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The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

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posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 07:50 AM
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You can't teach a bird old tricks can ya?

Beautiful birds they may be, but as to their actual performance, well it's like playing in the special olympics, you may win the argument, but you're still retarded.

We haven't actually seen battle statistics come out, all we see are numbers and figures on the internet and paper and news articles about training excersises. Conditions in battle will always be different, only time will tell what is more superior.

Shattered OUT...




posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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Ok i was reading alot of forums and .com, .net and .org websites.

STRICTLY BVR ENGAGEMENTS

One website strictly created by the British military said the f-15c has a .8:1 k:d ratio against a SU-35. Meaning for every 1 f-15c that gets shot down .8 su-35 would get shot down. < alot of websites are claiming this is British propaganda for the the TYPHOON who claimed something like 8:1.

Now a whole bunch of Forums and US american simulators say for every 1 f15c, 2 SU-35 will get shot down and can even be higher with AWACS and AESA and the whole 9 yards.

So what does thie forum think???

.8:1

2:1

I think 2:1, i really want WAYNOS and WESTPOINTS opininon on this.


[edit on 18-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 02:23 PM
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I would think that the F-15C and Su-35 would be somewhat equal in a 1v1 BVR engagement. However, the amount of information the US military branches are able to collect and process is much greater than just about everyone else. This would aid the F-15C greatly especially combined with the AESA radar.

The Su-35 would have been tracked for a long time by AWACS.



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
Ok i was reading alot of forums and .com, .net and .org websites.

STRICTLY BVR ENGAGEMENTS

One website strictly created by the British military said the f-15c has a .8:1 k:d ratio against a SU-35. Meaning for every 1 f-15c that gets shot down .8 su-35 would get shot down. < alot of websites are claiming this is British propaganda for the the TYPHOON who claimed something like 8:1.

Now a whole bunch of Forums and US american simulators say for every 1 f15c, 2 SU-35 will get shot down and can even be higher with AWACS and AESA and the whole 9 yards.

So what does thie forum think???

.8:1

2:1

I think 2:1, i really want WAYNOS and WESTPOINTS opininon on this.


[edit on 18-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]


I know the comparison you are speaking of, it has been quoted on here many times.

I absolutely believe that it is a genuine and honest appraisal as it was commisioned by DERA not BAE Systems, to have 'propagandised' the result in any way would have defeated the object in doing it in the first place.

BUT, I don't know how accurate its findings would be now because it was conducted several years ago and all the aircraft included have been upgraded since then to varying degrees. Although the results tend to support my earlier claims re the F-15/Flanker/Typhoon etc I wouldn't rely on them to back me up

I do however think that the survey is closer to the truth than the forum if talking about the aircraft alone and no other factors, however depending on the Air Force in question I have no doubt that the the F-15 *could* achieve a 2:1 ratio.



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by JFrazier
I would think that the F-15C and Su-35 would be somewhat equal in a 1v1 BVR engagement. However, the amount of information the US military branches are able to collect and process is much greater than just about everyone else. This would aid the F-15C greatly especially combined with the AESA radar.

The Su-35 would have been tracked for a long time by AWACS.


Almost everyone has AWACS and datalinking these days, you need it just to have a chance of winning.



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 07:29 PM
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In a BVR scenario the F-15C AESA when combined with the full support systems of the USAF does indeed have an advantage over a Su-30 or Su-35 for example. Air combat is largely dependant on 'situation awareness'. This can be defined as knowing what the enemy is doing and denying the enemy similar information. Most air engagements are won because the target did not see what shot them down. Targets must be detected, the information passed to fighters, the intercept made and weapons fired. These are the standard steps in a BVR engagement.

IMO no other air force is as capable as the USAF when it comes to gathering, processing, and distributing information, accordingly I expect that a US pilot will have greater 'situational awareness' than his enemy. In this case a F-15 can indeed achieve, and I suspect surpass a 2-1 kill ratio over an Su-35. Comparing individual fighters and picking the "best" is not representative of a kill ratio in actual combat; pilots, support systems, tactics and other factors play a huge role too. Even a less capable fighter can be "better" when used right, keep that in mind before you try to counter with 'the Su-35 is better than the F-15.'

Oh and by the way, the DERA study gave the Typhoon a 4.5 : 1 ratio. However no one should take these findings as official or representative of an actual outcome. Wiki gives a good summary of why not.

DERA

[edit on 18-6-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 11:57 PM
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Waynos and Westpoint, I know i was a pain when new to this forum (probably still am) but i respect ur inputs. That in mind



THANK YOU

Does anyone think this is a Super Fighter alone and bring it over the EURO fighter > MSIP F-15C ACTIVE with AESA, and AIM-120 D or DRM / ASMT.

Waynos and Westpoint, id like to here what u 2 think.

If any one doesnt know what MSIP or ACTIVE is read below:

MSIP = Multistage Improvement Program (plz just google what was UPGRADED)

ACTIVE = Tech Demonstrated showing Short Takeoff and High Manuverbility with canard foreplanes and thrust Vectoring Engines (again google it)

Matter of fact GOOGLE THE WHOLE THING.

[edit on 19-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 07:30 AM
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Yes, you're the only one who thinks it's a super fighter.


Nah, that's actually quite the build for an F-15C, and in my personal opinion would pose a threat to any real 5th generation fighters, the upgrades are powerful, however that does not bring it above the Typhoon.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
I defintely can say that the MIG-31 can rape a F-14 (no argumen there).


You were advertising the F-14 as superior to anything Russian, but I guess you hadn't gotten to the page in Bill Gunston's book about the MiG-31 before this post.
I dare not think what new revelations you might have if you open any other books.


Originally posted by GhosTBR55
PAZO why dont u go to RUSSIA and declare war on the US and well see i your MIG-29 can handle my F-16 and ill show ur pathetic BLINd @$$ whats HOT u RUSSIAN COMMIE.


Russian Commie? Declare WAR on the US? Man, are you retarded?
First, I'm not Russian, nor a comunist. So I can claim I'm unbiased.
You on the other hand are clearly an ignorant and illiterate redneck, who confuses his ignorance with patriotism. You are an insult to the American People (I have more American friends, than I have Russian).
Before you show me 'whats HOT' you make sure they let you into an F-16. God Save the USAF if their pilots are anything like you.

One more thing. When you were advised to have more respect for certain members of this forum, what was meant was to read more and write less. No need to suck up to that person on every single post you write.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 08:41 AM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
STRICTLY BVR ENGAGEMENTS

One website strictly created by the British military


That was a DERA research/simulation conducted in the early 90s [if not the late 80s]. There is no reason to believe it is accurate with regards the current aircraft in the inventory, their tactics and munitions.


Indeed, as you mention, the results could have been (and most likely were) tuned for both the USAF and the RAF.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by Pazo

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
I defintely can say that the MIG-31 can rape a F-14 (no argumen there).


You were advertising the F-14 as superior to anything Russian, but I guess you hadn't gotten to the page in Bill Gunston's book about the MiG-31 before this post.
I dare not think what new revelations you might have if you open any other books.


Originally posted by GhosTBR55
PAZO why dont u go to RUSSIA and declare war on the US and well see i your MIG-29 can handle my F-16 and ill show ur pathetic BLINd @$$ whats HOT u RUSSIAN COMMIE.


Russian Commie? Declare WAR on the US? Man, are you retarded?
First, I'm not Russian, nor a comunist. So I can claim I'm unbiased.
You on the other hand are clearly an ignorant and illiterate redneck, who confuses his ignorance with patriotism. You are an insult to the American People (I have more American friends, than I have Russian).
Before you show me 'whats HOT' you make sure they let you into an F-16. God Save the USAF if their pilots are anything like you.

One more thing. When you were advised to have more respect for certain members of this forum, what was meant was to read more and write less. No need to suck up to that person on every single post you write.


*SNIP*

Im from NYC, FAR from redneck county u refer ur self from ... U love to Give Russians Credit where its not due so what should i expect from u??? A Russian Or American >>> and obviously i was joking but maybe ur to lonely to realize what that is???

I dont SUCK up to WEST or Waynos > I mention them *SNIP* because they are much more experienced then someone like u WHO is claiming that a MIG-31 Is on the top 5. < your way behind when it come to this discussion > *SNIP*

Now ill block u and never discuss with u again .... thats solves everything

[edit on 19-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]

Mod Edit: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 19/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

[edit on 19/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 12:18 PM
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Heres my new list

1. F/A-22
2. F-35
3. Typhoon
4. Rafale
5. Grippen


Outside Forum

1. F/A-22
2. F-35
3. Typhoon
4. F-15C
5. SU-35



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 12:51 PM
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Pavo has a point, from my end, it does sound like your kissing Wayno's arse. He's a nice guy and all and far more intelligent than any of us, but please.

I just need to apologize to everyone else who has been patient, your antics are very disturbing and the fact that you respond to inflamatory posts with even more inflamatory posts does not set you right in this forum.

You might want to update your list there, it's not F/A-22, it's F-22A, that has been officially changed already.

I'm from New York too, that doesn't mean there are no rednecks up here, I have seen my own share of ignoramuses up here. New York is just full of people who have high ego-emissions and arrogance coming out of the wazu. Just because we're in the North, does not mean we're perfect by any means.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Pavo has a point, from my end, it does sound like your kissing Wayno's arse. He's a nice guy and all and far more intelligent than any of us, but please.

I just need to apologize to everyone else who has been patient, your antics are very disturbing and the fact that you respond to inflamatory posts with even more inflamatory posts does not set you right in this forum.

You might want to update your list there, it's not F/A-22, it's F-22A, that has been officially changed already.

I'm from New York too, that doesn't mean there are no rednecks up here, I have seen my own share of ignoramuses up here. New York is just full of people who have high ego-emissions and arrogance coming out of the wazu. Just because we're in the North, does not mean we're perfect by any means.

Shattered OUT...

*SNIP*

Does anyone think this is a Super Fighter alone and bring it over the EURO fighter > MSIP F-15C ACTIVE with AESA, and AIM-120 D or DRM / ASMT.

If any one doesnt know what MSIP or ACTIVE is read below:

MSIP = Multistage Improvement Program (plz just google what was UPGRADED)

ACTIVE = Tech Demonstrated showing Short Takeoff and High Manuverbility with canard foreplanes and thrust Vectoring Engines (again google it)

Matter of fact GOOGLE THE WHOLE THING.



[edit on 19-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]

Mod Edit: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.

Mod Note: You Have An Urgent U2U- Click Here.

[edit on 19/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 02:42 PM
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I know there are no Rednecks in NYC, I live like 20 miles from NYC, I've been to NYC quite frequently actually, that doesn't mean there are no ignorant people there. There's a difference.

Ok, lets understand this, taking a generation 4 fighter and upgrading it's RADAR and weapons systems is not going to make it a super fighter in terms of 5th Generation fighters. The Typhoon is a much newer airframe and a much more capable one.

Just because it has a few new upgrades, doesn't make it a super fighter, it's still the same airframe, and still has the same limits.

Shattered OUT...


[edit on 19-6-2006 by ShatteredSkies]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
I know there are no Rednecks in NYC, I like 20 miles from NYC, I've been to NYC quite frequently actually, that doesn't mean there are no ignorant people there. There's a difference.

Ok, lets understand this, taking a generation 4 fighter and upgrading it's RADAR and weapons systems is not going to make it a super fighter in terms of 5th Generation fighters. The Typhoon is a much newer airframe and a much more capable one.

Just because it has a few new upgrades, doesn't make it a super fighter, it's still the same airframe, and still has the same limits.

Shattered OUT...


Does anyone think this is a Super Fighter alone and bring it over the EURO fighter > MSIP F-15C ACTIVE with AESA, and AIM-120 D or DRM / ASMT. AND A NEW AIRFRAME

If any one doesnt know what MSIP or ACTIVE is read below:

MSIP = Multistage Improvement Program (plz just google what was UPGRADED)

ACTIVE = Tech Demonstrated showing Short Takeoff and High Manuverbility with canard foreplanes and thrust Vectoring Engines (again google it)

Matter of fact GOOGLE THE WHOLE THING.



[edit on 19-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 03:24 PM
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Before you start throwing all of this into the discussion, do not tell me to google it, you google it, because you don't know obviously.

I am away that the F-15M/TD ACTIVE is a tech demonstrator, in fact 2-3 years ago one of my first threads was based on this very same aircraft, I don't have to google anything. I already did the research. This aircraft should not be included in the discussion, it is a tech demonstrator.

You google it, I don't have to do anything.

MSIP??? MSIP!!! Please, like I've said before, all you're doing is upgrading the RADAR and weapons system and doing a bit of rewiring, where is this new air frame you speak so fondly of? And if it's a new airframe, why is it the same aircraft? Am I the only one who is thinking sensibly now?

I am so confused as to why you keep repeating the same post over and over agian completely ignoring what I'm throwing at you. I know why, you're backed up into a corner. Drop the F-15C, it is not a super fighter in terms of 5th generation fighters.

MSIP does not make it a super fighter, it is still the same airframe, there is no new airframe, the F-22A essentially is the new airframe, it's the replacement for the F-15C, only problem is that the F-15C cannot be replaced by the F-22A in the numbers needed, so the F-15C needs the MSIP and AESA upgrades. All MSIP and AESA does is add more weight, better BVR, and AIM-120.

Shattered OUT...

[edit on 19-6-2006 by ShatteredSkies]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 03:38 PM
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If you guys can't settle down and discuss the topic without resort to insults, the thread's going to be closed.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 11:21 PM
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Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Before you start throwing all of this into the discussion, do not tell me to google it, you google it, because you don't know obviously.

I am away that the F-15M/TD ACTIVE is a tech demonstrator, in fact 2-3 years ago one of my first threads was based on this very same aircraft, I don't have to google anything. I already did the research. This aircraft should not be included in the discussion, it is a tech demonstrator.

You google it, I don't have to do anything.

MSIP??? MSIP!!! Please, like I've said before, all you're doing is upgrading the RADAR and weapons system and doing a bit of rewiring, where is this new air frame you speak so fondly of? And if it's a new airframe, why is it the same aircraft? Am I the only one who is thinking sensibly now?

I am so confused as to why you keep repeating the same post over and over agian completely ignoring what I'm throwing at you. I know why, you're backed up into a corner. Drop the F-15C, it is not a super fighter in terms of 5th generation fighters.

MSIP does not make it a super fighter, it is still the same airframe, there is no new airframe, the F-22A essentially is the new airframe, it's the replacement for the F-15C, only problem is that the F-15C cannot be replaced by the F-22A in the numbers needed, so the F-15C needs the MSIP and AESA upgrades. All MSIP and AESA does is add more weight, better BVR, and AIM-120.

Shattered OUT...

[edit on 19-6-2006 by ShatteredSkies]


What good points are u throwing in???? >>> i mean u said it ur self Shatter.

You know whats funny? > ur first post u said

"Nah, that's actually quite the build for an F-15C, and in my personal opinion would pose a threat to any real 5th generation fighters, the upgrades are powerful, however that does not bring it above the Typhoon. "

> then u come back on the second post and state the complete oppostie. > I think this basically makes it a 5th generation fighter and probably not better than the EURO soloy because its AIRFRAME.




[edit on 19-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 11:28 PM
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The thing is though that MSIP is only a systems upgrade. If you're talking WVR then MSIP isn't going to get you anything to win the fight. If you want to have an F-15 that is a serious WVR threat to anything out there now, you have to make major changes to the structure of the plane. You'd have to put thrust vectoring and new powerplants at a minimum. The F-15 is still a good WVR/BVR platform, but if you want the top dog F-15 you can't talk MSIP unless you do physical changes too. ACTIVE was an interesting idea, but not really feasible as an active (no pun intended) platform.



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