Lets meet our Hominid family tree.

a reply to: grumpy64

Redheaded sister?
Stop it bm no more redheads...remember the pain the last three put you through.
Ah cheers jiminy cricket I forgot lol.

a reply to: peter vlar

Ah cheers peter and welcome (this guy knows his stuff).
Glad you are in here to correct the bs I sometimes spout.

Ha! Thanks for the hominid tree. It helps to see where all the hominids fit and get some perspective. I saw one recently which was more simplified and left out heidelbergensis. From what I have read he was a big unit and could have ripped us to pieces with bare hands. And erectus does not look like he was actually an ancestor but a dead branch of the family line. Interesting.

cheers

originally posted by: boymonkey74
My pals Dad went mad when he heard red hair comes from the neanderthal bit in our DNA...he is Irish and shouted "They are always trying to dumb us paddies down!".

Typical from Sapiens to look other branches down :p

Neanderthal was at least on par with Sapiens technologically and culturally-wise. It's a common mistake from most people to equate cavemen with stupid.

a reply to: Develo

Oh I know like I said in my OP Erectus probably discovered fire and we may have not been the inventors of flint technology, it may be our caveman cousins .
Wish I could have a pint with one of each lol.

originally posted by: Develo

originally posted by: boymonkey74
My pals Dad went mad when he heard red hair comes from the neanderthal bit in our DNA...he is Irish and shouted "They are always trying to dumb us paddies down!".

Typical from Sapiens to look other branches down :p

Neanderthal was at least on par with Sapiens technologically and culturally-wise. It's a common mistake from most people to equate cavemen with stupid.

I'm glad to see ignorance towards my favorite hominid isn't flatlined across the board! Not only were they our equals, but some Neanderthal cultures were actually ahead of "us". There are sites in the Levantine Valley(northern Israel up into central Lebanon) where the Neanderthal lithic tech was actually superior to those of the H. Sapiens moving into the area from Africa. Even more interesting, to me at least, is that these two disparate cultures managed to learn from one another with HS learning the Neanderthal lithic technology and eventually cohabitating the same sites. A lot of people will argue that while it might look good on paper, there is no way to show with any degree of certainty that this was actually evidence of both hominid species actually living in the same villages simultaneously. I very much disagree as both are buried in the same "cemeteries" at some sites with similar grave goods. I find it highly unlikely given what we know about humanity, that "we" would bury our own dead with similar rituals and at the same sites which clearly have some spiritual significance to be used for such an extended period of time, if there were not close working and potentially familial ties between the 2 hominids. The plot gets a lot thicker but I'm going to quit while I'm ahead before I bore the hell out of everyone. The one thing never found that would've likely proven my thesis and got my paper published would have been remains of hybrids. Especially children. If we could get people in the region to stop blowing each other up for a few dig seasons the hard evidence might still lurk underneath the sand so I keep my fingers crossed just in case.

a reply to: peter vlar

You could never bore us Peter .
BTW do you do this type of stuff as a job?.

a reply to: boymonkey74

No, it doesn't now nor has ever paid my bills but my background is in Anthropology and I started grad school and did my research on Neanderthal. 17 years ago, the technology wasn't on my side and attempting to prove some of what I was working on at the time was all but impossible and even in instances where the technology might have been available, it was still in its infancy and extremely expensive and beyond the grants I was able to get. Just for the record, if or when I make comments like... things I attempted to prove in the mid 90's and was laughed at are now accepted science, it in no way means I was some big shot. There were a lot of people trying to prove some of the same things. Guys with more degrees than me and the backing of insitutions like Max Planck...errmmm cough* Svante Paabo* cough... were getting the money first and were farther along than I was and even someone at the level of Dr. Paabo was getting laughed at by peers. Anyway... I got frustrated, dropped my thesis and went back to playing music and spoend way to much time armchair quarterbacking on ATS haha

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: peter vlar

Ah cheers peter and welcome (this guy knows his stuff).
Glad you are in here to correct the bs I sometimes spout.

It's refreshing to see such humility, more often than not in these forums we see individuals incapable of admitting their bs is wrong. But.. your not one of those and have contributed greatly to deny ignorance!

a reply to: aorAki

Considering you have no real clue of what you're talking about here...I'll hold off.

And the photo was meant to be funny, making as much fun of myself as anything else, given the tone of what I was saying.

My apologies, I should have realized I'd need to be far more literal and spell it out in Jim Carrey "Dumb and Dumber" proportions.

The remains of a possible family group of Neanderthals, including an infant, were discovered in a cave in Spain, researchers reported. The bones of the 12 individuals show signs of cannibalism, suggesting another Neanderthal group came along and chowed down on the meat.

The origins of the soulless...

Geneticist say that Apes, Neanderthals and Denisovans have 48 chromosomes (24 pairs) and Humans have 46 (23 pairs) because Ape gene 2a and 2b joined end to end to form human gene 2. This evidently occurred 350,000 to 400,000 years ago. When I compare the skeletons, genes, tools and cultures of Neanderthals and humans, it looks like we are a couple of evolutionary jumps ahead. I attribute that to God creating us from Apes and also giving us a soul; that does not rule out some back crosses with existing Hominids or some Aliens splicing in some of their genes. That makes me a Heretic to my fellow Christians who I think are very deficient in science.

a reply to: Cloudbuster

Moneys have tails apes don't. Monkeys can't brachiate (sp) their shoulder (swing it in a 360. ) Apes can. Monkeys often but not always have claws instead of nails to help with climbing. Apes never do. I also believe the molar and bicuspbid (sp) count is different for the two.

Main difference is that monkeys stayed relatively small and so they could climb up a single tree branch to get to the ripe fruit at the top. Apes grew larger and couldn't support their weight on just one branch like a monkey and had to develop brachiation in the shoulders so they could better grab individual branches with their arms and feet to distribute their greater weight amongst several branches instead of one to get to the tree tops and the ripe fruit.

Then there is Ambam the upright walking gorilla. www.youtube.com...

correction: Monkeys can brachiate but use it in a hybrid with hopping and jumping from branch to branch. Apes brachiation differs where they generaly only use brachiation when in the trees. Also if I remember my primate anthropology classes correctly there is a difference in the shoulder joint between the two that allows for apes to brachiate easier or better. I dunno something like that.

originally posted by: roberthsiddelljr
Geneticist say that Apes,

yes, 24 pair

Neanderthals

unknown with a pretty big BUT...see below

and Denisovans have 48 chromosomes (24 pairs)

Untrue, recent analysis shows the Denisovans, like HSS have 23 pair of Chromosomes with the same fusion resulting in Chromosome 2 Denisovans differentiate from HSS by approximately 385 bases in the mtDNA and share the same number of chromosomes. Neanderthal differs by an even smaller margin, 202 bases therefore it is highly likely that they too have 23 pair of chromosomes.

biologos.org...

and Humans have 46 (23 pairs) because Ape gene 2a and 2b joined end to end to form human gene 2. This evidently occurred 350,000 to 400,000 years ago.

this event likely occurred closer to 1.2 MA. As shown above, Denisovans and very likely Neanderthal, also have 23 pair of chromosomes. For this to occur, the fusion of ape chromosome 2a and 2b would have to have occurred in the most recent common ancestor of the 3 species of hominid sharing the fused chromosomes, or earlier. This last common ancestor was in Europe ~1.2MA so that is the most recent point of possible fusion.

When I compare the skeletons, genes, tools and cultures of Neanderthals and humans, it looks like we are a couple of evolutionary jumps ahead.

In what ways do YOU believe "we" are a couple of evolutionary jumps ahead and wehat is your "yardstick" for this measurement?

I attribute that to God creating us from Apes and also giving us a soul; that does not rule out some back crosses with existing Hominids or some Aliens splicing in some of their genes. That makes me a Heretic to my fellow Christians who I think are very deficient in science.

To each their own but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Peter, thanks for the info. My bad info came from Wiki "Chromosome 2 (Humans)". After reading your excellent post, I found biologos.org "Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion" which estimates 800,000 YA. If so, that fusion doesn't look like a big jump now. The HSS skull does look like a big jump as do the tools and behavior especially since Neanderthal evidently didn't make the needed cultural changes to survive (continued big game meat diet using big spears in valleys & caves without boats). Evidence for God is supernatural (healings, rescues, visions, true prophecies, the Holy Shroud, etc). There is no way I can imagine that God, Heaven, Demons, souls etc. could have evolved.

Thanks for that. I do remember reading and I can't remember if it was on ATS or somewhere else online someone talking about studying physio therapy and they talked about some people %15 I think have a ligament? In their wrist that monkeys have to help them grip onto branches. If you press your thumb tip against your little finger tip then you will see it poking out or appearing at your wrist. I have this and love the idea I still have monkey in my genes. Check it out. Apparently it only %15 of the population.a reply to: BASSPLYR

Where would H. Capensis ("Bostwick Man") be on the hominid tree?

Are they a subcategory of H. Sapiens?

originally posted by: roberthsiddelljr
Peter, thanks for the info. My bad info came from Wiki "Chromosome 2 (Humans)". After reading your excellent post, I found biologos.org "Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion" which estimates 800,000 YA. If so, that fusion doesn't look like a big jump now.

I'm glad I was able to give you a different perspective and another direction to look in.

The HSS skull does look like a big jump

In what way? It's not a direct lineage from HN to HSS. They share a common ancestor but HN is strictly a European hominid whereas HS evolved separately in East Africa and the 2 lineages are separated by several hundred thousand years the farth back you look, the closer to their divergence, the more identical things begin to look.

as do the tools and behavior especially since Neanderthal evidently didn't make the needed cultural changes to survive (continued big game meat diet using big spears in valleys & caves without boats).

I've got to respectfully disagree. Approximately 60-70KYA, Homo Sapiens migrating out of Africa first made their way into the Middle East, specifically, what is today Israel and Lebanon. When they arrived there, there were already people living in the area. Neanderthals. These Neanderthal had superior tool making tech which they shared with their new found cousins. The 2 hominids eventually cohabitated the same sites, buried their dead together and shared grave goods indicating a great deal of social interaction and cooperation during life. The need to hunt large game wasn't so much a cultural issue as it was a physiological issue. To maintain the extremely dense muscle mass and large brain they possessed, they required much more protein than the newly arrived Homo Sapiens who had a much more diversified diet. We need to keep in mind that the bulk of Neanderthal's reign across Europe was under much colder conditions. With lower temps and increased ice sheets and glaciers, the air itself was much drier making desserts like the Sahara and Gobi expand dramatically. These dryer conditions led to borderline drought conditions across the globe and on top of that there was 20-25 times the dust in the atmosphere then as there is now as evidenced by ice cores going back over 100KYA so they evolved on the edge of the massive European ice sheets in much harsher conditions. Their physiology became VERY specialized and consequently, their diet more constricted and less varied than their equatorial cousins. When you add in the Toba Event ~ 70KYA it made for a bitter end for them and nearly so for us. HSS populations were reduced to less than 10,000 individuals world wide with some estimates much, much lower. If we were adapted to thrive in environmental niches that were more varied and nearly were wiped out, think about how much negative impact it would have had on a people who never made it much farther South than Iraq and never into Africa or South Asia because their bodies just weren't designed for the heat. We were in a genetic bottleneck...they never made it past the bottle cap.

Their spears didn't change a whole lot but there wasn't a lot of need for them to, until it was too late.

They did have boats and were sailing the Mediterranean 10's of thousands of years ago settling on far off Islands like Malta and Crete. They had religion, made musical instruments, created art, had culture and civilization. They were far more advanced than most people want to give them credit for. It's easier to view them as just dumb brutes and us as the superior species.

originally posted by: peter vlar

The gene that codes for red hair in Neanderthal is different from the gene that codes for red hair in "us".

Is it two different genes? Or two different mutations of the same gene (MC1R)?

It's sad that they are all gone, except in tiny fractions of our genes or genomes or whatever it is. How could this have happened?? I wanted to meet one. Haha, in reality, who knows? Maybe they would want to chop my face off with a hatchet while I'm asleep. Or maybe that's what we did... to them. I wonder why they could not get along? Was the conflict religious in nature? Racism? Territorial? Fighting over resources, like herds of wolly mammoths that were going extinct, causing more competition? A combination of everything, with a good sturdy foundation consisting purely of the sheer concept of "other"?