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Or like the people in Crimea and E. Ukraine democratically voted to become part of Russia? Please! At gun point maybe.
originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: JonStone
Certainly, I followed this situation from the beginning from multiple news sources and by speaking with Ukrainians via IRC. It's not hard to put 2 and 2 together to make 4.
E. Ukraine didn't voted to become part of Russia.
As for Crimea, despite some irregularities during the vote, can you show me figures what would be real figures of the vote ?
What is your estimate ?
originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: JonStone
I like your answer and pretty much agree with all you've said.
Now, compare, this answer with your short version of "at gun point may be". I'm against over simplification and btw, my estimate for Crimean "yes for Russia" would be higher, about 70-75% if the referendum had a long debate like say in Scotland.
I'm still curious about the "Inconsistancies" with the vote that you mentioned.
Another observer, Ewald Stadler, member of the European Parliament, dispelled the “referendum at gunpoint” myth, by saying he felt people were free to make their choice.
But do you believe that all those international observers made this interview "at the gun point" too ?
Well, someone is lying, because other sources say there were no international observers.
Contrary to the reports of 135 international observers from 23 countries, the Western media in chorus has suggested without a shred of evidence that the elections were rigged and that Crimea was under Russian military occupation.
The observer mission reports which include members of the European Parliament have been casually ignored by the mainstream Western media:
nsnbc.me...
Srdja Trifkovic, prominent and observer from Serbia: “The presence of troops on the streets is virtually non-existent and the only thing resembling any such thing is the unarmed middle-aged Cossacks who are positioned outside the parliament building in Simferopol. But if you look at the people both at the voting stations and in the streets, like on Yalta’s sea front yesterday afternoon, frankly I think you would feel more tense in south Chicago or in New York’s Harlem than anywhere round here,” he said.
Western Media would often try to control how the information is presented. Albeit they seldom using outright lies, more often under reporting, adding footnotes, adding remarks after several days and so on.
This tells me that there are limited sources from which they can acquire news where in America we have a choice, whether it's tamed to the right, the left, the middle or some small network who works in between.
In regards to observers, from MH17 up until today, there are reports that the observers are only allowed in specific areas, and denied from many others from which they should have access according to the ceasefire agreement.
It really is sad, because for the brief time that the US and Russia were working together following the cold war in the 90's, both sides were prospering.
At least 89% of the world does not believe what Putin is telling us. That has got to mean something, it certainly means a lot to Americans. We live in a global society now, and global opinion holds a lot of weight. It's not just NATO against putin's actions, it's most of the world. I try to look at it from Russia's point of view, so please try to see it from our own point of view.
originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Rocker2013
I would be concerned with Estonia too.
No way in hell will Kremlin play the same adventure with a NATO country that it is playing in Ukraine. Russia will ignore 10 Estonias for 1 Ukraine.
originally posted by: kitzik
Let me be clear, I don't live in Russia and don't know exactly how is life under current Putin regime. From my point, all Russian democracy ended in 1993 when Yeltsin shelled his parliament.
originally posted by: kitzik
As for 89% of the world, where is this figure from ? I think many many people around the world distrust both USA and Russia.
And this is the problem, USA ceased to be this "beacon of freedom on the hill". 89% for USA is "forced" and this is ugly truth that is hard for you to digest.
originally posted by: kitzik
As for freedom of press in Russia, undoubtedly there is less and less with each year under Putin, but Russians still have access to the Internet.
originally posted by: kitzik
In your place I would be concerned why Russian propaganda is somewhat succeeding, it would be hard to pull such propaganda 30-40 years ago.
While the Russians are masters of propaganda and were certainly effective at it 30-40 years ago
Take a look at that chat box next to RT broadcasts on YouTube and you can see the mentally deranged propaganda being directed at Russians on there. This is some of the most radical and bizarre propaganda you could ever see, on par with the nonsense North Korea spews regularly. The average forum post in English is not designed for the west, it's designed for those in Russia looking for an alternative to the media bombardment they're getting in the country.