The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
Ok i have one question. From all this info you pointed out. Are you saying that an SU-30 is better than a Typhoon because what you state a SU-30 is clearly just as powerful if not more because it has the WVR Superiorty? So the SU-37 will be better than the Typhoon? Thats what your info is stating. I could only agree with the WVR statement but i still feel its not better than a TYPHOON , RAF and a JSF.

In terms of air superiority I think that they are about equal with the Typhoon having the slight lead. It's avionics are on a totally different level from that of the Su-30. BVR it will probably have the advantage especially since the Flanker blows up like a bomb on radar. WVR it would be close. The Eurofighter is very, very quick on its feet. It's probably is more unstable the Flanker and Raptor and will probably change direction quicker than both. The Su-30 is just in its element though.




[edit on 7-9-2006 by JFrazier]

Originally posted by JFrazier

I don't want to get into the whole thing but basically the chine on the nose of the F-22 acts like a virtual surface. It has no need for canards. The F-22's FBW system couples all contol surfaces in a way no other fighters does. It can do the Cobra, high alpha loops, helipcopters, etc. A Raptor squadron commander says that he has no problems doing Russian manuevers.

Lets keep those manuevers like the cobra, mongoose, alpha, helicopter at the airshows. The extra manueverability offered by 3D TVC and canards has real combat purpose of course and their real use comes in the modification of text book combat manuevers. Any maneuver that bleeds off too much energy is stupidity in combat.
I'm intrigued about this 'chin' on the F-22 nose acting as a control surface esp since its not a 'surface-that-can-be-controlled', where as a canard has definite movement 1(2 if it can be moved back and forth) plane.
I request you to 'get into this' as I always thought that 'chin' was a stealth feature or something to house the APG 77 or a combination of both.

Also, those rudders are huge for a reason. The F-22 has exceeded a 30 degrees/sec yaw rate.

At what forward velocities?!!
The rudders on the Su-30 aren't miniscule either and they yaw rate is further enhanced by a TVC nozzle yaw swathe of 30(or 15, I forget) degrees.

Well I have seen the F-22 and yes it climbs like no other. As many in the F-22 program have said, "It's just the tip of the iceburg."

Yes the F-22 sure can climb.
The Su-30 has publicised climb rates of 14km/minute(~230 m/s) at Sea level (empty load, I presmue and don't know if it is with TVC assist).


5 Flankers (Su 30s?) vs. one F-22 doesn't result in 5 roasted ducks(Maybe 4 flankers and one F-22 but thats still hard to believe!). Give me a scenario. What is the BVR AMRAAM payload for a F-22?

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
Ok i have one question. From all this info you pointed out. Are you saying that an SU-30 is better than a Typhoon because what you state a SU-30 is clearly just as powerful if not more because it has the WVR Superiorty? So the SU-37 will be better than the Typhoon? Thats what your info is stating. I could only agree with the WVR statement but i still feel its not better than a TYPHOON , RAF and a JSF.

I'm saying that the Su-30 is not inferior. Being 'better than the other' can only be said when differences are considerable (like the Raptor).
The Avionics suite on the Su-30 may not be very good when it comes off the assembly line, but we (Indians) have been tweaking it with French, Israeli and indigenous stuff for around 5 years now.

The Su-37 will never be better than the Typhoon because it will never be built. It was a TVC test bed and its tech was applied to operation la fighters like the Su-30 twin seater and the Su35 single seater.
See it all boils down to radar, missiles,engagement scenarios, and combat tactics at BVR. No other cockpit jazz and aesthetics will help here (Except data feed sharing with AWACS and other escort a/c).Compare those and you'll get a general idea. The Su-30 carries the R-77 and has the N-011M radar which is very powerful and its still passive. Hence Russian AESA is something to look forward too.
The MBDA Meteor is coming and so we'll see compatible AESA radars with that. Still whats the proposed range for the Meteor?
What I'm actually trying to say is that the Su-30 is not inferior to the Typhoon,JSF or Rafael(assuming thats what you meant by RAF) at BVR and surely not at WVR. Beyond that one can't(and shouldn't) really say.

5 Flankers (Su 30s?) vs. one F-22 doesn't result in 5 roasted ducks(Maybe 4 flankers and one F-22 but thats still hard to believe!). Give me a scenario. What is the BVR AMRAAM payload for a F-22?

I think it will, an F-22 carries 6 AMRAAM's and 2 Sidewinders in its A2A configuration. The F-22 squadron commander in question was quoted as saying in one exercise he killed SIX F-16's by himself all while the Raptor was transmitting it's position to ground control which then forwards it to the F-16's. Think about that for a minute, SIX F-16's by one F-22 while it had it's transponder on.

Also, do to the great SA it enjoys from it's stealth and avionics an F-22 can get to within Aim-9 range without being detected because it's going to position itself right on your 6.

Link

Well then that's really sad for those F-16s..
That's means he's getting (assuming?) a 100% kill ratio for all his AMRAAMs?
Or did he close in and take some out with AIM-9Xs? or were they AIM-9Ms?Can you carry six AMRAAMs and AIM-9s along with that?
What was the avionics suite and weapons loadout simulated on the F-16s?

The F-22 can definitely take out a couple of opponents of the Su-30 genre by firing salvo couplets at each target, but beyond that it will be difficult as the remaining a/c have a general idea of the situation and can execute a number of possible anti-stealth configurations taht we can be most assured are being honed in AFs around the world.
Were the F-16s flying to pre-desgined anti-stealth tactics or just flying to regular interceptor regimes.
The N011M , powerful as it is, can most defintely be used to effect the same with data feed being passed around the still standing a/c.
Also for a F-22 coming head on, it would be pretty difficult to avoid the detection on the N011M, and then get 'behind' the opponent a/c at ranges required to fire the AIM-9 (20km max?). At this range even your graphical chart shows that the N011M is capable of detecting RCS of under 0.001 sq meters (more in the range of 0.0001 sq meters). Also one needs to check the RWR capabilities of the Su-30s which vary from a/c with Russia, India and China.

tell you what.im in the early teens(13)and this would be the place where i say my real favorite plane is the berkut.terminator is my brother.i can get a lot more info.to have another post war.but tell you what.thats going to be when i get the info.ill post again in 5 days.see ya all till then.

Originally posted by JFrazier
I don't want to get into the whole thing but basically the chine on the nose of the F-22 acts like a virtual surface. It has no need for canards. The F-22's FBW system couples all contol surfaces in a way no other fighters does. It can do the Cobra, high alpha loops, helipcopters, etc. A Raptor squadron commander says that he has no problems doing Russian manuevers.
Also, those rudders are huge for a reason. The F-22 has exceeded a 30 degrees/sec yaw rate.
Well I have seen the F-22 and yes it climbs like no other. As many in the F-22 program have said, "It's just the tip of the iceberg."

The F-22 nose is the way it is for 2 reasons:

Low observables and lateral stability.


It doesn't add anything to the manouverability of the aircraft, apart from making it stable in yaw at extreme AoAs. It definitely doesn't add to the aircraft's pitch authority. I would say the MiG 1.44 [although now defunct] had probably the most advanced control system ever, combining 16 control surfaces into one autonomous flight control system.

Canards were not used for radar return reasons as far as I am aware, but I don't think handling suffered much with the inclusion of TVC.

Originally posted by GhosTBR55

DARKPRO
BTW F-22A will not be sold because its just to valuble to do something that stupid.

If the Americans don't want anyone playing with their toys, what is wrong with Russia selling theirs? The other platforms (Rafale, EF-2000) aren't quite ready to roll of the assembly line in droves, but Mikoyan-Gurevich and Sukhoi have theirs ready for production now. MiG 29 OVT, for example.

Canards were not used for radar return reasons as far as I am aware, but I don't think handling suffered much with the inclusion of TVC.

I don't think it suffered a whole lot either, but this brings to mind an interesting thought. What would the F-22 be like with canards mounted, say, a la Berkut, on the side of the intakes? Hmm.... I might think it looks a bit less ugly Just a bit.

The F-22 doesn't really need canards as those tailplanes provide enough pitch authority as they are. I would ventures to guess that the Flanker doesn't really need them either. The MiG-29OVT doesn't seem to mind not having them.

Kilcoo, do you know why Sukhoi engineers decided to use canards on some of the Flankers? I heard something about the Su-35 not needing them because its FCS was improved or something like that...

Originally posted by JFrazier
The F-22 doesn't really need canards as those tailplanes provide enough pitch authority as they are. I would ventures to guess that the Flanker doesn't really need them either. The MiG-29OVT doesn't seem to mind not having them.

Kilcoo, do you know why Sukhoi engineers decided to use canards on some of the Flankers? I heard something about the Su-35 not needing them because its FCS was improved or something like that...

What does FCS have to do with a plane's airflow?

The Su-35 would certaintly use the extra stability though, it is an unstable platform.

Shattered OUT...

That's means he's getting (assuming?) a 100% kill ratio for all his AMRAAMs? Or did he close in and take some out with AIM-9Xs? or were they AIM-9Ms?Can you carry six AMRAAMs and AIM-9s along with that?

The Raptor is not yet configured to carry the Aim-9X, and like I said it's standard load is 6 AMRAAM's in the central bay and 2 Winders in the side bays which means it will have 8 missiles ready to fire. And I don't know what he took them out with, but like I said SIX kills all by himself with a transponder on. Also don't feel too bad for the F-16's and their pilots, it's not just them, it does not matter if it's F-15"s or even Super Hornets the result are the same, even when they switch roles and let F-22 pilots fly against the Raptor.

F-22 can definitely take out a couple of opponents of the Su-30 genre by firing salvo couplets at each target, but beyond that it will be difficult as the remaining a/c have a general idea of the situation and can execute a number of possible anti-stealth configurations taht we can be most assured are being honed in AFs around the world. Were the F-16s flying to pre-desgined anti-stealth tactics or just flying to regular interceptor regimes.

Can you describe these "anti-stealth" tactics? Also You are not going to track an F-22 because it opens it bays and shoot's at you, hell you'd be lucky if you could even detect that. And if he positions himself outside your radar field of view then you are really screwed.

Also for a F-22 coming head on, it would be pretty difficult to avoid the detection on the N011M, and then get 'behind' the opponent a/c at ranges required to fire the AIM-9 (20km max?). At this range even your graphical chart shows that the N011M is capable of detecting RCS of under 0.001 sq meters (more in the range of 0.0001 sq meters). Also one needs to check the RWR capabilities of the Su-30s which vary from a/c with Russia, India and China.

I think the Aim-9 has a max range around 20NM but that's besides the point. You're restricted to 120 by 5-10 degrees, and you're basically pointing and hoping you see something, but on the other hand the F-22 knows exactly where you are and is not going to let you detect him, he can get in a good firing position without compromising his location. This is why SA matters so much, you can plan and execute while the other guy doesn't even know where you are or what you're doing.

One more thing, the AN/APG-77 is an LPI radar, US RWR can't detect it and so I doubt others will be able to.

[edit on 8-9-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by JFrazier
The F-22 doesn't really need canards as those tailplanes provide enough pitch authority as they are. I would ventures to guess that the Flanker doesn't really need them either.

Well, no, but personally if you want to make a "better" airframe than the Su-27 then canards+TVC might be the way to go. Which they did. That, and canards are sexy

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Well then that's really sad for those F-16s..
That's means he's getting (assuming?) a 100% kill ratio for all his AMRAAMs?
Or did he close in and take some out with AIM-9Xs? or were they AIM-9Ms?Can you carry six AMRAAMs and AIM-9s along with that?
What was the avionics suite and weapons loadout simulated on the F-16s?

The F-22 can definitely take out a couple of opponents of the Su-30 genre by firing salvo couplets at each target, but beyond that it will be difficult as the remaining a/c have a general idea of the situation and can execute a number of possible anti-stealth configurations taht we can be most assured are being honed in AFs around the world.
Were the F-16s flying to pre-desgined anti-stealth tactics or just flying to regular interceptor regimes.
The N011M , powerful as it is, can most defintely be used to effect the same with data feed being passed around the still standing a/c.
Also for a F-22 coming head on, it would be pretty difficult to avoid the detection on the N011M, and then get 'behind' the opponent a/c at ranges required to fire the AIM-9 (20km max?). At this range even your graphical chart shows that the N011M is capable of detecting RCS of under 0.001 sq meters (more in the range of 0.0001 sq meters). Also one needs to check the RWR capabilities of the Su-30s which vary from a/c with Russia, India and China.

Those are such ridiculus questions, and what your tring to prove is ridiculus.
-Its not sad for a F-22A to take down 6 F-16. This is a F-22A youre talkin about, this is expected. and yes of course the F-22A can carry aim-9 s with aim-120 under the bay. Matter of fact it can carry 2 AIM-9x and 6 AIM-120C.
-The avionics layout and combat config where standard for any situation.
-Dont act like the F-16 were at a disadvantage, actually had the advantage of having 6 F-16.
-What is this new Anti stealth config uve been yappin about? Never heard of it and never will happen. Its either you have stealth or not, thats the counter.
-What makes you think the Russian Radar is so powerful? The F-15C its self has a better radar.
-You gotta understand that chart more. Just because the Russian NO11m can target under .001 doesnt mean it will ever target a F-22A before being blown up and rendered dead.
-There was another scenario where a F-22A shot down 5 Typhoons. It was brought up here once before. Cant remeber anything about it jsut the numbers.
-Its been proven that a Typhoon can shoot down (BVR) 4 SU-35 before it being shoot down its self, F-15C 2 to 1 and a F-22A 10 to 1.
-I agree that the SU 30/35 arent inferior but there not in the ball game as a F-22A no matter what your trying to say. The SU 30/35 are still comparable to F-15 not to Typhoons and 22A s.

Originally posted by Darkpr0

If the Americans don't want anyone playing with their toys, what is wrong with Russia selling theirs? The other platforms (Rafale, EF-2000) aren't quite ready to roll of the assembly line in droves, but Mikoyan-Gurevich and Sukhoi have theirs ready for production now. MiG 29 OVT, for example.

Never said there was a problem with Russia selling their Fighters, So dont know what youre talkin about. I was answering your question > how many F-22As where sold and then i said > none because that would be stupid to sell something that valuble. FYI the need to create the F-35.



[edit on 9-9-2006 by GhosTBR55]

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
-There was another scenario where a F-22A shot down 5 Typhoons. It was brought up here once before. Cant remeber anything about it jsut the numbers.
-Its been proven that a Typhoon can shoot down (BVR) 4 SU-35 before it being shoot down its self, F-15C 2 to 1 and a F-22A 10 to 1.
-I agree that the SU 30/35 arent inferior but there not in the ball game as a F-22A no matter what your trying to say. The SU 30/35 are still comparable to F-15 not to Typhoons and 22A s.

There have been no reports of a Raptor shooting down 5 Typhoons. Those were 5 F-15Cs. Don't take the DERA study too seriously. A lot has changed since then and it is a little biased. I do agree with you saying that the Raptor and Typhoon are on a different level than the Eagles and Flankers.

Originally posted by JFrazier
There have been no reports of a Raptor shooting down 5 Typhoons. Those were 5 F-15Cs.

Nope 5 typhoons.

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Mod Edit - excessive quoting

please quote only the materil you are answering to



[edit on 11-9-2006 by masqua]

Ghost I also have not heard of this either, the rumors that Typhoons are training with Raptors were all but denied by Dozer so I don't see how they could of engaged in such a scenario. Unless you're referring to the DERA study witch as JFrazier pointed out should not be taken that seriously, many factors make these results inaccurate in terms of being specific about the capabilities of today's aircraft.

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
Nope 5 typhoons.

Find me a link. I seriously doubt that this encounter even happened as there have been reprts of only two Typhoons at Nellis. I have read not one report of an encounter with 5 Typhoons.

I heard this from here and no where else. So dont take my word for it. But i can see it happennig.
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Mod Edit - quadruple post

[edit on 10-9-2006 by masqua]

Top 5th Generation Fighters

1. F-22A
2. F-35
3. Typhoon
4. Raf
5. F-15C

Oldies

1. F-15C
2. SU-35
3. F/A-18E
4. F-16AM
5. MIG-29

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
ridiculus questions, and what your tring to prove is ridiculus.

huh?!! get a grip..

-Its not sad for a F-22A to take down 6 F-16. This is a F-22A youre talkin about, this is expected. and yes of course the F-22A can carry aim-9 s with aim-120 under the bay. Matter of fact it can carry 2 AIM-9x and 6 AIM-120C.

I was noting it from the point of view of the F-16s. Are you tryng to tell me that those F-16 pilots are all happy when they get shot down by the Raptor? Its not about proving how 'good' the Raptor is, esp. for them. They need to test the Raptor against the very best they can offer with the F-16.
Asking what config the F-16s were flying is a ridiculous question?
What loadouts were the flying to is a ridiculous question?
Are you just eating up the 5:1, 10: 20:1 kill figures meant for public mass consumption? Aren't you the least bit intrigued WHY those F-16s couldn't see the Raptor esp when they were flying 6 to 1? whyt they didn't/couldn't respond to the initial indications that a Raptor was taking them out?
6 F-16s not being able to challenge a Raptor is sad for any F-16 enthusiast and I happen to be one so deal with it.

-The avionics layout and combat config where standard for any situation.
-Dont act like the F-16 were at a disadvantage, actually had the advantage of having 6 F-16.

Who said they were at a disadvantage?
Standard? For any situation? Are you trying to tell me that an a/c (esp. the F-16) has a standard layout for deep interdiction, CAS, escort, interception etc..?

-What is this new Anti stealth config uve been yappin about? Never heard of it and never will happen. Its either you have stealth or not, thats the counter.

I'm not yappin about anything!
You think Air forces around the world will just sit around and wait for their geeks to devise a tehnological counter to stealth?
Maybe thats the general perception in the US, but I can ASSURE you that flight tactics, formations etc. etc.. are being developed to try and counter a stealth threat/intrusion using existing suites that are at operational status.
don't want to believe it? Don't..
Want proof?Don't have it and giving it off would defeat the very purpose of the counter.
You have a problem. You have blah blah blah capabilities and with those you've got to counter blah blah blah (say stealth). Are you going to wash your hands off and so 'no it can't be done'..?!
Not if you're capable for the job your superiors hired/inducted/trained you for. There's more classroom study in flying than you'd imagine.

-What makes you think the Russian Radar is so powerful? The F-15C its self has a better radar.

Really?The chart doesn't seem to think so. Compare the N011M Passive curve to the AESA on the F-15.

-You gotta understand that chart more. Just because the Russian NO11m can target under .001 doesnt mean it will ever target a F-22A before being blown up and rendered dead.

How did you read the chart?
So the F-22A will ALWAYS 'blow up' and 'render dead' a N011M platform at AIM-9 ranges?
I just stated what the N011M can see at those ranges in terms of RCS. If you know the RCS of the F-22A then you do the math. Nobody's implying anything.

-There was another scenario where a F-22A shot down 5 Typhoons. It was brought up here once before. Cant remeber anything about it jsut the numbers.
-Its been proven that a Typhoon can shoot down (BVR) 4 SU-35 before it being shoot down its self, F-15C 2 to 1 and a F-22A 10 to 1.

Frankly I'm sick of these fanboy kill ratios w/o knowing much more about how that particular scenario ran itself out. I mean what's the damn purpose of releasing these figures to the public other than raptor worship?
Also I don't know much of the Typhoon. Maybe the likes of Waynos could fill us in on that.

-I agree that the SU 30/35 arent inferior but there not in the ball game as a F-22A no matter what your trying to say. The SU 30/35 are still comparable to F-15 not to Typhoons and 22A s.

If you're not able to equate one Raptor to one Su30+ then they're not in the same ballgame anyways. I never contested that.
Anyways another issue here is using the F-22 and the Typhoon in the same context. Lets compare the Typhoon and the Su30s separately?
Its these 5:1,10:1 ratios that really interest me.