The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

Originally posted by JFrazier
Kilcoo, do you know why Sukhoi engineers decided to use canards on some of the Flankers? I heard something about the Su-35 not needing them because its FCS was improved or something like that...

Yeap, if you have a reduced/negative static margin, then the moment provided by the tailplanes to pitch the aircraft nose-up is increased. If the static margin is zero (over the AoA range) then the tailplanes should retain good control authority throughout the flight regime.


Therefore, canards can be ditched (along with the associated disadvantages) and a simpler more conventional layout used while providing the same controllability.


A zero static margin can be harder on a FCS though, as the aircraft will tend to deviate in both directions, so improving the FCS will allow use of zero static margin.

A negative static margin requires the computer to act in one direction mainly, producing enough lift from the tailplanes to keep the nose down (well, level), while the speed of reaction is important, the algorithms etc for a consistent divergence are well, easier for engineers to get right.

But the Su-35 has canards anyways..
so..

[edit on 11-9-2006 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
But the Su-35 has canards anyways..
so..

[edit on 11-9-2006 by Daedalus3]

The OVT doesn't and if anything is more manouverable than any of the flanker series.


Horses for courses, either they didn't want another control redesign and stuck with the tri-plane for continuity. Or more likely, they couldn't ensure consistent aerodynamic centre location throughout the flight envelope, and needed the canards as a safety measure [especially if the TVC was to go offline].

-Daedalus3 im not suprised to here that 6 F-16 s couldnt track down a F-22 and why should i be. Are you assumin that 6 F-16C make up one super radar????? The F-22 is more amazing then we even speak just as the F-15 was. I wouldnt be surprised when a F-22 shoots down 5 Typhoons or 6 or 7 or EVEN 10! The F-22 is a dedly platform, especially in numbers.

-The standard situation or config i was talking about is its standard A2A config being > 2 sidewinders and 4 aim-120. Also same avioncs it uses for A2A roles. No real mystery there really > just common sense.

-Yes every country is stting back and takin a boot in the behind because they cant fight stealth. Thats it! No Indian, Chinese or even Russians have anything up their sleves. Theres no counter to Stealth, doubt there ever will be. You either have it or dont THE END

-Yea i compared the F-15C AESA to the NO11M ESA and still the F-15C is better. It goes like this No1 radar going to F-22 2nd F-35 3rd F-15c >>>> clearly stated on GRAPH.

The Russian Radar is -NO-11M pulse Doppler phased array radar-
The F-15C is -APG-63(V)2 Active Electronically Scanned Array-
But hey wheres the -APG-63(V)3 on that list?

FYI Just because you have AESA doesnt mean your Radar range improves. Its a major improvement in tracking, guiding etc. The Range is only increases depending how much money your willing to spend and obviously how smart your scientists are.

-Theres no way a F-22A is getting tracked by a SU-30. How are you reading the chart? If our F-15, F-16 and F-18 cant even track so wont the SU-30 s. I can tell you that the F-22A will get so close that it can use its Sidewinders on those damm SU-30 and go home for a nice MILLER.

-Only way Russia is going to be in the Same Ball game is if they come out wit a SU-37/47 and this will only compare to the Europeans. If they wanna compare to the Americans they need the PAK-FA. WHICH then again will only compare to a F-35. So Russia lost, Figuring they are our allies now (chicken Sh@TZ).

5th

1. F-22
2. F-35
3. Typhoon
4. Raf
5. F-15

Oldies

1. F-15
2. SU-35
3. F/A-18E
4. F-16AM
5. MIG-29

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
-Daedalus3 im not suprised to here that 6 F-16 s couldnt track down a F-22 and why should i be. Are you assumin that 6 F-16C make up one super radar????? The F-22 is more amazing then we even speak just as the F-15 was. I wouldnt be surprised when a F-22 shoots down 5 Typhoons or 6 or 7 or EVEN 10! The F-22 is a dedly platform, especially in numbers.

-The standard situation or config i was talking about is its standard A2A config being > 2 sidewinders and 4 aim-120. Also same avioncs it uses for A2A roles. No real mystery there really > just common sense.

-Yes every country is stting back and takin a boot in the behind because they cant fight stealth. Thats it! No Indian, Chinese or even Russians have anything up their sleves. Theres no counter to Stealth, doubt there ever will be. You either have it or dont THE END

(back again)by the way f-22 doesnt seem to win against a su-37 in russia.and by the way the raptor is seen by the su's.and the super rader is carried by the mig-31 foxhound.look at this i found it in a chat room.
in long range combat W/ high-tech missles, the f-22 would win, but in an actual dogfight, the su-37 would rip the f-22 apart hands down, in dogfighting, manuverability is key, fifty missles doesnt make a difference ifthe plane cant get a bead on the other aircraft, in dogfighting, the su-37 would only use guns and win, if you do a video on the su-37, you would be suprised, even american engineers are trying to find out how any russain aircraft does what it can do.One of test pilot of Su-37 ask a fight one to one over Atlantic against any other aircraft. Nobody answer. Where was F-15, F-16,F-18, Typhoon, Gripen, Mirage, Harrier, F-22, F-23, F-35? Right, was some years ago.
Su-34 entered in production and had RCS like a missile at low flight, but maneuverability don't suffer. Maybe use plasma generator from Keldish NIT.
A lot of you keep on making some quite interesting assumptions here. For example you're assuming that Russian aircraft are only good in dogfights and that Su radars have similar capabilities to F-15's. Here is some corrected info on both accounts:
The Mig-31 had the most advanced radar in the world from its introduction in service in 1975 to 2005 when the F-22A's AESA radar took the cake. The Mig-31's radar is STILL the longest range radar but cannot handle as many simultaneous tasks and doesn't have as low a probability of intercept. The USA did not even come close to comparison with the Phased Array radar of the Mig-31 until it equipped F-22's with AESA radars.

Modern Su's use Phased Array radars comparative in range to AESA radars . but of course comparative in technology to the Mig-31's radar. This includes the Su-27M, Su-35, Su-37 and Su-30MK series among others. These radars are far more advanced then anything else fielded in the USA asides from the F-22 radar. They can track and fire at multiple targets, have a low probability of intercept and have a passive mode which allows them to detect aircraft without even emitting a search beam.

This is a large part of their natural advantage in BVR combat. Their radar means they are likely to detect the opponent first and get the jump on them (when applied to an aircraft like the F-15). The F-15 will likely only be aware of missiles homing at the final stages of their attack (last 10km).


-Yea i compared the F-15C AESA to the NO11M ESA and still the F-15C is better. It goes like this No1 radar going to F-22 2nd F-35 3rd F-15c >>>> clearly stated on GRAPH.

The Russian Radar is -NO-11M pulse Doppler phased array radar-
The F-15C is -APG-63(V)2 Active Electronically Scanned Array-
But hey wheres the -APG-63(V)3 on that list?

FYI Just because you have AESA doesnt mean your Radar range improves. Its a major improvement in tracking, guiding etc. The Range is only increases depending how much money your willing to spend and obviously how smart your scientists are.

-There
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mod Edit - tried to fix quote (not sure)


[edit on 12-9-2006 by masqua]

by the way heres some more.
Onto missiles, the other major factor in BVR combat. The R-77, R-77m and R-77pv are at least equal in performance to the US AMRAAM-C. The M and PV variants outrange the AMRAAM-C and all 3 variants are more maneouverable, while possibly suffering a higher drag penalty when turning. So in effect Russia is equal or ahead of the USA in missile technology. This is of course ignoring US missiles that are not in service.

As for WVR combat . the Su-27's gun was not designed to be its principle weapon in a dogfight. The R-73 missile on its inception was 20 years ahead of any dogfighting missile the West had produced. Its abilities are as follows:
-it is aimed using a helmet mounted sight
-it can be fired at any target up to 60 degrees in front and behind the aircraft
-it is considered impossible to evade
This is the reason why the Russians were happy to design aircraft that could sacrifice massive amounts of inertia for an angle of attack. In modern WVR combat those who get the first shot off win 99% of the time. Therefore, while a US aircraft prior to the F-22A has to get behind its opponent to get a lock the Su-27 and Mig-29 series can fire at anything they can look at. Using their maneouvreability they can turn much more rapidly then their opponents and even fire at a chasing opponent before the tail gets a lock.

As for a comparison between the F-22A and the F-15 . most of the reason for the sheer cost of the F-22A, asides from the bloated US arms industry is the amount of catching up they had to do. Additionally they could not justify an Su-27 competitor so they essentially had to build a better aircraft. The way they achieve this is through only 3 factors:
-low observable technology
-AESA radar
-Super Cruise

On all other aspects they come close to the Su-27 series or equal it. In WVR the Su-27 series can still fire first in the majority of circumstances but BVR is much more likely. In this instance the Su-27 series can only 'return fire' in most instances as the F-22A should theoretically be able to remain hidden until it chooses to fire. That said, there is every chance the Russian radar is capable enough to detect the presence of an AESA and even the location of it. That is essentially a guessing game that even the Russians and US are playing.

So yeah . the F-22A is great but a highly upgraded Su-27 series aircraft is 2nd best in the world and therefore not that far behind. In a pure one on one engagement with no external support for either side the F-22A would probably come out on top 80% of the time. However, unlike with the F-15 which lost dismally 8-1 a 2-1 engagement would mean a 40% chance of a win for the F-22A, a dramatic reduction from the one on one engagement.

So process all this information and then think about the economic factors involved. A late model Su-30MKI, the best Su-27 series aircraft in service today, costs $35 million and an F-22A is now costing over $400 million after yet another price inflation. China, which is buying an aircraft similar to the Su-30MKI (Su-30MKK) has a large defence acquisitions budget and is essentially getting a capability that will work against the USA's last Air Force gamble.

Yeah . the F-22A's the better aircraft but if it were to come to a major war between the big players in 10 years time it would be hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned.

i got them all in a chat room.and guess what all tis might be true.(and im not going to start post war 2)now what do you say?su-37 is ignored because this might be an american site.i checked a russian site and thats what i found.
once again.Check!!!
my country doesnt have an airforce ghotbr55.guess wich country!!

Originally posted by phsyco
in long range combat W/ high-tech missles, the f-22 would win, but in an actual dogfight, the su-37 would rip the f-22 apart hands down, in dogfighting, manuverability is key, fifty missles doesnt make a difference ifthe plane cant get a bead on the other aircraft, in dogfighting, the su-37 would only use guns and win, if you do a video on the su-37, you would be suprised, even american engineers are trying to find out how any russain aircraft does what it can do.One of test pilot of Su-37 ask a fight one to one over Atlantic against any other aircraft. Nobody answer. Where was F-15, F-16,F-18, Typhoon, Gripen, Mirage, Harrier, F-22, F-23, F-35? Right, was some years ago.

Why would the US risk a crash in their newest, most expensive fighter in a trivial dogfight? That makes no sense. And yes, the F-22 has already done moves comparable to the Su-37's. The F-22 also has a gun just like the Su-37, what happens now?

Is their any evidence that the Su-37 would rip the F-22 apart in a dogfight? No. If anything the F-22 would win because of its much greater energy advantage.

The Mig-31 had the most advanced radar in the world from its introduction in service in 1975 to 2005 when the F-22A's AESA radar took the cake. The Mig-31's radar is STILL the longest range radar but cannot handle as many simultaneous tasks and doesn't have as low a probability of intercept. The USA did not even come close to comparison with the Phased Array radar of the Mig-31 until it equipped F-22's with AESA radars.Modern Su's use Phased Array radars comparative in range to AESA radars . but of course comparative in technology to the Mig-31's radar. This includes the Su-27M, Su-35, Su-37 and Su-30MK series among others. These radars are far more advanced then anything else fielded in the USA asides from the F-22 radar.

America had no need for a super long-range radar in a fighter. We already have AWACS monitioring the battlefield. The AESA in the MiG-31 is no where near the APG-77. Russia right now only has PESA radars in the Flanker which are not comparable to American AESA radars in capability or versatility.


[edit on 12-9-2006 by JFrazier]

Originally posted by phsyco
As for a comparison between the F-22A and the F-15 . most of the reason for the sheer cost of the F-22A, asides from the bloated US arms industry is the amount of catching up they had to do. Additionally they could not justify an Su-27 competitor so they essentially had to build a better aircraft. The way they achieve this is through only 3 factors:
-low observable technology
-AESA radar
-Super Cruise

What catching up did they have to do? The F-15 has always had the superior avionics and mission up-times. The Su-27 was only better in maneuverability and accleration and even those can be overcome by a good pilot. The basic Su-27 is not superior to the F-15 in most air to air instances.

On all other aspects they come close to the Su-27 series or equal it. In WVR the Su-27 series can still fire first in the majority of circumstances but BVR is much more likely. In this instance the Su-27 series can only 'return fire' in most instances as the F-22A should theoretically be able to remain hidden until it chooses to fire. That said, there is every chance the Russian radar is capable enough to detect the presence of an AESA and even the location of it.

How are you going to detect an LPI AESA radar? The F-15, F-16, and even the Super Hornet cannot detect it. The Su-27 will not be firing first because it cannot see the F-22 in close or long range. The Raptor will put holes in the Flanker before they knew what hit him. That's what it was designed to do.

So process all this information and then think about the economic factors involved. A late model Su-30MKI, the best Su-27 series aircraft in service today, costs $35 million and an F-22A is now costing over $400 million after yet another price inflation.

Wrong again. Where are these people getting this information? The fly-away cost for th F-22 is around $120 million. I will bet money that the USAF gets their 250-300 Raptors eventually.

Yeah . the F-22A's the better aircraft but if it were to come to a major war between the big players in 10 years time it would be hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned.

Versus what? The F-22 is a force multiplier. We will still have over 500 F-15Cs and 180+ F-22 in the next 10 years. Hardly outnumbered or outgunned.


Psycho, the people in your chatroom need to do some research plain and simple. They are basing their facts off of nothing.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by JFrazier]

No Flanker be it Su-30MKI, Su-37, or Su-35 will be able to see the Raptor plain and simple. They will not be able to detect an LPI radar. In a dogfight they will be fairly equal as the F-22 and TVC Flankers each have their advantages. Russian missiles not superior to American missiles in every situation. Maybe in pure performance but that is not everything when it comes to missile technology.

The F-22 is on a totally different level than any Flanker. It's electronics are magnitudes more advanced. It is faster and can sustain speed for much longer. They are answers to the F-15 and that's it. There is reason why it is so expensive. The USAF has prepared it for almost every threat to come in the next 20-30 years.

Basic motto: You can't hit what you can't see.

FlyMiG.com is not a place of reliable information Psycho especially for information about the F-22.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by JFrazier]

[Mod Edit - personal attack)

-You said by the way a F-22A doesnt seem to win against a SU-37??? What Fu@kin proof do you have of this? SU-37 has been a test bed for Superior Manuv. Dont even see the improvement it has in combat.

-Howd you figure a SU can track a F-22A but for some reason a F-15 cant???? What bold statements are you putting out there?

-You are actually makin up info > when were Americans tryin to figure out how the Russians make Such good Manuv A/C??? We dont go for dogfighting A/C but Powerful, Hi-tech, BVR and stealthy A/C(even more). Thats all it is. We never tried to match the Russian in Manuv, we stoped when A/C like F-4 came out.

-An F-22A can perform all tricks russians have done and + other stunning things like its climb rate. But the F-22A does it with Stealth and a very unstable platform (+ more).

-MIG-31 is a long range platform takin out planes like B-1b bombers and etc, Also never heard of the Radar on a Old MIG-31 being this so called "SUPER RADAR" and the plane Consumes so much fuel its worth less for anything outside Air defense.

- Who told you that all the SU and MIGS usein the same RADAR>>>!!!! Are you serious?? First of the best Russian Radar is on its SU-30/35 the NO11m which is NOT better than the F-15 radars if you just clearly look on the Chart posted a couple of posts ago.

- Anyone in there right mind can tell you that a F-15C will target a SU-30/35 first and fire a missle before the SU himself can.

- Dont use my words without using this Quotating and stating that i said it.

- Here ill justify why a F-15 is better than a SU-27/35.
1. Radar
2. Faster Aircraft
3. More Combat Radius
4. BVR monster
5. Perfect AIR to AIR record.
6. Avoinics BETTER!
7. Probably more somone whos more Experienced can tell you.

Only clear advantage a Suk- hoi has is its WVR.

The making of the F-22A wasnt because we were behind, It was because we werent ahead enough.

Its like compaing a AK-47 with a M-16A2 >
But not for the econmic leading countries.

And clearly Physco you dont know what your talkin about, (Mod Edit - personal attack)

FLYMIG.COM SUCKZZ!!!!







[edit on 12-9-2006 by GhosTBR55]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mod Edit - removed personal attacks (2)

From the T&C's
2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.









[edit on 12-9-2006 by masqua]

so sorry admins dont understand how this happened

[edit on 12-9-2006 by GhosTBR55]

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
-Daedalus3 im not suprised to here that 6 F-16 s couldnt track down a F-22 and why should i be. Are you assumin that 6 F-16C make up one super radar?????
The F-22 is more amazing then we even speak just as the F-15 was. I wouldnt be surprised when a F-22 shoots down 5 Typhoons or 6 or 7 or EVEN 10! The F-22 is a dedly platform, especially in numbers.

Sounds like you've flown it?
Super Radar? How old are you? You obviously must realise that one F-16 flying with one radar would be not as efficient as 2 (forget 6) in terms of sight cones. Super Radar? Not really.. But if you can share data feeds w/o even involving an AWACS, then you sure as hell have a better all round radar visibility.
Not only is this the basics of tactical formation flight, its common sense.

Ten typhoons to an F-22A.
6 with AMRAAMS, 2 with Sidewinders and the remaining two?
GUNS!!! yes guns.. 2 typhoons gunned down.

-The standard situation or config i was talking about is its standard A2A config being > 2 sidewinders and 4 aim-120. Also same avioncs it uses for A2A roles. No real mystery there really > just common sense.

Right.. So is that a CAS or interception scenario? Or is that deep interdiction scenario?
Actually I'd like you to give a source to that 4 Aim120/2 sidewinders config for this 6:1 showdown.
Can you now?
Obviously I wasn't referring to different avionics suites, I was referring to the radar used.
You really don't know what you're talking about do you?
Anyways I wan't asking you in particular so why are you even bothering to answer?!!

-Yes every country is stting back and takin a boot in the behind because they cant fight stealth. Thats it! No Indian, Chinese or even Russians have anything up their sleves. Theres no counter to Stealth, doubt there ever will be. You either have it or dont THE END

How old are you again?
Anyways its your opinion and you're free to bask in it.

-Yea i compared the F-15C AESA to the NO11M ESA and still the F-15C is better. It goes like this No1 radar going to F-22 2nd F-35 3rd F-15c >>>> clearly stated on GRAPH.
The Russian Radar is -NO-11M pulse Doppler phased array radar-
The F-15C is -APG-63(V)2 Active Electronically Scanned Array-
But hey wheres the -APG-63(V)3 on that list?

I don't know where it is..
The difference between the F15C AESA and the N011M is 5km at 140 nm max.
As I stated BEFORE in my PREVIOUS posts, this results to a buffer of a few (less than 5) seconds in chase mode(and obviously the RWR have different strengths so we shouldn't consider chase mode at all) and and not more than a couple seconds head-on at near mach speeds. So if you're just going to be trigger happy Quick Draw McGraw then yes, you'll get the first shot off but if your N011M opponent's just as trigger-happy then your missiles will just cross each other and if both don't score its down to WVR in a under a minute.
Right... WVR; F15-C and a Su30+..
Still extremely confident?

FYI Just because you have AESA doesnt mean your Radar range improves. Its a major improvement in tracking, guiding etc. The Range is only increases depending how much money your willing to spend and obviously how smart your scientists are.

Right.. and your point is?
'My scientists smarter than yours'..?
I know what AESA is and am well aware of its publicised capabilities.
We could compare those capabilities as well but here its about who gets how of a time buffer.
The N011M is not some radar that can be shrugged off as 'not AESA' and hence 'not comparable'.

-Theres no way a F-22A is getting tracked by a SU-30. How are you reading the chart? If our F-15, F-16 and F-18 cant even track so wont the SU-30 s. I can tell you that the F-22A will get so close that it can use its Sidewinders on those damm SU-30 and go home for a nice MILLER.

Ok..whatever..
You never read what I said anyways..
I was explicitly talking about the 5 Su30+s vs. 1 F-22A, and so forth.
Nobody ever compared the two a/c on a one-on-one basis.
Why are you even here is you're so freakin hyper-confident about the F-22?
Preaching?sorry.. We know the F-22 as well as you do, and don't just consume those kill ratios w/o wanting to know more.

-Only way Russia is going to be in the Same Ball game is if they come out wit a SU-37/47 and this will only compare to the Europeans. If they wanna compare to the Americans they need the PAK-FA. WHICH then again will only compare to a F-35. So Russia lost, Figuring they are our allies now (chicken Sh@TZ).

BRAVO!!!

Originally posted by JFrazier
No Flanker be it Su-30MKI, Su-37, or Su-35 will be able to see the Raptor plain and simple. They will not be able to detect an LPI radar.

At any range?(Assumming that the Su whatevers don't ALL get shot down at BVR)
Maybe you shouldn't be sharing such vital information(if completely true) in open fora
Are just talking about detecting LPI radars or are we talking about RCS as well?

In a dogfight they will be fairly equal as the F-22 and TVC Flankers each have their advantages.

Except for the incredible climb rate(which I can't find credible sources to..help?),and a super chin-control surface(on which I have yet to receive further info on), I don't see how the F22-A can maintain yaw/bank rates equivalent to a AL-31FP TVC assisted with canards.
Having said that though,I am contented to conclude that the a/c are 'comparable' at WVR on a 1-to-1 basis. Nobody should probe deeper than that anyways.

Russian missiles not superior to American missiles in every situation. Maybe in pure performance but that is not everything when it comes to missile technology.

True..again 'comparable/equivalent' is the key-word here. Beyond that its impossible to judge a winner from a desktop.

The F-22 is on a totally different level than any Flanker. It's electronics are magnitudes more advanced. It is faster and can sustain speed for much longer. They are answers to the F-15 and that's it. There is reason why it is so expensive. The USAF has prepared it for almost every threat to come in the next 20-30 years.

Faster in terms of climb rate and supercruise right? Top speeds at S/L are comparable and I still need that rate of climb.
Electronics, yes of course.. but the Su-30s with various countries don't run on suites ONLY provided by Russia. IAF Su30s have laods of Israeli/French stuff esp since they maybe configured to fire the Derby and/or Magic Matra. Still the F-22A avionics suite is the best buy there is. No doubts..there never were.



[edit on 12-9-2006 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
- Here ill justify why a F-15 is better than a SU-27/35.
1. Radar
2. Faster Aircraft
3. More Combat Radius
4. BVR monster
5. Perfect AIR to AIR record.
6. Avoinics BETTER!
7. Probably more somone whos more Experienced can tell you.

1. And how? Not better by a long shot. Comparable yes.
2. Faster? top speeds: yes ,but rate of climb?
3. More combat radius? how? Care to share figures?
4. BVR monster? with the AIM-120C on the AESA? As compared to the R-77 on the N011M?
5. Yeah most Su 27+ a/c don't HAVE an A2A record.
6.AVIONICS better?! Gosh you sound like a Military press release from the Iranian State media!!
Are you sure you don't coin those Iraqi-Information-Minister-type one liners for them?
7. Like who? A F-15C pilot who's flown against Su30s or vice versa??!
hmm..Actually a good point..I'll get mine and you get yours?
They're stationed at Elemdorf AFB? Hope you stay nearby!

Its like compaing a AK-47 with a M-16A2 >
But not for the econmic leading countries.

Oh my! We should talk about this elsewhere!!
Want to know the 'Kill Ratio' of the AK-47??

Can someone (else) please get back to the 6:1 F-16 vs. F-22 thing?
Would really like to know more on that..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
At any range?(Assumming that the Su whatevers don't ALL get shot down at BVR)
Maybe you shouldn't be sharing such vital information(if completely true) in open fora

Are just talking about detecting LPI radars or are we talking about RCS as well?

I'm talking RCS and avionics. By the time the Flanker finds the Raptor it's too late. Remember, the battle will rarely ever be 1v1.

Except for the incredible climb rate(which I can't find credible sources to..help?),and a super chin-control surface(on which I have yet to receive further info on), I don't see how the F22-A can maintain yaw/bank rates equivalent to a AL-31FP TVC assisted with canards.

It's not really a chin control surface I guess I'm explaining it wrong. As explained by person on another forum:
*In terms of aerodynamics, the F22 does have a triplane like aerodynamics, except that the forward fuselage strake is aerodynamically more efficient than an explicit canard as found in the Su27 triplane derivatives.

*The aeroelasticity of the F22 takes into account the thrust vectoring requirements, making this the first and ONLY operational fighter plane out there designed with TVC in mind, instead of just add ons.

*The F22 is a more unstable aircraft than the Su27. Logically, what limits the ability to fly something more unstable is ultimately limited to the update rates of the flight computer. We all know where that's going.

And as kilcoo explained above, canards aren't really needed with a few tweaks. You can engineer a traditional fighter(Fulcrum, Eagle etc.) to fly just as well without them.

Faster in terms of climb rate and supercruise right? Top speeds at S/L are comparable and I still need that rate of climb.

Yes and you won't find that rate of climb anytime soon. All the pilots have told us is that it's best rate of climb straight off the deck. No other fighter including the Streak Eagle and P-42 has this ability. One pilot has mentioned that engineers in the test program found that he broke every time to climb in his weight class in one flight. This was in a full combat ready plane too.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by JFrazier]

Originally posted by JFrazier

Why would the US risk a crash in their newest, most expensive fighter in a trivial dogfight? That makes no sense. And yes, the F-22 has already done moves comparable to the Su-37's. The F-22 also has a gun just like the Su-37, what happens now?
[edit on 12-9-2006 by JFrazier]

by the way i dont think they meant it with missiles or guns.just get a bulls eye or aim it perfectly with the gun.no armaments.now why didnt they check there raptor in a test dogfight.check out utubes videdos.and then see how the 37 flies.and tell me where i can find a raptor fly.:rollno foffense(again)show me)

Obviously the F22 is better than any other jet. However, it also costs 5 times as much as any other jet, AND the F22 will almost never be in combat with a Eurofighter or Su-37.

My question is, why?

[edit on 13-9-2006 by PisTonZOR]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Ten typhoons to an F-22A.
6 with AMRAAMS, 2 with Sidewinders and the remaining two?
GUNS!!! yes guns..

2 typhoons gunned down.

. we should make a thread for these comments

Obviously the F22 is better than any other jet. However, it also costs 5 times as much as any other jet...

No it does not, that is one of the biggest myths of the F-22 program, it currently costs 130 million (probably less) and the price goes down with every buy, when the USAF gets their 183 the F-22 will only costs 117 million. The Typhoons that Austria bought in 2003 cost 80 million each and the latest flankers are going for 50 plus million.

[edit on 13-9-2006 by WestPoint23]