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The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

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posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 06:25 PM
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Anyone who says the F-35 is too heavy should remember that it can HOVER. That does imply a power to weight ratio above 1 ... making weight a low-level factor.

The F-14 has been retired.

the F-22 had GREAT potential, but is unproven and not available in mubers large enough to matter yet.

So ... my take is as follows:

1) Typhoon
1) tied ... Sukhoi Su-35/37
3) Rafale
4) Grippen
5) F-15 Eagle

I don't rate the F-18 in any form as the best at almost anything. The U.S.A. is flying it because a political decision was made, not because it is the best at anything, with the possible excpetion of sustained turn rate and fighting ability at low airspeeds. Last I heard, it could sustain 18° per second, which is pretty damned good if you ignore the thrust to weight ratio of the F-18.

It probably IS the best jet fighter if the speeds get slow. However, if the speeds get slow, the pilot has made basic mistakes and is in survival mode ... I wouldn't recommend slowing to 300 knots when threatened ...

When the F-22 gets into general service in numbers greater than 150 units, it will probably be at the top.

The F-35 is not in service anywhere at present, but it has enormous potential given the stealth and thrust to weight ratio, especially at air-to-air combat weights.

To me. the most underrated figher in the world is the SAAB Gripen. It has many VERY good qualities and is not an opponent to be taken lightly unless you enjoy ejection from the cockpit.

The F-15 Eagle is proven winner in all respects but is winding down its career and so is not really a modern contender. In my opinion, it is still formidable if flown by an experienced Eagle driver, but flawed enough to be either beaten or at least survivied if you are a good pilot in a modern aircraft.

By modern aircraft, I do NOT mean a Chinese J-7, I mean an F-22 Raptor, a Typhoon, a Gripen, or a Sukhoi 35/37 series aircraft.

As an honorable mention and possible contender for #5, a well-flown MiG-29 is no slouch and will kill you if you are not "on your game." It's just that most of the time, the MiG-29s the U.S.A. has encountered on maneuvers or in mock combat have NOT been well flown.

I think that if the two sides swapped aircraft and practiced for a few weeks, the results would be the same. That is, the better pilots would win, regardless of whether they were flying Eagles or MiG-29s.

In the case of the F-22 Raptor, the stealth, electronics, and digital situational awareness capabilities of the Raptor will almost ensure a kill. The plane can kill an opponent all by itself if the pilot wants to take a nap,and then return to base, land, and park. However, it IS still in the initial service stage with fewer than an effective force available at this time. Some of the eventual electronics still have not been installed yet.

I daresay the same can be said of the Typhoon series. theya re flying but still in need of some eventual capability retrofit.

India's LCA is a relative unknown. It is lightweight, but has suffered a PROTRACTED development taht means only 3 or 4 of them are now flying. They COULD be a good modern fighter, but I simply don't KNOW.

Any feedback on the LCA? Or the new Chengdu?

Cheers.

[edit on 3-7-2006 by GregPascal]




posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 07:34 PM
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Well, since there aren’t over 150 Typhoons in any given AF and since there are only a handful of Su-35’s and no Su-37’s in service, and since both of them are also "unproven" I daresay you've been rather unfair to the F-22. Especially when one considers that the 27th FS and 94th FS have already received and gone operational with the Raptor (each FS has around 24 units). Not to mention that more than 60 F-22’s have already been delivered to the USAF and have even flow their first missions. BTW out of personal curiosity what makes the Grippen a better fighter than the F/A-18E/F Block II?

[edit on 3-7-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Jul, 5 2006 @ 02:36 AM
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LCa . . ? ? ooh dont bother . . it is complte proto kind of aircraft . . . remember the HAL ppl @ india had their first take on making a fighter . . theyve never done it before . . . you cant expect that to pose a threat . . unless in huge numbers . . .



posted on Jul, 5 2006 @ 05:16 PM
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Im an American and I like the Eurofighter and the Rafale much better than the F-22 and JSF. Also I dont like the Hornet nor the Cobra helicopter. I dont like the Apache either. But I do like the Comanche.



posted on Jul, 5 2006 @ 08:27 PM
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Im just doing this to get it back into myATS b/c it got
deleted.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by urmomma158
The Raptor will have no problem with a Mig 29 or SU27/30 in WVR.
aimpoints.hq.af.mil...


Really, you should disclose this finding to the F-22 pilots. Why bother shooting them down beyond visual range when you can go in close and play chicken with the poor bastards, just like Tom Cruise, so much more fun for the fighter-jocks. The helpless Su & MiG pilots will probably be so scared at the sight of the Raptor that they will surely eject even before the F-22 opens fire
Good Luck, keep hunting those miggies.

I'm sure that's the same thinking the pilots of the 'best of the best of...' P-51 Mustang had in WWII. You can check how many kills Chuck Yaeger has. Then you go and check how many kills Hartman, Rahl, Baer, Molders, Marsei, Galland and the rest of the Luftwaffe A-list have with the 'inferior' Messerschmits and Focke-Wulfs. Many of the above flew mainly against the western allies so don't tell me the large number of victories came on the Russian front. For that matter, it might be enlightening if you check the Russian A-list-Fedorov, Kozhedub, Pokrishkin, Pepelyaev (Korea), who flew 'inferior' La, Yak, MiG planes


Sorry for answering a one sentence post with a one page post but I'm tired of yet another F-22 fanboy giving a link to an article describing how the F-22 was 'meant' to win BVR & WVR against anyone & anything.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:00 AM
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Don’t know about WVR as I’m not an expert on F-22 maneuvering characteristics but it does have TVC and it is said to be very maneuverable at low speeds. As for the other, well yes it was designed to achieve air superiority mainly through BVR, and it is the most capable fighter in the world when engaging from that distance.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 09:12 AM
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for how long . . . ? ? since the f22 comes out first . . the many ongoing projects like the pak-fa and chinese J-xx will be developed around the threat posed by the f22 . . .
im sure theyll incorporate systems providing BVR capabilities on par with the raptor . . .



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 09:27 AM
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You’re assuming a lot there, not only do we not know the full capabilities of the current F-22, and future upgrades but we don’t have anything more than design images for either the PAK-FA and or Chinese next generation fighter to go on. As such I would wait until they are built, tested, and flown before making such a claim, how long did it take for the F-15 to be eclipsed? Just because a certain aircraft is designed after a fighter already in service does not necessarily mean it will be "better".



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally psted by PazoReally, you should disclose this finding to the F-22 pilots. Why bother shooting them down beyond visual range when you can go in close and play chicken with the poor bastards, just like Tom Cruise, so much more fun for the fighter-jocks. The helpless Su & MiG pilots will probably be so scared at the sight of the Raptor that they will surely eject even before the F-22 opens fire Good Luck, keep hunting those miggies.

I'm sure that's the same thinking the pilots of the 'best of the best of...' P-51 Mustang had in WWII. You can check how many kills Chuck Yaeger has. Then you go and check how many kills Hartman, Rahl, Baer, Molders, Marsei, Galland and the rest of the Luftwaffe A-list have with the 'inferior' Messerschmits and Focke-Wulfs. Many of the above flew mainly against the western allies so don't tell me the large number of victories came on the Russian front. For that matter, it might be enlightening if you check the Russian A-list-Fedorov, Kozhedub, Pokrishkin, Pepelyaev (Korea), who flew 'inferior' La, Yak, MiG planes


Sorry for answering a one sentence post with a one page post but I'm tired of yet another F-22 fanboy giving a link to an article describing how the F-22 was 'meant' to win BVR & WVR against anyone & anything.
The Raptor does have superior maeuverability to an SU 27 or SU 30.

P.S. im no Rapor fanboy,simply pointing out a mistake someone else made.

[edit on 6-7-2006 by masqua]



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 05:58 PM
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I really do wonder, do we have the rights to say which fighters would be the best in the world? I spoke with one man who told me that he witnessed that F/A-18E pilot who flew against heavily experienced pilot on F-22 and Super Hornet won the fight. That made me feels like that it have to be depend on with jets behind the hands of the pilots who would fight with heart and determination. I would say Russian test pilot, Viktor Pugachev, is the best in the world. He is the one who push Su-27 beyond the impossible limits. We should let pilots do all the show instead of jets. I have love for the fighter jets too. My top two favorites would be F-22 Raptors and Su-47 Berkut. I have to say, watch out for new fighter coming out of Russia's drawing board based on Su-47 but without forward swept wing. I would say that future fighter would be equalivent or better than F-22. Thanks for reading.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by OneMyrmidon
I really do wonder, do we have the rights to say which fighters would be the best in the world? I spoke with one man who told me that he witnessed that F/A-18E pilot who flew against heavily experienced pilot on F-22 and Super Hornet won the fight. That made me feels like that it have to be depend on with jets behind the hands of the pilots who would fight with heart and determination. I would say Russian test pilot, Viktor Pugachev, is the best in the world. He is the one who push Su-27 beyond the impossible limits. We should let pilots do all the show instead of jets. I have love for the fighter jets too. My top two favorites would be F-22 Raptors and Su-47 Berkut. I have to say, watch out for new fighter coming out of Russia's drawing board based on Su-47 but without forward swept wing. I would say that future fighter would be equalivent or better than F-22. Thanks for reading.
What F 18 vs F 22 fight are you talking about got any sources there to back up your statement. Russia can barely fund the PAK FA and let alone the SU 47. Russia is struggling at making a blended body stealth aircraft. They lack a strong microelectronics,software, and computer science industry like the united states,not to mention extreme quality control for their AC and funding.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by Pazo
I'm sure that's the same thinking the pilots of the 'best of the best of...' P-51 Mustang had in WWII. You can check how many kills Chuck Yaeger has. Then you go and check how many kills Hartman, Rahl, Baer, Molders, Marsei, Galland and the rest of the Luftwaffe A-list have with the 'inferior' Messerschmits and Focke-Wulfs. Many of the above flew mainly against the western allies so don't tell me the large number of victories came on the Russian front. For that matter, it might be enlightening if you check the Russian A-list-Fedorov, Kozhedub, Pokrishkin, Pepelyaev (Korea), who flew 'inferior' La, Yak, MiG planes


You're also comparing German pilots that flew in many cases the ENTIRE war, starting in Poland, to American pilots who flew a limited number of missions in their tour. Apples and Oranges.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 08:44 PM
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Yes, a Hornet DID win that fight. But he had to manuver into such an extreme low energy state that anyone else in the area would have gunned him down.

And for the record, no one is claiming that an F-22 will ALWAYS win a fight. Yes, some will get shot down, and some will lose fights. It's inevitable.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 09:47 PM
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Ah, the famous HUD images, as Zaphod pointed out the F-22 is not invincible, that being said however we don't know the rules and condition of that training exercise.



posted on Jul, 6 2006 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
You’re assuming a lot there, not only do we not know the full capabilities of the current F-22, and future upgrades but we don’t have anything more than design images for either the PAK-FA and or Chinese next generation fighter to go on. As such I would wait until they are built, tested, and flown before making such a claim, how long did it take for the F-15 to be eclipsed? Just because a certain aircraft is designed after a fighter already in service does not necessarily mean it will be "better".


i was just reffering to the stuff like sensors and radar systems . . ( which lend the f22 the awesome BVR capabilites) . . . no wonder you can can upgrade these things in the future . . . as for the better aircraft . . . the russians too have airframes which are more or less evenly matched with the f22 . . . i frankly think . . if the f22s radar and sensors are taken out of the equation . . . the sukhoi happens to be a better fighter (any day)



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 03:11 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Don’t know about WVR as I’m not an expert on F-22 maneuvering characteristics but it does have TVC and it is said to be very maneuverable at low speeds. As for the other, well yes it was designed to achieve air superiority mainly through BVR, and it is the most capable fighter in the world when engaging from that distance.


'IT IS SAID' to be very maneuverable? You can do better than that, surely. An F-16 is also maneuverable, does this make it the best. You have watched the Langley F-22 airshow, and you have probably watched Su 30MKI,35/37, MiG 29 OVT (TVC). It's all about low speed maneuvering. You are telling me the F-22 has a chance at low speeds against any of the above?
I haven't seen the Raptor at high speeds, so I can't say nothing about that, but at low speeds, claims like that uromma guy 'F-22 will have no problem...' you have to be a fanboy to say that.

I totally agree with you on the BVR capabilities of the Raptor, but WVR, it is far from being best of the best.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58

You're also comparing German pilots that flew in many cases the ENTIRE war, starting in Poland, to American pilots who flew a limited number of missions in their tour. Apples and Oranges.


You have a point there Zap, I know that, but let's take the ones that didn't fly the whole war- Molders, Marsei, there are far too many German super aces. If you devide the number of sorties to the kills you will see that the Germans still win ten laps ahead of the american boys. Same goes for the Russians, Fedorov was a test pilot who left the factory at his own will and went to the front in 1943. Has 126 kills (actually the Russians officially have Kozhedub as No 1, because Fedorov was a 'bad boy' and had trouble with the comissars)
An interesting fact: Hartmann has 324 kills but was shot down 16 times (all by Russians, but survived).
Fedorov has never been shot down, Pokrishkin neither if I'm not mistaken. Kozhedub was shot down only once.

What I'm saying is that according to Discovery Channel, P-51s won WWII, where in fact the total number of kills of the P-51 was insignifficant on the scale of the war. In fact american P-39 Cobras flown by russian pilots (Lend-Lease) have more kills than the Mustangs.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 03:56 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Just because a certain aircraft is designed after a fighter already in service does not necessarily mean it will be "better".


Appologies for posting 3 replies, just couldn't figure out how to quote three posts in one reply


I agree with you Westie, but if we turn to history, most of the times it is better.
We alsready established on this forum that the ruskies usually wait for the americans to draw first and then make their move. Let's have a look at how things have gone over the jet age.

P-80 answered by MiG-15 0:1 commies
F-86(actually still lagged the MiG-15) answered by MiG-17 0:2
F-100 vs MiG-19 0:3
F-102 vs Su-9/11 1:3
go USA
F-104 vs MiG-21 1:4 with KO

F-106 (one of my favourite US designs) VS Su 15 let's say draw
F-4 vs MiG-23 & MiG-25 this was not even fair 1:5
F-14 vs MiG-31 no comment 1:6
F-15 vs Su-27 1:7 (I haven't seen a viable argument on this one)
F-16, F/A-18 vs MiG-29 (MiG forfeits for lack of interest)

So, as debatable as the above might be, you see the point that there is not much chance (statistically) the new Russian fighter to be inferior to the F-22.
Of course, history not always repeats itself, really, surprizes happen. The newcommer might turn out to be a real POS



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 05:55 AM
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But surely your list is simplistic and flawed from the start?

The P-80 (and F-84) were contemporary with the MiG 9, whereas the F-86 and MiG 15 were contemporaries of each other in 1947. There was no time to design one in response to the other, in fact as late as 1950 the west didn't really know for certain what the MiG 15 even looked like, as well as wondering about the operational status of a whole host of similar fighters from Yakovlev and Lavochkin, so the F-86 CANNOT have been designed as a response to the MiG 15. Both the MiG 15 and the F-86 were adapted from existing straight wing designs to incorporate swept wing research taken from Germany at the end of the war and the development of neither one was related in any way to the other.



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