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The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

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posted on Sep, 13 2006 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by phsyco
by the way i dont think they meant it with missiles or guns.just get a bulls eye or aim it perfectly with the gun.no armaments.now why didnt they check there raptor in a test dogfight.check out utubes videdos.and then see how the 37 flies.and tell me where i can find a raptor fly.:roll
no foffense(again)show me)

Again, why would the US want to fly their most advanced fighter of all time against another fighter just for fun? That is waste of time, money, and skill. Would you want your enemy to study your weapon before you even field it?

The official demo for the Raptor comes in 2008. You will have to wait until then to see its true capabilities.




posted on Sep, 13 2006 @ 06:55 PM
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Daedalus3

Never heard of a AKs kill ratio, but that still wouldnt make it a better gun just the fact that someone who fights with an AK fights someone else with a AK. Over all the M-16A2 is better despite what u think (wanna try me on this one and id destroy you on the topic). .


1. F-15C Radar is better no matter by how much. The fact that it has that is an advantage.

2. Its also still faster, which has it advantage at fireing missles if you didnt know that? Its climb rate vs a SU-27? not really sure but in BVR dont really care.

3. F-15 Eagle combat radius being 1222 miles and I got a combat radius of a SU-27/30 being a figure around 860. So what are you talkin about? Unless you can show me clear cut proof.

4. An AIM 120C + AESA is better than a R-77 + NO11M in my opinion because Radar is better and the Kill probability and tactics on a AIM-120C. Dont care about the R-77 performace.

Also read that if a target is

" Lower altitudes, rear aspect, or maneuvering targets will all reduce this range" (referrin to R-77)
But the AIM-120C isnt effected by this. Also the R-77 is heavier than a AIM-120C (disadvantage). Reports also say that the R-77 is more Manuv than a AIM-120a and b but never heard this against a AIM-120C. But if it is, its also cause the R-77 is a NEWER and BIGGER missle.

5. Always read that F-15C avionics are better than a SU-27(it be a long night to prove avoinics is better but ur not important for that now are u?)
and that the SU-35 is equal or better (only because of WVR upgrades) because of long years of Upgrades.

6. Dont care if a SU-27 has no Air to Air record, doesnt change the fact that the F-15C has a perfect record of 101 and 0.

Honestly past this point dont really care what you have to post because no matter what you say the F-15C is better than a SU-27/30

and

either better (not by alot), equal, worse (in WVR wise) than a SU-35

Also why cant we compare a SU-37 to a F-15 that demonstrated short takeoff, high Maneuverability, canard foreplanes and thrust vectoring engines??? That wouldve created essentially an easier answer to the SU-37/Typhoon (but that would be the Russian way in thinkin?). Especially if they upgraded with newer avoinics and AIM-9x and AIM-120D.

But i guess the F-22 is just a monster.



posted on Sep, 13 2006 @ 07:17 PM
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Lower altitudes, rear aspect, or maneuvering targets will all reduce this range" (referrin to R-77). But the AIM-120C isnt effected by this.


Why wouldn't AIM-120C be affected by this? Low altitude reduces missile range due to air density, rear aspect reduces range because the missile has to play catch up (takes longer to close the distance), and manoeuvring targets make the missile bleed energy as it corrects course. Also, if you launch beak to beak at Rmax, even a small change in aspect will trash your shot.

The R-77 is, in my opinion, inferior in many ways to the AMRAAM (primarily range and seeker capability). But the reason you provided above is simply untrue.



posted on Sep, 13 2006 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
Daedalus3

Never heard of a AKs kill ratio, but that still wouldnt make it a better gun just the fact that someone who fights with an AK fights someone else with a AK. Over all the M-16A2 is better despite what u think (wanna try me on this one and id destroy you on the topic). .


Even though when it comes to assault rifles, the kill ratio doesn't matter, I do believe that overall the AK-47 is a much better assault rifle, just because the US uses the M-6A2 doesn't make it better. By far, the AK-47 is the most sold and most produced weapon on the face of the Earth, why? Well for one, it won't break, it's steel and wood construction makes it a very durable and flexible design, gas operated, everyone loves the damned thing, it has a higher caliber roudn than the M16A2 and you can throw the Ak-47 to the ground, pick it up and still fire it as if it were new, it can fall to the floor, be burried in the sand, go into mud, and still come out firing as good as it did before. It requires as much maintenence as the M-16A2 and I believe that the Ak-47 is Cheaper than the M16A2, 700,000,000 rifles seems to prove that the AK-47 is the better Assault rifle. Numbers don't lie. Ok sure, the M16A2 has a longer kill range, it can shoot more rounds per minute, has a higher muzzle velocity, but I bet if you put a the same beating on the M16A2 as you did on the Ak-47, the M16A2 would fail where the Ak-47 wouldn't, I'll take the gun that takes the punch and packs a punch at range, I don't know about you, but I won't be sniping with an Assault Rifle.


1. F-15C Radar is better no matter by how much. The fact that it has that is an advantage.


Well, unlike the F-22A, the F-15C is not stealth, go figure.


2. Its also still faster, which has it advantage at fireing missles if you didnt know that? Its climb rate vs a SU-27? not really sure but in BVR dont really care.


So wait, I always thought that Rate of climb had as much to do with BVR as speed did... Hmmm. Care to explain your reasoning? Because I don't understand it, make sure you do it in Leyman terms too, not all of mortals are as "smart" as you. But! The Su-27 has a slightly high Thrust/Weight ratio.


3. F-15 Eagle combat radius being 1222 miles and I got a combat radius of a SU-27/30 being a figure around 860. So what are you talkin about? Unless you can show me clear cut proof.


True, can't argue cold hard facts.


4. An AIM 120C + AESA is better than a R-77 + NO11M in my opinion because Radar is better and the Kill probability and tactics on a AIM-120C. Dont care about the R-77 performace.


Exactly, it's your opinion, I don't know why you praise AESA and AIM-120C as the cure all for all conflicts. You should care about the performance of the weapons systems your putting down, otherwise it's obvious you don't understand their capabilities.


Also read that if a target is

" Lower altitudes, rear aspect, or maneuvering targets will all reduce this range" (referrin to R-77)
But the AIM-120C isnt effected by this. Also the R-77 is heavier than a AIM-120C (disadvantage). Reports also say that the R-77 is more Manuv than a AIM-120a and b but never heard this against a AIM-120C. But if it is, its also cause the R-77 is a NEWER and BIGGER missle.


Well we are talking about the AIM-120C as you are praising it with AESA and, tell me how the AIM-120C denies the physics that affects the R-77? Physics is physics, AIM-120C is not some miracle weapon, as you've said, the R-77 may be more manueverable because it's newer and has larger control surfaces, so how would the AIM-120C have none of the problems the R-77 encounters in the aspects mentioned?


5. Always read that F-15C avionics are better than a SU-27(it be a long night to prove avoinics is better but ur not important for that now are u?)
and that the SU-35 is equal or better (only because of WVR upgrades) because of long years of Upgrades.


Please, try to have some form of respect for the people you're debating with, the Su-35 is not equal to the F-15C, it is superior to it, and not just because of WVR upgrades.


6. Dont care if a SU-27 has no Air to Air record, doesnt change the fact that the F-15C has a perfect record of 101 and 0.


saying "I don't care this or that" means 1 thing, it means you obviously are oblivious to some basic facts and choose to believe one thing with a closed mind, if you'd open your mind a little and were willing to accept other opinions and facts, maybe things might a bit different, the F-15C is not as invulnerable as you think.


Honestly past this point dont really care what you have to post because no matter what you say the F-15C is better than a SU-27/30


I've read it several times before, the F-15C is inferior to the Su-27 as proclaimed by the USAF.


and

either better (not by alot), equal, worse (in WVR wise) than a SU-35

Also why cant we compare a SU-37 to a F-15 that demonstrated short takeoff, high Maneuverability, canard foreplanes and thrust vectoring engines??? That wouldve created essentially an easier answer to the SU-37/Typhoon (but that would be the Russian way in thinkin?). Especially if they upgraded with newer avoinics and AIM-9x and AIM-120D.

But i guess the F-22 is just a monster.


Well what's there to compare to? the F-15 ACTIVE system was a technology demonstrator that saw no service and had no variant see service. It's technologies would later be used in aircraft such as the F-22A. Which is what it was meant to do, test for technologies. Now the Su-37 was later reverted back to the original Su-35 with all it's upgrades as a service fighter because well... Russia just doesn't have the money to throw away on new developments that the US does, that's why the US won the Cold War, the USSR ran out of money faster. But I think that he Su-37 would be overall better than the F-15 ACTIVE.

Shattered OUT...

[edit on 13-9-2006 by ShatteredSkies]



posted on Sep, 13 2006 @ 08:53 PM
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Please, try to have some form of respect for the people you're debating with, the Su-35 is not equal to the F-15C, it is superior to it, and not just because of WVR upgrades.


What exactly makes the Su-35 'superior' to the golden eagle?

Pardon the one-liner but it's the only question I have, at the moment.



posted on Sep, 13 2006 @ 09:15 PM
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Ok shatter this is for you

1. The F-15C isnt stealth umm go figure NEVER said it was. What was your point there? Actually had nothing to do with the fact that the RADAR and Avoinics on a F-15C is better than a SU-27/30. Matter of fact there was no reason to bring that point up.

2. Hmmm dont no the rate of climb vs the 2 aircraft but if you can show me websites that will tell me this ill look. Also show me a website that will fully explain why Rate of climb would help BVR. And again show me a website where it says the SU-27/30 have a better thrust to weight ratio. Dont wanna see what you think i wanna know cold hard facts so post the websites. Alo doesnt change the Fact that speed is more valuable in BVR than Rate of climb and Thrust to weight ratio because speed will give your missles more accuracy, range and speed. The other 2 are more for WVR. You think other wise, show me a website.

3. Exactly cold hard facts.

4. Kinda of messed up on my missle facts, but that doesnt change the Fact that the AIM-120C software and Seeker is better than a R-77. Also why are you putting words in my mouth? never said the F-15C was a cure for the USA probems. Im just stating that its not inferior. Dont understand how anyone can go so low and state that a F-15C is inferior, but hey we need you for this Forum.

5. Hey if you wanna call the F-15 inferior to the SU-35 thats your view but whats funny is you cant back it up. Matter of fact anyone can come here and say anything is better than another, but you know what? Thats just to easy, so if you can clearly clarify and tell me what a SU-35 has in BVR that a F-15C doesnt than we can move on because I can tell you why a F-15C is better than a SU-35, but only till you go first.

6. Ouch what Quote from what website can you show me when USAF admitted to saying a F-15C was inferior? That would just be stupid wouldnt it?

7. a. All of the SU-37 upgrades werent incorprated in the SU-35, dont go that far.
b. F-15 active would be better than a SU-35 because it would have the Equals in WVR but still maintain a better BVR stance.

I could back that up shatter, can you?

One thing is im never open minded to people opinions for one its there opinion.

2nd you dont state facts so i read and debate back (reflex).

More countries have excepted F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 C and E (vs) SU and MIGs. Theres no facts you can show me otherwise.

Dont give me examples like IRAQ, IRAN, NORTH KOREA , 3rd world. I MEAN JAPAN, SOUTH KOREA, Australia, Sweden etc.

M-16 vs AK-47

AK-47 More Durable, Cost less and has powerful ammo. Scopes, Grenade lauchners all require special attachments making the gun heavier and bulkier. 600 round per min. 328 yard range.

M-16 Weighs less, 5.56 x 45 mm Armor piercing is more effective than AKs ammo, 750-900 round per min, 600 yard range, Verstile meaning you can transform the gun into 100 s of variants (like grenade launchers, snipers, spec ops, etc with no special attachments), More accurate, Bullets are faster, Theres muc more but that would be a waste of time.

and back to the point of being durable

1. M16 was not durable during viet okay but now its very durable (not as the AK) but just as good. Example 1. cleaning kits, new gun powder etc. 2. Navy seals run their guns threw swamps, lakes , oceans and shoot with no problem. 3. Matter of fact all Spec ops bring there guns threw vigoourus inviorments such as deserts, jungles, etc with no problems. Durability used to be a problem of the past because of course the gun was new and not tested enough.

Hmmm of course a gun like a AK-47 would sell in such large numbers when 3rd world countries abusely buy them. For a country like Afgan a AK would be perfect cause they dont have the money to maintain anything better. A AK is simply good enough like a Toyota Camry is Good enough. But hey i drive a benz
.

You dont want to admit this because that would be to easy wouldnt it?








[edit on 13-9-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Sep, 13 2006 @ 11:03 PM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
Daedalus3

Never heard of a AKs kill ratio, but that still wouldnt make it a better gun just the fact that someone who fights with an AK fights someone else with a AK. Over all the M-16A2 is better despite what u think (wanna try me on this one and id destroy you on the topic). .



Considering how 'well' you're doing here I'd wouldn't want to waste the effort you see.



1. F-15C Radar is better no matter by how much. The fact that it has that is an advantage. An advantage of 5 seconds on a graph which in my opinion doesn't have an accurate curve for the


Iraqi-Information-Minister/Iranian State Media anyone?!!




2. Its also still faster, which has it advantage at fireing missles if you didnt know that? Its climb rate vs a SU-27? Not really sure but in BVR dont really care.


And what advantage is that excatly?Lets see if YOU know..

Yes climb rate v/s all Su27+ variants..



3. F-15 Eagle combat radius being 1222 miles and I got a combat radius of a SU-27/30 being a figure around 860. So what are you talkin about? Unless you can show me clear cut proof.


F-15C flight Combat Range(Max & recommended?) w/o CFTs :


1,000 nm (1,150 mi; 1,853 km) Max Combat Radius
685 nm (790 miles; 1270 km) combat radius


The Su30 has extended internal fuel reserves and hence doesn't usually carry droptanks in favour of a better weaps config.
Range on internal fuel W/O CFTs

3000km


with CFT


4. An AIM 120C + AESA is better than a R-77 + NO11M in my opinion because Radar is better and the Kill probability and tactics on a AIM-120C. Dont care about the R-77 performace.

Your opinion? I Don't care about it then..

Also read that if a target is



" Lower altitudes, rear aspect, or maneuvering targets will all reduce this range" (referrin to R-77)
But the AIM-120C isnt effected by this. Also the R-77 is heavier than a AIM-120C (disadvantage). Reports also say that the R-77 is more Manuv than a AIM-120a and b but never heard this against a AIM-120C. But if it is, its also cause the R-77 is a NEWER and BIGGER missle.



Are you nuts.. Do even know the effects of air pressure above S/L on ALL types of flight?



5. Always read that F-15C avionics are better than a SU-27(it be a long night to prove avoinics is better but ur not important for that now are u?)
and that the SU-35 is equal or better (only because of WVR upgrades) because of long years of Upgrades.

The avionics on any Su 27+ variant can be fitted on any other Su-27 variant.
Keep up the good reading..




6. Dont care if a SU-27 has no Air to Air record, doesnt change the fact that the F-15C has a perfect record of 101 and 0.







Honestly past this point dont really care what you have to post because no matter what you say the F-15C is better than a SU-27/30

and
either better (not by alot), equal, worse (in WVR wise) than a SU-35

Looks like the adjective overtones are gradually becoming more 'measured'?
You don't seem to realise that there isn't much of a difference between a Su30 and a 35 EXCEPT that the Su30 has a dedicated weapons/engg co-pilot along with a dedicated fighter pilot. Yes I can't begin to explain the advantages of that esp in the realm of data linking with other a/c and AWACS.

Here's a bit from Global Security (which usually debunks non-western equipment). Looks like they've upgraded the content after various encounters with Su-27 variants:



The Boeing F-15C Eagle is the most capable and lethal air-to-air fighter currently in service worldwide. The F-15C has an air combat victory ratio of 95-0 making it one of the most effective air superiority aircraft ever developed. The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superior radar, the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. A few F-15Cs are equipped with the APG-63(V2) Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar and Fighter Data Link (FDL). Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraft's maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles. Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed.
Source


C'mon now.. with you're favorite F-22A fanboy kill ratio figures in the above
excerpt, you've got to believe what they're saying!!


Finally you should read up on Cope India 04, Cope Thunder, Cope India 05 and Cope India 06. Here F-15Cs and F-16s played off against Su-30Ks/Mks/MKIs, MiG21s/Bis,Mig-27MLs,Mirage 2000Hs and maybe even MiG 29Bs.
You'll realise that no a/c is ineherently 'better' than the other but tweaks in avionics,radar and weapons loadout;reworks of tactical formation flying and data linking between a/c(esp radar feed) can make flight grp of even say 1(2) superior radar platform(say Su-30) along with platforms like the MiG 21(Yes the MiG 21) pose a serious threat for equivalent number of opposing a/c, may they be
F-15s or F-16s.If the F-15Cs/F-16 employ similar strategies then its game-on.
Only Su-30s with F15Cs/F-16s? Tough on the F-15Cs/F-16s but not a guraanteed loss. Never is.
And please read up on DACT as well.



[edit on 13-9-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Sep, 13 2006 @ 11:18 PM
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Daedalus3

1. Thx

2. Whod you Quote because that wasnt me?

3. Huh? Like i said i dont know if a SU-27 has a better climb rate which again wouldnt help in a BVR thats for WVR. Speed is a need because the faster you go and fire your missle at that speed, your missle becomes more accurate, more range and more speed.

4. What external source you pull that from? and how come you dont have a source for that BS claim of a SU-30 having a 3000km range?

F-15C has a 1,222 combat radius
SU-27/30 860

Dont care what you say thats a straight fact.

5. An AESA and a AIM-120C performs better than a R-77 and NO11M because more range on the radar and better software and seeker on the AIM-120C.

6. Dont understand why a F-15C is .3 worse than a SU-35? Maybe because the SU-35 was upgraded so much? But how did Globalsecurity figure this all out. Also why do they call is th most and lethal fighter but its .3 worse than a SU-35? Seems like a problem.

7. Hope you understand that all cope engagements USA was always were put in unfair advantages. Like outnumbered, no BVR, No Awacs, over enemy land and enemy had homeland radar. Thats the stone cold truth. So again dont care about that.

Whats with this F-22A fan boy thing your talkin about? Im not a fan of any A/C. But i know the F-22A is the best of the best.

BTW look at my 2nd to last post maybe you want more to rebutal?



[edit on 13-9-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 03:40 AM
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Originally posted by JFrazier
No Flanker be it Su-30MKI, Su-37, or Su-35 will be able to see the Raptor plain and simple. They will not be able to detect an LPI radar. In a dogfight they will be fairly equal as the F-22 and TVC Flankers each have their advantages. Russian missiles not superior to American missiles in every situation. Maybe in pure performance but that is not everything when it comes to missile technology.

The F-22 is on a totally different level than any Flanker. It's electronics are magnitudes more advanced. It is faster and can sustain speed for much longer. They are answers to the F-15 and that's it. There is reason why it is so expensive. The USAF has prepared it for almost every threat to come in the next 20-30 years.

Basic motto: You can't hit what you can't see.

not true.the 37 can fire missiles backwards.so radar see piolet do



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 03:47 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by JFrazier
No Flanker be it Su-30MKI, Su-37, or Su-35 will be able to see the Raptor plain and simple. They will not be able to detect an LPI radar.

At any range?(Assumming that the Su whatevers don't ALL get shot down at BVR)
Maybe you shouldn't be sharing such vital information(if completely true) in open fora

Are just talking about detecting LPI radars or are we talking about RCS as well?


In a dogfight they will be fairly equal as the F-22 and TVC Flankers each have their advantages.

Except for the incredible climb rate(which I can't find credible sources to..help?),and a super chin-control surface(on which I have yet to receive further info on), I don't see how the F22-A can maintain yaw/bank rates equivalent to a AL-31FP TVC assisted with canards.
Having said that though,I am contented to conclude that the a/c are 'comparable' at WVR on a 1-to-1 basis. Nobody should probe deeper than that anyways.



Russian missiles not superior to American missiles in every situation. Maybe in pure performance but that is not everything when it comes to missile technology.


True..again 'comparable/equivalent' is the key-word here. Beyond that its impossible to judge a winner from a desktop.



The F-22 is on a totally different level than any Flanker. It's electronics are magnitudes more advanced. It is faster and can sustain speed for much longer. They are answers to the F-15 and that's it. There is reason why it is so expensive. The USAF has prepared it for almost every threat to come in the next 20-30 years.


Faster in terms of climb rate and supercruise right? Top speeds at S/L are comparable and I still need that rate of climb.
Electronics, yes of course.. but the Su-30s with various countries don't run on suites ONLY provided by Russia. IAF Su30s have laods of Israeli/French stuff esp since they maybe configured to fire the Derby and/or Magic Matra. Still the F-22A avionics suite is the best buy there is. No doubts..there never were.stop here.

okay the su.can see the raptor in a close range but the mign31 has a differant story.it can see the raptor in a long range.and when the bays are open by the raptor its visible on radar(what i heard)



[edit on 12-9-2006 by Daedalus3]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


You have a U2U

[edit on 14-9-2006 by masqua]



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 03:50 AM
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stop here.

okay the su.can see the raptor in a close range but the mign31 has a differant story.it can see the raptor in a long range.and when the bays are open by the raptor its visible on radar(what i heard)

i wrote this.



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 03:59 AM
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by the way ghotbr.tell me how to do a jacknive.i know the 37 does a(su-37)corbra manuvere at high speeds.maybe at mach speed.btv i heard the wings were ripped a part when done with the full load.another rumor



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 05:42 AM
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1.JSF
2.F-22
3.MFI
4.Su-37
5.LCA /MCA
6.Typhoon
7.Rafael
8.F-18E/MIG-29/SU-30/F-15





Text



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 05:45 AM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
2. Whod you Quote because that wasnt me?


If you're gonna claim you didn't say something, then maybe you should go back to your post two posts up the page and edit it out. Because it's right there, exactly as he quoted it, posted by you.



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 06:11 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23

Obviously the F22 is better than any other jet. However, it also costs 5 times as much as any other jet...


No it does not, that is one of the biggest myths of the F-22 program, it currently costs 130 million (probably less) and the price goes down with every buy, when the USAF gets their 183 the F-22 will only costs 117 million. The Typhoons that Austria bought in 2003 cost 80 million each and the latest flankers are going for 50 plus million.

[edit on 13-9-2006 by WestPoint23]

ok twice as much than any other jet that will actually have the slightest possiblility of versing.




3. F-15 Eagle combat radius being 1222 miles and I got a combat radius of a SU-27/30 being a figure around 860. So what are you talkin about? Unless you can show me clear cut proof.

4. An AIM 120C + AESA is better than a R-77 + NO11M in my opinion because Radar is better and the Kill probability and tactics on a AIM-120C. Dont care about the R-77 performace.

1: Aren't R-77s short range? In the scenario the su27 is pretty neat (not better) with its SCHELM.

2: Combat radius has little to do with who would win in a fight.

Noone here can judge weather a F-15 or su35 is better, I don't care what you say, but you don't know much about the systems on these thngs. Published statistics are hardly beleivable.

[edit on 14-9-2006 by PisTonZOR]



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 06:14 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
2. Whod you Quote because that wasnt me?


If you're gonna claim you didn't say something, then maybe you should go back to your post two posts up the page and edit it out. Because it's right there, exactly as he quoted it, posted by you.


Wow Zaphod he did miss quote me. What am i lying? He added words to my quote. He added this exactly

"An advantage of 5 seconds on a graph which in my opinion doesn't have an accurate curve for the"

Never said that on any of my posts.



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by phsyco
stop here.

okay the su.can see the raptor in a close range but the mign31 has a differant story.it can see the raptor in a long range.and when the bays are open by the raptor its visible on radar(what i heard)

i wrote this.


Phsyco get over this already, a MIG-31 doesnt have this super radar that can detect a F-22A at long ranges, Even if the F-22A does open its bay to fire. Also a F-22A will get close enough to a SU and fire a sidewinder without it seeing it.

Also not even sure what you were asking me about the jackknive and cobra manuv? were you talkin about the f-22a losing its wings??? never heard of this? Heard of an F-22A able to do the same tricks, otherwise post me a website and ill take a look.



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
Wow Zaphod he did miss quote me. What am i lying? He added words to my quote. He added this exactly

"An advantage of 5 seconds on a graph which in my opinion doesn't have an accurate curve for the"

Never said that on any of my posts.

I don't recall him posting that in your quote either, and if he did, it was probably because he put the BB coding in the wrong spot, that happens, I know I did and I had to edit that. And one of those errors does not mean that the rest he quoted wasn't what you said.

By the way, I'm just curious as to how speed makes a missile more manueverable and accurate? I know that there's a certain range of speed that a missile is accurate at, but I don't think it's at Mach 2, Mach 3+, at those speeds, the smallest calculation change in path might make the missile miss it's target.

Wait, why should I post a backing for my argument if I haven't seen a backing for yours? And what does you owning a benz have to do with anything?

You misunderstood my post too, it's obvious, but it's ok, because I'm not arguing anymore. I'll jump in if there's an obvious error that needs to be corrected, such as a fact that a simple google search will yield correct or wrong. Other than that, not debating.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by phsyco
not true.the 37 can fire missiles backwards.so radar see piolet do

That idea never saw the light of day. You will not see it on any of Sukhoi's fighters.



posted on Sep, 14 2006 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by JFrazier

Originally posted by phsyco
not true.the 37 can fire missiles backwards.so radar see piolet do

That idea never saw the light of day. You will not see it on any of Sukhoi's fighters.

Except those with Rear-mounted Radar, which is on almost all of the more advanced Su-27 variants.

Shattered OUT...



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