The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters, page 39
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reply posted on 24-9-2006 @ 11:12 PM by JFrazier
Originally posted by ACGoDZ
*I dont see the political pressure here because the EF-2000 lost in the first round of the competition. I never heard of this Singapore competition and it being pushed in a politcal manner, can you send me a link?

*Yes the EF-2000 and French Raf are very good fighters but there still 4th generation fighters right? I dont think the EF-2000 even features thrust vectoring, i heard of proposed plans. Also a EF-2000 can only supercruise on 6 missles and no fuel tanks. So judging i dont see the EF-2000 outmatching a F-15, obviously theres alot more stuff to factor but im thinking quick.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Eurofighter can supercruise with six missiles and a center tank. This has been verified many times. The Eurofighter and Rafale are 4.5 gen airplanes. Their aerodynamic and avionic development is beyond fighters such as the F-15, F-16, MiG-29, and Su-27.

Read the air to ground section in the Typhoon's wikipedia entry. It says that the Typhoon was the 'preferred technical solution'. The software needed just wasn't there at the time otherwise the Typhoon would hav probably won.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by JFrazier]


reply posted on 25-9-2006 @ 02:58 AM by phsyco
the typhoon doesnt have thrust vectoring and the only planes i do know is the
f-22 raptor
f-15k(f-15s/mtd)ACTIVE
su-37 terminator
any others cause these are the only planes i know that has thrust vectoring.

Originally posted by ACGoDZ


Well that doesnt make sense now does it? Should i say i dont know anything about A/C to get you to bealive me??? LOL im only kidding. Phsyco for the future dont tell people what they should or should not say, just talk about the forum and

[edit on 24-9-2006 by ACGoDZ]


no.imeant to say dont self promote your self.but dont worry i belived you the first
time you said it.and dont worry ill kepp your words in my mind the next time it happens


The F-15 Eagle is an all-weather, extremely maneuverable, tactical fighter designed to gain and maintain air superiority in aerial combat. The Eagle's air superiority is achieved through a mixture of maneuverability and acceleration, range, weapons and avionics. The F-15 has electronic systems and weaponry to detect, acquire, track and attack enemy aircraft while operating in friendly or enemy-controlled airspace. Its weapons and flight control systems are designed so one person can safely and effectively perform air-to-air combat. It can penetrate enemy defense and outperform and outfight current or projected enemy aircraft.

The F-15's superior maneuverability and acceleration are achieved through high engine thrust-to-weight ratio and low wing loading. Low wing-loading (the ratio of aircraft weight to its wing area) is a vital factor in maneuverability and, combined with the high thrust-to-weight ratio, enables the aircraft to turn tightly without losing airspeed.





tech.military.com...
didnt have space for the next part.

[edit on 25-9-2006 by phsyco]

(mod edit to add possible link to source and reduce size of huge copy paste)

[edit on 25-9-2006 by pantha]


reply posted on 25-9-2006 @ 03:22 AM by waynos
the typhoon doesnt have thrust vectoring and the only planes i do know is the
f-22 raptor
f-15k(f-15s/mtd)ACTIVE
su-37 terminator


Psycho, you need to lose this misconception you have that you are comparing real aircraft.

The F-22 and Typhoon are real, in production, in service fighters. The other two are not.
The 'Su-37 Terminator' was a project which as now died, for example;

The Su-37's life ended when T10M-11 (serialled 711) was lost in a crash on flying a ferry flight in Russia. The aircraft was not fitted with the TVC engines at the time of the crash. No other Su-35s have been converted to Su-37 specifications, nor has the Su-37 design entered production. The Su-37 was never an official designation


www.milavia.net...

Furthermore you equating of the F-15K with the F-15 SMTD is just plain fantasy (or even 'plane fantasy' )

The SMTD was a technology demonstrator produced as part of the ATF (F-22) programme, it was never intended to be used to upgrade F-15's in service and never will, it is now defunct, deceased, over, kaput. It is pushing up the daisies. It is an ex-project.

The F-15K however is simply an export multi role fighter based on the F-15E, simple as that, with none of the whizz bang gadgetry you are ascribing to it.

Also you areposting external information that shoots itself down with silly mistakes, for example where it says above that the name Typhoon is only intended for export markets outside Europe. Er, Hello? If that can get something so simple and basic so completely wrong, why trust the rest of it?

In the real world the F-22 outperforms the the Typhoon, which is less expensive and the Typhoon outperforms the F-15, completely in the A2A role if not (yet) A2G, which is cheaper still, due largely to the economy of scale brought about by the long production run it has enjoyed.

[edit on 25-9-2006 by waynos]


reply posted on 25-9-2006 @ 06:03 AM by ACGoDZ
*The typhoon has a pretty expensive price tag, that being 70-100 mil and the F-15 being half that being like 43 mil.
www.globalsecurity.org...
*I read for sure that the EF-2000 was over budgedted and over due, but that doesnt make it any worse.
*The EF-2000 is very amazing fighter but it does not completly defeat an F-15 in A2A, why do you figure this? F-15 in the Future will have moe powerful radars, AIM-9X, AIM-120D and still have the "High Speed Fire Missle Factor" my own words lol.
*WVR wise, yes F-15 is done pretty much.
*A2G, no doubt in my mind that a F-15E will perform much better unless you have some amazing new information i havent seen?

(mod edit to remove unnecessary quote of post immediatly before this one)

[edit on 25-9-2006 by pantha]


reply posted on 25-9-2006 @ 08:05 AM by waynos
ACGoDZ, you raise some points which I would like to return to

*The typhoon has a pretty expensive price tag, that being 70-100 mil and the F-15 being half that being like 43 mil.


Unfortunately the price tag of the Typhoon is extremely difficult to get hold of, most estimates I have seen on the net are just guesses and the only solid figure I've seen is the price of 61m (euros) paid by Austria. In any case all such deals are subject to various offsets and discounts and whatknot making extrapolating an accurrate price from any deal impossible, the general rule however is that the Typhoon costs about half as much as a Raptor (aided by the larger production run as well as the less expensive technology level) while the F-15 is indeed almost half as expensive again (for the same reasons). Any actual figures you might have come across are not to beas taken at face value.


I read for sure that the EF-2000 was over budgedted and over due, but that doesnt make it any worse.


Yes, absolutely. But then again so is almost everything else in the sky.


The EF-2000 is very amazing fighter but it does not completly defeat an F-15 in A2A, why do you figure this? F-15 in the Future will have moe powerful radars, AIM-9X, AIM-120D and still have the "High Speed Fire Missle Factor" my own words lol.


Think about that statement again, if you would. "in the future" and "will have" apply to the Typhoon just as much as they do to the F-15, with AMSAR and Meteor, for example still to come for the European aircraft, as well as a genuine prospect of recieving TVC which the F-15 will not have. Actual operational F-15's of today have one advantage over the Typhoon, that is that they are proven to be reliable and effective where the Typhoon is still working up to full IOC, much the same as the F-22 currently is as well. On the other hand while some F-15's are now getting AESA there is nothing in the US inventory at the moment with the same capabilities as PIRATE, the equivalent system intended for the F-22 having been dropped to cut costs.



A2G, no doubt in my mind that a F-15E will perform much better unless you have some amazing new information i havent seen?


If we are talking current Typhoon F2 vs F-15E in A2G then yes, absolutely. Also in terms of range and payload the F-15 will continue to have an edge despite the A2G upgrades that Typhoon is to recieve.

However there is a huge raft of modifications in the pipeline (for the RAF at least, it remains to be seen who else adopts them) with a wide range of smart and stealthy weapons to be integrated in order to allow the Typhoon top replace the Tornado GR.4, one of which is conformal tanks to increase range such as the F-15E already uses, at this point the difference in performance between the two types in the A2G role will be negligible, if slightly in favour of the F-15E.



reply posted on 25-9-2006 @ 04:28 PM by waynos

Waynos actually i read about the PIRATE and found nothing to any indication of it being better than anything we have?


I would never be so foolhardy as to claim it is 'better than anything' America has. What I said was that America currently has nothing in service with the same sort of capability, ie an IRST that has anything like the range and sensitivity, the ability to scan and individually track separate targets whilst prioritising them, just like a radar does, and which works equally effectively in the A2A and A2G roles and which meshes seamlessly with the radars own processing systems to enhance its abilities. Unless you know of one I have missed?

Westy, you are correct, it hasn't been ruled out that such an item will be fitted at some point and the current priority is the F-22'S radar, however it was put on the back burner for cost, rather than operational reasons and was part of the original spec, pretty much like the RAF Typhoon's cannon

Regarding the radar being better or not, I am just guessing but I reckon the AESA equipped APG-63 variants will have advantages in beam agility and all versions will be very reliable from the V1 onwards due to the huge experience gained with the set over previous years with earlier versions, indeed the V1 was created as a result of a drive to improve reliability, rather than performance.

The CAPTOR is designed to be at least as good, if not better, than the non AESA versions with the CAESAR model being the equivalent to these, but whether or not it actually is better I'm not in a position to say, especially as its actual performance parameters are classified, apart from the odd titbit of information such as a fighter sized target being successfully tracked from 86nm away at a deflection of 130 degrees. This isn''t saying its a maximum, just that it has been achieved.

I do know that the US APG-65 radar was evaluated for the Luftwaffe 'Typhoon 2000' but was rejected. I suppose its not just a case of which one is 'better', but which one meets the needs of the force that has to use it?



[edit on 25-9-2006 by waynos]
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