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Boris Nemtsov (Putin Critic) killed in the center of Moscow

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posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 05:18 PM
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originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

Why not explain what you would consider "evidence" in this case? What evidence is necessary to consider Putin as a suspect? What evidence would be necessary to implicate the Kyiv government? The United States? Please tell us so we can accommodate you.


Something to prove that he was connected to it besides accusations, (you know evidence) do you believe that accusations are enough to convict a person of a crime?


I didn't say "prove," did I? I said "consider as a suspect." Why do you seem to think we should automatically rule out Putin as a suspect? Why does it seem to seem reasonable to you to suspect Kyiv or Washington? What are your criteria? No-one here has the power to convict anyone, thank goodness. All we can do is express our opinions based on what information we have.




posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 05:24 PM
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originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

Why not explain what you would consider "evidence" in this case? What evidence is necessary to consider Putin as a suspect? What evidence would be necessary to implicate the Kyiv government? The United States? Please tell us so we can accommodate you.


Something to prove that he was connected to it besides accusations, (you know evidence) do you believe that accusations are enough to convict a person of a crime?


I didn't say "prove," did I? I said "consider as a suspect." Why do you seem to think we should automatically rule out Putin as a suspect? Why does it seem to seem reasonable to you to suspect Kyiv or Washington? What are your criteria? No-one here has the power to convict anyone, thank goodness. All we can do is express our opinions based on what information we have.


Then what is the problem here? I asked the people who said this was Putin's fault where is the evidence and you stepped in white knighting for them. I agree he is a suspect along side a big list of suspects. Are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of it these days?
edit on 28-2-2015 by sosobad because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-2-2015 by sosobad because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 05:34 PM
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a reply to: canucks555

Don't worry,

Putin promised to hunt down his killer and will consult with OJ on how to go about it.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 05:41 PM
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a reply to: sosobad


Then what is the problem here? I asked the people who said this was Putin's fault where is the evidence [Edit--DJW001].... I agree he is a suspect along side a big list of suspects.


And one can determine the likelihood of one suspect over another by looking at patterns of behavior and who stood most to gain by the crime. Although there is no proof it was Vladimir Putin, he stood most to gain by silencing a politician whom Yeltsin initially favored for the succession over Putin, and who might gain popular support if the situation in Ukraine and the Russian economy go sour. This murder is consistent with a series of deaths during Putin's rise to power. Although there is no direct evidence that he personally ordered his opponents killed, he was certainly the beneficiary. As the leader of a nation known for its history of authoritarianism, he is in a position to order the executions or to order that his opponents not be killed.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 05:51 PM
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originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

Why not explain what you would consider "evidence" in this case? What evidence is necessary to consider Putin as a suspect? What evidence would be necessary to implicate the Kyiv government? The United States? Please tell us so we can accommodate you.


Something to prove that he was connected to it besides accusations, (you know evidence) do you believe that accusations are enough to convict a person of a crime?


I didn't say "prove," did I? I said "consider as a suspect." Why do you seem to think we should automatically rule out Putin as a suspect? Why does it seem to seem reasonable to you to suspect Kyiv or Washington? What are your criteria? No-one here has the power to convict anyone, thank goodness. All we can do is express our opinions based on what information we have.


Then what is the problem here? I asked the people who said this was Putin's fault where is the evidence and you stepped in white knighting for them. I agree he is a suspect along side a big list of duspects. Are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of it these days?


I said I was going to reserve judgement until I saw hiw the police handle It.well it's beginning to look like a cover up they spray down the scene with firehose. They habe police all over the area yet a suspect steps out a vehicle and shoots others on a crowded street. Police all stationed all over the area they have so many cameras in that area they could stitch together a full length movie of the suspects and here we are still nothing. By now they should have at least an idea who the vehicle belonged to. But I see there trying to blame muslims.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 05:53 PM
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a reply to: DJW001

So are you directly accusing him them? If you are you would need a lot more than assumptions to validate it and if are not why are you getting so upset about someone asking for evidence when people are calling him a killer without anything coming out about it? I posted that question for the ones calling him guilty and you stepped in for them.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 05:57 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

Why not explain what you would consider "evidence" in this case? What evidence is necessary to consider Putin as a suspect? What evidence would be necessary to implicate the Kyiv government? The United States? Please tell us so we can accommodate you.


Something to prove that he was connected to it besides accusations, (you know evidence) do you believe that accusations are enough to convict a person of a crime?


I didn't say "prove," did I? I said "consider as a suspect." Why do you seem to think we should automatically rule out Putin as a suspect? Why does it seem to seem reasonable to you to suspect Kyiv or Washington? What are your criteria? No-one here has the power to convict anyone, thank goodness. All we can do is express our opinions based on what information we have.


Then what is the problem here? I asked the people who said this was Putin's fault where is the evidence and you stepped in white knighting for them. I agree he is a suspect along side a big list of duspects. Are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of it these days?


I said I was going to reserve judgement until I saw hiw the police handle It.well it's beginning to look like a cover up they spray down the scene with firehose. They habe police all over the area yet a suspect steps out a vehicle and shoots others on a crowded street. Police all stationed all over the area they have so many cameras in that area they could stitch together a full length movie of the suspects and here we are still nothing. By now they should have at least an idea who the vehicle belonged to. But I see there trying to blame muslims.


I didn't see that one yet about the Muslims, you got a link for it?


They probably have there suspects or leads but haven't released them, its the same world wide, look how long it takes to release info in the US.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 06:08 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr
I said I was going to reserve judgement until I saw hiw the police handle It.well it's beginning to look like a cover up they spray down the scene with firehose. They habe police all over the area yet a suspect steps out a vehicle and shoots others on a crowded street. Police all stationed all over the area they have so many cameras in that area they could stitch together a full length movie of the suspects and here we are still nothing. By now they should have at least an idea who the vehicle belonged to. But I see there trying to blame muslims.


Muslims?? I thought blaming the Ukrainian secret service was funny! If Putin hangs this on Muslim extremists I'll have to find a new level of laughter.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 06:17 PM
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originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: dragonridr
I said I was going to reserve judgement until I saw hiw the police handle It.well it's beginning to look like a cover up they spray down the scene with firehose. They habe police all over the area yet a suspect steps out a vehicle and shoots others on a crowded street. Police all stationed all over the area they have so many cameras in that area they could stitch together a full length movie of the suspects and here we are still nothing. By now they should have at least an idea who the vehicle belonged to. But I see there trying to blame muslims.


Muslims?? I thought blaming the Ukrainian secret service was funny! If Putin hangs this on Muslim extremists I'll have to find a new level of laughter.


Yeah saw that police are looking into Islamic terrorists since supposedly he received some threats???



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 06:28 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: canucks555

Don't worry,

Putin promised to hunt down his killer and will consult with OJ on how to go about it.


***aside***
I noticed OJ was up for parole in 2017 the other day watching a show about Goldman's sister. For some reason I thought he was locked up for a long time.
***return***



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 06:47 PM
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a reply to: sosobad

The Saker actually gives a good analysis on how those things work (interesting read)...

Good news out of Russia – even the “non-system” opposition refuses to blame the Kremlin



As for those who organized it, they also need somebody to get caught because if nobody ever gets caught, then this looks way too professional, but if a small cell of, say, rabid anti-Semitic nationalists, does get caught, then that exculpates all other possible suspects. Considering that the crime happened 200m away from the Kremlin, and that the city center is laced with cameras, I fully expect an arrest in the next 48 hours, a week max.

More Here



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 07:32 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: sosobad

The Saker actually gives a good analysis on how those things work (interesting read)...

Good news out of Russia – even the “non-system” opposition refuses to blame the Kremlin



As for those who organized it, they also need somebody to get caught because if nobody ever gets caught, then this looks way too professional, but if a small cell of, say, rabid anti-Semitic nationalists, does get caught, then that exculpates all other possible suspects. Considering that the crime happened 200m away from the Kremlin, and that the city center is laced with cameras, I fully expect an arrest in the next 48 hours, a week max.

More Here


Odd not what I read on interviews or even tweets they are laying this firmly on Putins doorstep saying he's created a culture of viloence As he embraces right wing thugs.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 07:38 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

That`s something completely different, it`s the same as saying Obama was behind Ferguson, it`s just typical political crap.

Caught On Tape: The Moment Boris Nemtsov Was Assassinated



As the world contemplates the various 'provocation' scenarios - a Russian act, a CIA act meant to look like a Russian act, or a Russian act meant to look like a CIA act? - the following clip suggests this was anything but an ad hoc shooting...


Source



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

Why not explain what you would consider "evidence" in this case? What evidence is necessary to consider Putin as a suspect? What evidence would be necessary to implicate the Kyiv government? The United States? Please tell us so we can accommodate you.


Something to prove that he was connected to it besides accusations, (you know evidence) do you believe that accusations are enough to convict a person of a crime?


I didn't say "prove," did I? I said "consider as a suspect." Why do you seem to think we should automatically rule out Putin as a suspect? Why does it seem to seem reasonable to you to suspect Kyiv or Washington? What are your criteria? No-one here has the power to convict anyone, thank goodness. All we can do is express our opinions based on what information we have.


Then what is the problem here? I asked the people who said this was Putin's fault where is the evidence and you stepped in white knighting for them. I agree he is a suspect along side a big list of suspects. Are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of it these days?


If you agree he is a suspect do you also agree that a suspect should not be in charge of a investigation?

And a suspect been in charge of a investigation seems a bit suspicious?
edit on 28-2-2015 by joho99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 08:18 PM
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I can't believe everybody is still playing the he said/she said game on this. Those asking for evidence if it was or was not Putin who ordered the hit, there is no evidence for either side. However, we are not trying to determine guilt here, we are having a discussion, and most of this involves opinions, that's all we have and it is something everybody is entitled to. Now if somebody makes a claim that can be proven or disproven, and asks for evidence on that, then I don't see an issue with that...especially if someone is attempting to provide actual numbers or known facts.

There are some who believe Putin to be innocent 100%, asking for evidence all the way when there simply isn't any. There is only motive and suspitious activity. Did he have a motive, yes he did and for anybody to scream to the top of their lungs saying no, he didn't, are just in denial. Is there suspition, yes there is. He immediately said he's personally take over the investigation, what President does this? It was also carried out in a very public place that was very secure, leading some to believe that it had to be ordered from the top. Afterall, this would have been like someone going in and robbing an American Donut shop full of cops. It was also suspitious that the scene of the crime was cleaned up so quickly and effectively instead of being roped off in case they missed something.

For the side that believes Putin did not do this, personally i'm not buying their argument that he had no motive (which seems to be the strongest argument), and there is no evidence. This is true, no solid evidence, but these same people don't seem to have a problem accusing the CIA or Kyiv without evidence either. The same says Kyiv shot down MH17, again no evidence, there is actually more evidence that favors the opposing party. The missile did appear to come from the location of a Russian Grad, which was later moved back to Russia. We have videos and satellite footage of this, it may not be good enough for Russia's supporters, but frankly, it's more than has been offered to the contrary.

Now Russian supports are also saying that there is no evidence that Putin is arming the rebels. There is tons of evidence, they just don't want to believe it. There are countless videos showing Russians and Russian equipment in Ukraine. Much of the latest equipment, such as the T-72MB Tank, can only have come from Russia, yet we have Photos, witnesses and Videos that clearly show these tanks in Ukraine. We also have many Russian Troops that have been killed in Ukraine, they were wearing thier ID tags and other items that define them as russian, this has also been well proven. And then there is the speculative evidence, which isn't actually evidence but can't be ignored either...it's more about mathmatics. The Rebels keep getting rearmed from SOMEWHERE, and videos clearly show Russian equipment coming over the border, not counting the "Aid" convoys. They can't exactly go buy this stuff at the local market, and much of this stuff has never been in the Ukraine military's possession. This arming of Ukraine, which the entire world knows about, yet Putin lies about also goes against Putin's credibility, which is another factor that indicates Putin may have committed this murder in the eyes of many.

We can argue this for the rest of the year, but many people are going to believe their opinion no matter what is put in front of them. I don't know if Putin did it, but my OPINION says he could have, this would be small stuff compared to the war he waged in Ukraine. He had the motive, the track record, the suspition factor and the means. This doesn't mean he did it, but it is why many believe he was capable of doing it. For Putin supporters, no amount of evidence is ever going to convince them that he may be capable of this.

People are acting like this is a court room. If it was, very few people in here would be allowed to be on the jury. Then again, what does a jury do? They listen to the defense and the procescution, and form an opinion based on different types of evidence. Some people present evidence to back up their OPINION, some do not and rely on nothing but faith in their belief. Some things can be confirmed, many things cannot.

Anyway, people need to chill. Nothing we say here is going to convict or aquit Putin from this crime. All we have is our belief and our opinion, for the moment anyway. I expressed mine until I had to go to bed last night, and others spoke against it, that's fine. But if you're going to treat a statement as fact, then facts can and should be proven. If you're going to treat it as an opinion, then that's all it is. If this was an inside job, then we'll never know. Even if they catch someone else, we'll never know because people are sometimes framed. All we have is speculation, and it's all we probably will have until the end of time. Sure it's fun to speculate, even to the point of arguing, but some folks need to calm down and stop being so sensitive.

The speculation and bashing may now resume.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 08:25 PM
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a reply to: JonStone



The speculation and bashing may now resume.


Like yours wasn`t...fail !



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 08:26 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I never said it wasn't.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 08:37 PM
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Not implying anything, but just come across this and wondered if it was normal to confiscate this type of a material in a murder investigation. I'm not familiar with Russian Police Practices.


During the night following the shooting, Nemtsov's apartment on Malaya Ordynka street was searched with the confiscation of all documents and materials related to his business and political activities.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 08:52 PM
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originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: DJW001

who is going to get scared? people are going to be mad yes. but scared? no.


The New York Times seems to disagree:
Source

Fear Envelops Russia After Killing of Putin Critic Boris Y. Nemtsov

MOSCOW — About two weeks before he was shot and killed in the highest-profile political assassination in Russia in a decade, Boris Y. Nemtsov met with an old friend to discuss his latest research into what he said was dissembling and misdeeds in the Kremlin.

He was, as always, pugilistic and excited, saying he wanted to publish the research in a pamphlet to be called “Putin and the War,” about President Vladimir V. Putin and Russian involvement in the Ukraine conflict, recalled Yevgenia Albats, the editor of New Times magazine. Both knew the stakes.

Mr. Nemtsov, a former deputy prime minister, knew his work was dangerous but tried to convince her that, as a former high official in the Kremlin, he enjoyed immunity, Ms. Albats said.

Mr. Nemtsov at an opposition rally last year. He was scheduled to lead a protest against the war in Ukraine this weekend.Boris Nemtsov, Putin Foe, Is Shot Dead in Shadow of KremlinFEB. 27, 2015
Medics put the the body of Boris Nemtsov, a former Russian deputy prime minister and opposition leader, on a stretcher in Moscow, Saturday, Feb. 28, 2015.After Boris Nemtsov’s Assassination, ‘There Are No Longer Any Limits’FEB. 28, 2015
“He was afraid of being killed,” Ms. Albats said. “And he was trying to convince himself, and me, they wouldn’t touch him because he was a member of the Russian government, a vice premier, and they wouldn’t want to create a precedent. Because as he said, one time the power will change hands in Russia again, and those who served Putin wouldn’t want to create this precedent.”

On Saturday, it was still not clear who was responsible for killing Mr. Nemtsov. Some critics of the Kremlin accused the security services of responsibility, while others floated the idea of rogue Russian nationalists on the loose in Moscow.

The authorities said they were investigating several theories about the crime, some immediately scorned as improbable, including the possibility that fellow members of the opposition had killed Mr. Nemtsov to create a martyr. Mr. Putin, for his part, vowed in a letter to Mr. Nemtsov’s mother to bring to justice those responsible.

As supporters of Mr. Nemtsov laid flowers on the sidewalk where he was shot and killed late Friday, a shiver of fear moved through the political opposition in Moscow.

The worry was that the killing would become a pivot point toward a revival of lethal violence among the leadership elite in Moscow and an intensified climate of fear in Russian domestic politics.

“Another terrible page has been turned in our history,” Mikhail B. Khodorkovsky, the exiled former political prisoner, wrote in a statement about the killing.

“For more than a year now, the television screens have been flooded with pure hate for us,” he wrote of the opposition to Mr. Putin. “And now everyone from the blogger at his apartment desk to President Putin, himself, is searching for enemies, accusing one another of provocation. What is wrong with us?”

Vladimir Milov, a former deputy minister of energy, and co-author with Mr. Nemtsov of pamphlets alleging corruption in Mr. Putin’s government, said he was concerned that the state could now target former officials like Mr. Nemtsov — or like him — deemed disloyal.

This comes as analysts of Russian politics say the Kremlin could be worried about, and intent on discouraging, further defections to the opposition, given reported high-level schisms between hard-liners and liberals over military and economic policy. The government is already under strain from Russia’s unacknowledged involvement in the war in Ukraine and runaway inflation in an economic crisis.

Mr. Milov posted an online statement saying, “There is ever less doubt that the state is behind the murder of Boris Nemtsov,” and that the intention was to revive a culture of fear in Moscow. “The motive was to sow fear,” he wrote.

Irina Khakamada, a former member of Parliament, suggested in an interview with Snob magazine that splinter groups in the security service intent on retaining Soviet practices, or “radical frozen ones, who think anything is allowed,” could be to blame.

Russian authorities said on Saturday that one line of investigation would be to examine whether Mr. Nemtsov, a 55-year-old former first deputy prime minister and longtime leader of the opposition, had become a “sacrificial victim” to rally support for opponents of the government, the Investigative Committee of the Prosecutor General’s Office said in a statement.



Read More



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 09:11 PM
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originally posted by: JonStone
Not implying anything, but just come across this and wondered if it was normal to confiscate this type of a material in a murder investigation. I'm not familiar with Russian Police Practices.


During the night following the shooting, Nemtsov's apartment on Malaya Ordynka street was searched with the confiscation of all documents and materials related to his business and political activities.




Yes, it's normal in a murder investigation to grab all someone's papers and computer to try to find out who they were interacting with and the nature of that interaction.



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