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And now for the real reason for the war in Ukraine

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posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 02:44 PM
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a reply to: paraphi




However, if you have any authoritative source that the Ukrainian authorities are going to hand over land to oligarchs and "seed companies", then feel free to post them.


This has already been happening


Ukraine is often referred to as the “breadbasket of Europe.” In the last decade, the agricultural sector has been characterized by a growing concentration of production within very large agricultural holdings that use large-scale intensive farming systems. 18 The presence of foreign corporations in the agricultural sector and the size of agro-holdings are both growing quickly. 19 In recent years, more than 1.6 million hectares (ha) have been signed over to foreign companies for agricultural purposes. 20 The largest land deals involve 405,000 ha to a company listed in l uxembourg, 444,800 ha to Cyprus-registered investors, 120,000 ha to a French corporation, and 250,000 ha to a r ussian company. 21 China signed an agreement for 3 million ha of prime farmland in Eastern Ukraine in September 2013 but it is unclear if this deal will go forward with the change of government. a ccording to media reports, this deal is now “disputed.” 22 If it is implemented, the agreement would give China control over an area roughly the size of Belgium that accounts for 5% of all arable land in Ukraine.


www.oaklandinstitute.org...


The Oakland Institute is a progressive think tank founded in 2004 by Anuradha Mittal, the former co-director of Food First. Mittal is a considered an "expert on trade, development, human rights, democracy, and agriculture issues".[1] It is headquartered in Oakland, California. Since 2011, the Institute has unveiled land investment deals[2] in developing countries that reveal a disturbing pattern of a lack of transparency, fairness, and accountability. The dynamic relationship between research, advocacy, and international media coverage has resulted in an amazing string of successes and organizing in the U.S. and abroad.


en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 1-3-2015 by MasterMaximum because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:04 PM
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a reply to: MasterMaximum

Congrats! You just exposed farming consolidation that has been happening worldwide for a generation already!

Anymore scoops on Ukraine catching up with the rest of the world?



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:12 PM
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a reply to: noeltrotsky

The other poster asked me to provide another source to back up the claims made in the OP, and I did.

You can try to downplay it but it the Oakland Institute researched it for a reason,




Since 2011, the Institute has unveiled land investment deals[2] in developing countries that reveal a disturbing pattern of a lack of transparency, fairness, and accountability.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:21 PM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
See above. The Ukrainian government website is selling off Odessa port.This is not speculation.


I have already addressed that issue, see above. If state-owned assets are sold it is usually called privatisation. On the Odessa port privatisation/sale if it goes ahead then that would be about raising cash, but also introducing commercial investment.

However, the OP quotes an article that is based on a belief by the Left Party, who have no representatives in the Ukrainian parliament, and who are either stating an opinion or seeking clarification, that the Ukrainian government is going to give large parts of Ukraine's fertile agricultural land to oligarchs (whoever they are) and "seed companies", which have never been major landowners in the past.

The reason for the land giveaway is to pay loans. The IMF loan - the biggest - has conditions, including reducing corruption. Corruption would include enriching oligarchs.

If there are any authoritative sources that outline Ukraine’s agricultural "land grab", then please post.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:24 PM
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a reply to: noeltrotsky


Conclusion a lthough Ukraine started implementing pro-business reforms under President Yanukovych through the Ukraine Investment Climate a dvisory Services Project and by streamlining trade and property transfer procedures, his ambition to mold the country to the World Bank and IMF’s standards was not reflected in other realms of policy and his allegiance to r ussia eventually led to his removal from office. With the acceleration of structural adjustment led by the international institutions following the installation of a pro-West government, there has been an increase in foreign investment, which is likely to result in further expansion of large-scale acquisitions of agricultural land by foreign companies and further corporatization of agriculture in the country. Whereas it is feared that the structural adjustment program will increase foreign control of the economy as well as increase poverty and inequality, 49 the financial institutions have failed to demonstrate how such programs will improve the lives of Ukrainians and build a sustainable economic future.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:30 PM
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originally posted by: MasterMaximum
The other poster asked me to provide another source to back up the claims made in the OP, and I did.



To be picky, I asked for evidence (as per OP) that land was going to Ukrainian oligarchs and "seed companies". The Oakland Inst merely demonstrates that land is being bought and sold - with China taking a vast holding.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:44 PM
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a reply to: paraphi




I have already addressed that issue, see above. If state-owned assets are sold it is usually called privatisation. On the Odessa port privatisation/sale if it goes ahead then that would be about raising cash, but also introducing commercial investment.


Yes, still doesn't change the fact that they are selling it.




However, the OP quotes an article that is based on a belief by the Left Party, who have no representatives in the Ukrainian parliament, and who are either stating an opinion or seeking clarification,


It was a report discussing both the request by the left party and the response by the government. I already pointed this out to you.




that the Ukrainian government is going to give large parts of Ukraine's fertile agricultural land to oligarchs (whoever they are) and "seed companies", which have never been major landowners in the past.


They have been doing this already in the past years like I just showed you.




The reason for the land giveaway is to pay loans. The IMF loan - the biggest - has conditions, including reducing corruption. Corruption would include enriching oligarchs.



So now you admit there is a land give away. This is what the Oakland Institute report had to say about the corruption thing,


n May 2014, the Bank signed a Protocol of Support endorsing the Memorandum of Understanding for the Ukrainian a nti-Corruption Initiative between Ukraine, the European Bank for reconstruction and development (EB rd ), the o rganization for Economic Cooperation and d evelopment ( o EC d ), and the Ukrainian business community. d espite the Bank’s rhetoric around helping “civil society play a greater role in the monitoring of the budget,” 44 the acknowledged goal of the Memorandum is not as much improving governance for Ukrainian citizens or ending corruption as it is fighting the “unfair treatment of business [...] to improve the business climate in Ukraine.





If there are any authoritative sources that outline Ukraine’s agricultural "land grab", then please post.


Oh you are just going to ignore my post and that this is is obviously happening.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:46 PM
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a reply to: paraphi




To be picky, I asked for evidence (as per OP) that land was going to Ukrainian oligarchs and "seed companies". The Oakland Inst merely demonstrates that land is being bought and sold


Being sold to foreign parties. What does it matter if it is a seed company or an oligarch.

Comments like this just prove that you guys are not about the truth at all, just about the obfuscation.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:49 PM
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a reply to: MasterMaximum

MM, I think your right somewhat if I'm catching your drift so to speak.

It is rare for a bankrupt country to get a fair deal from the international multinationals that swoop in and generate profits. Shoot me before you think I like giant corporations and the profits they suck out of hard working people.

BUT

Ukraine is stuck in the multinational world that we all are living in. They are competing with Africa for investment. They have a nearly open trade arrangement with the EU now thanks to Russian aggression. Multinationals have lots of money and see they can get into Ukraine cheap and export to the EU.

Where do our views differ? Is it just that I think Ukraine has no other option and simply must take any investment offered to them? Are you suggesting there is a better option for Ukraine? Russia has been 'running' Ukraine for decades. Besides China and EU who is going to help Ukraine?



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 04:00 PM
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a reply to: noeltrotsky




MM, I think your right somewhat if I'm catching your drift so to speak.


You mean you can no longer attack my position without looking like an idiot. I agree.




Where do our views differ? Is it just that I think Ukraine has no other option and simply must take any investment offered to them?


It is quite the offer. "Sell us your souvereign nation's land and on top of that we will let you be indebted to us while we loot your country's riches."




Where do our views differ? Is it just that I think Ukraine has no other option and simply must take any investment offered to them? Are you suggesting there is a better option for Ukraine?


I don't know. Let's first acknowledge that the West is going to rape them as hard or harder than Russia did.

It would be better if Ukraine would be the owner of its own land don't you agree.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 04:34 PM
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originally posted by: MasterMaximum

Where do our views differ? Is it just that I think Ukraine has no other option and simply must take any investment offered to them? Are you suggesting there is a better option for Ukraine?


I don't know. Let's first acknowledge that the West is going to rape them as hard or harder than Russia did.

It would be better if Ukraine would be the owner of its own land don't you agree.


Well there is the difference! I see Poland as an example of a country escaping Mother Russia and becoming reasonably successful. I don't see examples of countries that stayed with Mother Russia and are successful.

Ah well...it was far too much to ask for us to agree.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 05:02 PM
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a reply to: noeltrotsky




I see Poland as an example of a country escaping Mother Russia and becoming reasonably successful.


Yes because they were in a position where they could really profit from everything that the EU had to offer over the backs of some Western European countries. Not saying the Polish didn't work hard but it has a lot to do with unfair practices as a result of EU policies. Poland had a lot of opportunity to offer relatively cheap labor and wasn't being sold off like Ukraine is.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 05:18 PM
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a reply to: MasterMaximum

Wow, you never responded to my reply on page 2 at the bottom. This is nothing more than a war for oil/natural gas.
edit on 1-3-2015 by Greathouse because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: Greathouse

Was your comment directed at me? I am discussing the claims presented by the OP. I am not even refuting your comment.

If this is in response to the thread's title you need to take it up with the OP.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 05:43 PM
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a reply to: noeltrotsky

I don't see that the EU has done a lot of most of the former USSR countries to be honest,they are saddled with debt and fighting to stay solvent.

www.techscio.com...


(post by Greathouse removed for a serious terms and conditions violation)

posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 06:00 PM
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a reply to: MasterMaximum

Yes my comment was inadvertently sent to you instead of the OP. The real reason for Putin's war is oil/gas.

If social media would look at the facts they would understand.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 06:20 PM
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a reply to: Greathouse




The real reason for Putin's war is oil/gas.


It could be one of the reasons.

I think it is clear that there are opposing parties that all want a part of the Ukraine.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 06:23 PM
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a reply to: MasterMaximum


Nope, it's the only reason for the war in the Ukraine. Go back and read my post at the bottom of page 2. Putin tried to negotiate for these same gas fields into 2012 and was denied.

Putin has an ongoing war for oil/natural gas but no one will talk about it.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 06:28 PM
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a reply to: Greathouse




Putin tried to negotiate for these same gas fields into 2012 and was denied.


Yes, and that proves that it is the only reason for the war?

I don't think you can make that claim just because it is your pet theory.



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