that they must cater to the individual religious beliefs of their employers at the expense of their beliefs while the business owners pay...are held hostage to this "Im a Victim Dictum. '

I don't have a problem with someone trying to live their religious beliefs as long as they don't harm others and pay themselves for their religious beliefs..not default it over to others to pay...like government getting others to pay while they get the votes on the public purse and it costs them nothing..while they sell the people down the drain....under the phony guise of secularism. Government is teaching and preaching a religion here...The State is god. Back to divine right of kings. Absolute power.

Ya sure. You keep telling yourself that. Hell is just a medieval bedtime story used to scare medieval peasant children. It doesn't exist.

This is a very interesting point by a person who seems to pride themselves on their intellect. Hell is what became of the Soviet Union..and Communist China..and their treatment of their people.

It is what England is becoming ..what is coming to Europe...as well and eventually America under intellect..illumination...wise men running things. You can tell this by people becoming afraid to speak their minds..and in schools of all places. The very place where traditionally free thought and ideas were to be exchanged have now become places of Political Correctness and Censorship for individual thinking..not free expression of Ideas.

Fear...this is the Marxist Socialist dogma at work. And it leads to the road to Hell...here on this earth. Thinking people know this and can connect the dots.

Under the guise of wise men...educated, illuminated, enlightened wise men running things..you always wind up with hell on this earth. England rapidly went that direction when gin was discovered. Russia with their vodka as well. Want to know what they did with our wheat..they drank it. Vodka was possibly the only commodity available in Soviet Russia in great supply....ironic. They became a nation of drunks in the Workers Utopia. And our own media carefully covered and hid this truth from Americans while cowering us with fear tactics...our leadership too.

I remember seeing an interview with a Vietnamese woman who fought against the Americans during the war and she was asked in one of these 60 Minutes type of interviews if she had known what was to become of Vietnam after the war was over...would she have fought in the war as she did...her answer was no.

To bad Americans cannot seem to figure this out while we get ready for the next war. Our veterans are finding out about hell..when they cannot get treatment while those on the public purse get treatment for votes.
This dichotomy is a definition of hell Krazysh0t. Are you not able to figure out this pattern by your intellect.

Do you always twist my words around? I don't think you've understood a single word I've said. You keep going on about my emotions but you waste 3/4ths of your post count remarking in surprise about my opinion. It's ridiculous.

It is indeed ridiculous..you are correct.
I don't have to twist your words around. In that debate point I made was about " the morality of Democide" or death by ones own government and you tried to post it as a numbers game and about war...here..your quote.

The reason Russia and China had those high number is because of their populations. You DO know that 7 of the top 10 wars with the highest death tolls all featured China or China was a participant in them right? China isn't historically known for treating its citizens well. Russia really hasn't been known for this either (that's why the Russian Revolution happened in the first place). Not to mention, population counts are higher in modern times than in the past. Your comparison is weak.

Remember what I also stated about...Democide...this is all in addition to wars..not a result of wars..but in addition to wars.
You try to turn it into a numbers game during wars or as a result of wars and think no one will notice it. You are demonstrating the very amorality of which I speak and by the very bait and switch tactics of which I speak. The Amorality of intelligent, educated, intellectual wise men.

You insert a debate point not even covered in the topic of democide...the numbers on democide are in addition to war and conflict...not a result of them..but separate.

This is exactly the bait and switch tactic so often used in gun control debates...they insert hunting ..when the Amendment says nothing about hunting at all. They think no one notices it. The pattern here...is similar. This is why pattern recognition is so often frowned upon in these debates. People might actually start thinking for themselves instead of running dogma..programming ..someone else's program.

The fact that you somehow think I'm justifying or defending democide just shows that you have no desire to understand what I'm saying. Choosing to just insult me over and over again. It's getting tedious.

You are justifying an intelligence and illumination which is false. I do not need to insult you ...I just point out the problem with your thinking. You are doing a fine job of insulting the readers here once they know the pattern of what is going on and trying to pass for intelligence and illumination today..education.

If you find it insulting ...by your very education ..you can deal with it. I am simply saying that in the Light of History your positions do not hold up. They make good socialist dogma..but do not stand the test of time unless someone tries to narrow down the history by avoiding most of it or avoiding the pattern recognition going on out here and for which is intended that we never see or know what is going on...often right in front of us.


continued...

continued...

Last I checked, I posted evidence saying you were wrong. YOU on the other hand just hand wave that data away and interject your own reality minus any evidence. I think it is safe to say who is wrong and who it right. But keep letting yourself believe the above. You are doing wonders for you cause.

Wow!! When one goes to colleges and a teacher want's to be frank about economic theory and statistics..data...they will teach you this facet..

"There are big lies ..there are little lies ..and then there are statistics."

To my limited knowledge there has never been a time in history where so many nations and their banking industries have been in so much trouble. This means that their economies are also in trouble. Some will last longer than others because of the status of their industries verses their debt load.

No rocket material needed here.

Great. I know all this already. I'm not giving you my opinion on if I like Socialism here. I am JUST giving you the facts, which you seem hell bent on denying.

BTW: I'm tired of cutting through your walls of text full of useless fluff, so I'm just cutting my response to you short here.

You need not bother with whether you like socialism or not...I already knew this question and answer before we started posting...by pattern recognition. No problem. Your facts are skewed by your preference of science as a religion or replacement for religion and peoples beliefs. This too I already knew...as well as in the postings of others.

There is a serious problem with your posting and methods as well as other members here in threads such as this one.

And that is the Word/Bible is not written as a scientific treatise. Yet you and others often try to make this comparison...as if no one notices or thinks this through.

I notice it and think it through.


The Bible is about Faith..cover to cover...not science.

Hence the title of this thread is bogus..and designed ..like so much of politics today...to cause division....not unity or clear thinking.

This is the problem and pattern with your thinking as well as the thinking and self promotion which follows this pattern.

No problem with me if you cut your posts short. But you are supposed to be defaulting me on the short end...grabbing me by my emotions and putting me on the puppet strings...by logic..by reason..by intelligence....by science...by worldly methods of sophistication....cutting me short...leaving me speechless.

So in case you missed it in your haste to show your intelligence and scientific prowess...I will clue you in about science and Christians...concerning a post/posts some pages back.




An A2W..and A4W and an S9G is the terminology of a nuclear power plant fueled by Uranium 235. This can be found on Wiki under those names or terms.

People who work in this field must have some basic disciplines and not be easily emoted verses sticking to the training and it's disciplines. This does not make me or those trained in this better than others..certainly not. It means we are not that easily emoted...or put on a string.
It also means we are not against science.

I keep trying to tell you that there is something wrong with your thinking and the thinking of others in the premise of this thread.

I live about a mile from the NASA Langley Research Center. Lots of moon rocks to be found in this town..lots of scientist/engineer types as well...many of them Christians.

As I stated ..no problem by me if you cut this short.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

a reply to: stosh64

I second that !
If it was a well written post with some dates/facts showing how society stood still due to religion it might have made for a good discussion, but alas no, just more same old same old hey.

originally posted by: orangetom1999
Glad you recognize that businesses are made up of people. You did not make that point in your previous posts. It is insulting to a person who is a business owner who pays for things ..that they must cater to the individual religious beliefs of their employers at the expense of their beliefs while the business owners pay...are held hostage to this "Im a Victim Dictum. '

No it isn't. They aren't using those products or services so their input shouldn't be necessary. Hobby Lobby, for instance has suppliers in China that employ slave labor. Clearly that's not an issue for them.

This is a very interesting point by a person who seems to pride themselves on their intellect. Hell is what became of the Soviet Union..and Communist China..and their treatment of their people.

It is what England is becoming ..what is coming to Europe...as well and eventually America under intellect..illumination...wise men running things. You can tell this by people becoming afraid to speak their minds..and in schools of all places. The very place where traditionally free thought and ideas were to be exchanged have now become places of Political Correctness and Censorship for individual thinking..not free expression of Ideas.

Oh cool a nice fearmongering piece.

To bad Americans cannot seem to figure this out while we get ready for the next war. Our veterans are finding out about hell..when they cannot get treatment while those on the public purse get treatment for votes.
This dichotomy is a definition of hell Krazysh0t. Are you not able to figure out this pattern by your intellect.

I dunno, Europe seems to be fine despite everything you are crying about. Though I'm not the one itching for war. I WANT to stay out of the Middle East. It's Christians and the right who are itching to pick another fight with Islam terrorists, not me.

You are justifying an intelligence and illumination which is false. I do not need to insult you ...I just point out the problem with your thinking. You are doing a fine job of insulting the readers here once they know the pattern of what is going on and trying to pass for intelligence and illumination today..education.

I know you don't NEED to insult me, but you are doing it anyways. Speaking of insulting the readers, you are still off topic. None of this has to do with science or Christianity. Socialism is a political discussion, NOT a Christian or science discussion. The only reason I brought up Europe earlier was to contrast its largely atheist population to Christian populations to show that those countries are faring better.

Neither the USSR nor Communist China are relevant to today's world since neither of them exist as they did when they were committing genocide against its own people. Should I bring up Nazi Germany to show a Christian entity committing genocide against its own people? Because I certainly can. Actually, I can pick out many more theocracies that have done it. Your two shining examples of atheists behaving badly are just two examples. On my side, I have a list that spans back throughout the ages of this. I think you are outnumbered here.

originally posted by: orangetom1999
To my limited knowledge there has never been a time in history where so many nations and their banking industries have been in so much trouble. This means that their economies are also in trouble. Some will last longer than others because of the status of their industries verses their debt load.

Then you know little of history. This point in history is nothing new for the world.

And that is the Word/Bible is not written as a scientific treatise. Yet you and others often try to make this comparison...as if no one notices or thinks this through.

I notice it and think it through.

Yea, I've heard this before too. You aren't telling me anything I haven't heard here. It is a standard copout that Christians try to rebut with when they have failed their argument. You and I both know that if science truly aligned with the bible, your camp would be singing it from the rooftops, but because it doesn't we get this stupid analysis.

The Bible is about Faith..cover to cover...not science.

All faith is, is belief without evidence. But here's the thing, science says that the bible is wrong. It's not like you don't have evidence for your beliefs, you have evidence that competes against your belief.

No problem with me if you cut your posts short. But you are supposed to be defaulting me on the short end...grabbing me by my emotions and putting me on the puppet strings...by logic..by reason..by intelligence....by science...by worldly methods of sophistication....cutting me short...leaving me speechless.

I am? I'm just stating my opinion contrasted with the facts and evidence that we know. I can't make you actually use that evidence, that is on you. As for the rest of your post, just because you work in a nuclear power plant doesn't make you rational about all things in life. You just made an appeal to authority fallacy there. For instance, you don't need evolutionary theory to run a nuclear power plant. Therefore, it is conceivable that you could deny evolution is real and still run the plant just fine. Therefore, I take your resume with a grain of salt. Plus we are on the internet, your intelligence and rationale is judged by your words alone. You don't see me giving my resume to help substantiate my claims do you?

If you want to be rational for all your beliefs, then you first admit that you know nothing. So discard ALL belief systems, Christianity, science, spirituality, everything. THEN you apply the scientific method and gather objective evidence. Then you interpret that evidence and see what the evidence is saying. Unfortunately for you, the Bible is subjective evidence and there is no reasonable or rational explanation on why it would be true. There are too many holes in the logic to make the stories believable. People aren't trustworthy and people wrote the bible. That alone makes it doubtful, but it also defies physics and apparently is the only time in history that that has happened. Therefore it isn't consistent. And finally there is no evidence and even, at times, counter-evidence for the bible.

Believing the bible is just confirmation bias. You believe it because you WANT to believe it, not because it makes sense rationally.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Before we begin....

BTW: I'm tired of cutting through your walls of text full of useless fluff, so I'm just cutting my response to you short here. I don't usually tl:dr people, but with you I'm making an exception.

No problem ..again I make note of your pattern of operation and or thinking.

No it isn't. They aren't using those products or services so their input shouldn't be necessary. Hobby Lobby, for instance has suppliers in China that employ slave labor. Clearly that's not an issue for them.

Not a good comparison or debate point...that business...made up of people... does not control what the Chinese businesses do or the government of China but their US dealings. This is bait and switch of the type I illustrated in my previous post. The issue is the government controlling or abridging their first amendment rights...or if you prefer...divine right of kings...absolute power..when the first Amemdment says...Congress shall make no law...respecting the establishing a religion or or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Oh cool a nice fearmongering piece.

Not a good debate point.

I dunno, Europe seems to be fine despite everything you are crying about. Though I'm not the one itching for war. I WANT to stay out of the Middle East. It's Christians and the right who are itching to pick another fight with Islam terrorists, not me.

I too am not itching for a war. Europe is not fine at all. I too want to stay out of the middle east...
As I stated ..most Christians are ignorant of many things ..including Christianity and the Word.

However ..I suggest very strongly you research the "Sampson Option " if you want to see where events are headed.

Most Christians haven't a clue what it is and their ministers keep them ignorant ..neither do secular peoples...and our leadership is lying and deceiving us about this and what is coming. Our leadership too wants us ignorant of what is coming and programmed to go quickly into effect if certain conditions are met.

en.wikipedia.org...

By the way..in case you missed the pattern..you will not have to pick a fight with Islamic Terrorists...they have been picking fights with us for 30+ years and we haven't done anything about it. So too with Europe. What are you thinking here???

I know you don't NEED to insult me, but you are doing it anyways.

I am not that sensitive...are you high maintenance??

Speaking of insulting the readers, you are still off topic. None of this has to do with science or Christianity. Socialism is a political discussion, NOT a Christian or science discussion. The only reason I brought up Europe earlier was to contrast its largely atheist population to Christian populations to show that those countries are faring better.

Wrong again..Socialism is a belief system...a religion which attempts to gain absolute power..or put another way..divine right of kings over peoples thoughts, behaviors, and their religion. And it is being taught and promoted in public schools to our unarmed and uneducated vulnerable children.
I don't think they are faring better...they may look that way in the press and other media...but they are not faring better.
Oh...they may have architecture,art, or other such characteristics..but monuments do not indicate they are faring better. The key is how much of their individual production does the average European get to keep for themselves and their discretionary spending. This is where even our own government lies and deceives us. This is the index of liberty and freedom and not the PC template which is sweeping Europe along with fear.

Neither the USSR nor Communist China are relevant to today's world since neither of them exist as they did when they were committing genocide against its own people. Should I bring up Nazi Germany to show a Christian entity committing genocide against its own people? Because I certainly can. Actually, I can pick out many more theocracies that have done it. Your two shining examples of atheists behaving badly are just two examples. On my side, I have a list that spans back throughout the ages of this. I think you are outnumbered here.

Here you go again..narrowing down the time warp to fit your narrative. And also a substitution..like hunting in the second amendment when it says nothing about hunting. No problem. I once again point out the method and technique.

Democide....not genocide...

Remember what R J Rummel and also I said about democide..in the last 100 years. This is the time of science..of wise men running things..men who believed in science..nations full of scientists on the public purse. Science has done nothing about this historically...they have sold themselves to the highest bidder. They are still selling themselves to the highest bidder. To another religion called Politics. They are in bed together.
Those two nations were chosen because they have killed the largest number of their own people in the last 100 years and in addition to wars.. while staunchly adhering to the other religion of science to keep and maintain their power against their people.

Then you know little of history. This point in history is nothing new for the world.

I disagree...it is something entirely new for the world. Banks in certain nations have been in trouble..true. But never so many of them within a nation and with banks of other nations at one time. This is something new.

Also following WW2 ..many nations went into the central bank business...and all of them in correspondence with the Bank of England or its commercial subsidiaries. They are all tied together into a central bank system...not independent banks..but a central banking system. This too is not known by the average person in this world.

After each major confict and many of the minor ones ..a new banking system quietly entered to control and regulate business and by this ..the governments of these nations. The banks became the de facto government by making heavy commercial loans to these nations. Africa is a textbook example of this..with one recent exception...Libya. And we see what has happened to Libya. Libya was on the verge of having enough gold to issue it's own gold coinage. They were on the verge of teaching other African Nations to do the same and break the bondage of central banking. This is a huge no no in the banking/proxy government business.

Continued...

originally posted by: orangetom1999

Not a good comparison or debate point...that business...made up of people... does not control what the Chinese businesses do or the government of China but their US dealings. This is bait and switch of the type I illustrated in my previous post. The issue is the government controlling or abridging their first amendment rights...or if you prefer...divine right of kings...absolute power..when the first Amemdment says...Congress shall make no law...respecting the establishing a religion or or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Sure it is. It shows a clear conflict of belief. Hobby Lobby has a BIG problem with supplying contraceptives to its employees but no problems buying from companies that practice child labor. This is why I say that a business can't have religious beliefs, because businesses only care about the bottom line. In FACT this whole contraceptive thing is just Hobby Lobby trying to ram a religious argument into the discussion to protect their bottom line so they don't have to spend money on their employees. If you see it as anything but that, then you are fooling yourself.

The government isn't prohibiting anyone from practicing their religious beliefs. The owners are more than welcome to continue to not like abortions. They are more than welcome to not use those contraceptives. Giving those contraceptives to someone else isn't violating a religious belief.

Not a good debate point.

Nor was all that fearmongering. You claim Europe is on the verge of collapse, but Europe's economy is soaring right now. You spouted out a bunch of lies about Europe's economic stability as well as America's. On top of that, you included ZERO links to outside sources that corroborate your claims. Hence the fearmongering label. Deal with it.

I too am not itching for a war. Europe is not fine at all. I too want to stay out of the middle east...
As I stated ..most Christians are ignorant of many things ..including Christianity and the Word.

However ..I suggest very strongly you research the "Sampson Option " if you want to see where events are headed.

The Samson Option has to do with Israel's nuclear options. Israel isn't Europe.

Most Christians haven't a clue what it is and their ministers keep them ignorant ..neither do secular peoples...and our leadership is lying and deceiving us about this and what is coming. Our leadership too wants us ignorant of what is coming and programmed to go quickly into effect if certain conditions are met.

en.wikipedia.org...

Look, I certainly don't agree with the Samson Option, but that illuminates nothing about where the world is headed.

By the way..in case you missed the pattern..you will not have to pick a fight with Islamic Terrorists...they have been picking fights with us for 30+ years and we haven't done anything about it. So too with Europe. What are you thinking here???

Haven't done anything about it? Where have you been? Did you miss the last 14 years of us rampaging around the Middle East looking for Al qeada and Osama Bin Laden? Did you miss the part where we are drone bombing more than any other country in the world?

I am not that sensitive...are you high maintenance??

It's called being respectful to the person you are talking to, sensitivity or not.

Wrong again..Socialism is a belief system...a religion which attempts to gain absolute power..or put another way..divine right of kings over peoples thoughts, behaviors, and their religion. And it is being taught and promoted in public schools to our unarmed and uneducated vulnerable children.

No, Socialism is a political ideology. You can say that isn't the case all you want, but you would be wrong. The entire world considers Socialism a political ideology. But regardless, even if it is a religion, so what? It still isn't the topic of this thread.

Here you go again..narrowing down the time warp to fit your narrative. And also a substitution..like hunting in the second amendment when it says nothing about hunting. No problem. I once again point out the method and technique.

Democide....not genocide...

Democide IS genocide...

Remember what R J Rummel and also I said about democide..in the last 100 years. This is the time of science..of wise men running things..men who believed in science..nations full of scientists on the public purse. Science has done nothing about this historically...they have sold themselves to the highest bidder. They are still selling themselves to the highest bidder. To another religion called Politics. They are in bed together.

Yes, bad people exist and will use the systems of the day to their advantage. That goes for any ideology. What needs to be analyzed is how effective they are with it. Like I said, people are MUCH better at democide when they are religious.

I disagree...it is something entirely new for the world. Banks in certain nations have been in trouble..true. But never so many of them within a nation and with banks of other nations at one time. This is something new.

Go study the 1920's and 1930's again.

After each major confict and many of the minor ones ..a new banking system quietly entered to control and regulate business and by this ..the governments of these nations. The banks became the de facto government by making heavy commercial loans to these nations. Africa is a textbook example of this..with one recent exception...Libya. And we see what has happened to Libya. Libya was on the verge of having enough gold to issue it's own gold coinage. They were on the verge of teaching other African Nations to do the same and break the bondage of central banking. This is a huge no no in the banking/proxy government business.

Now we are talking about economics... AGAIN. Christianity and Science. Stop meandering off topic.