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The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

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posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 05:30 AM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55

Originally posted by justin_barton3
dude your book was published in 1995.


LOL
SOOOOO???
It doesnt matter especially when the planes i was talkin about were started 30 years ago and their latest models finished id say about 15 years ago or 10.
[edit on 10-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]


the world of millitary aviation has changed slightly since 1995.

the f-22 has become an active service fighter plane
the eurofighter has become an active service fighter plane
the rafale has become an active service fighter plane
the first production f-35 has been made
the f/a -18e/f variants first flew in late 1995
the f-14 has been retired

thats 6 good reasons to find a new source.

justin




posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 06:09 AM
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WAYNOS i lost all respect to u.


I didn't even know you had any, ho hum, I'll survive. If I don't earn your respect through what I write then I don't deserve it, simple as. Thank you to willard however for those very kind words.




Everytime you refute, you make bougus claims...For example The f-14 has 130 mile range missles but a 50 mile radar scanner............................................................................................................... HA! Thats funny.


Again, you completely misunderstood what I wrote, I never said any such thing. I'm not going to keep repeating myself either, what I wrote in the first place was plain enough.




AND WAYNOS ARE U KIDDIN ME!!! THE SU 27 CAnt TRACK UP TO 130 MILES and DOES NOT EQUIP WITH THE R 77 MILES


'the Su-27' is actually a very large family of aircraft with different capabilities. Don't limit your specification checks to a single model. I assure you I am not kidding you but I am not going to argue about it, if you don't believe me that is your prerogative. Perhaps you might like to refer to a recent Jane's or something before you throw accusations around?




m starting to think your very lonely and in denial PLEASE stop lieing to the Pubic.


I wish I was alone then I wouldn't have a wench nagging me to hurry up and get off the computer to take her shopping, however I am not, and have never been, a liar. I also very much doubt that 'the public' gives a damn what is said on internet message boards.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
Im starting to think your very lonely and in denial PLEASE stop lieing to the Pubic.


dude uve been on this site for 3 days. waynos has been on for over 2 years. have some respect.

justin

[edit on 11-6-2006 by justin_barton3]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by waynos

4 I wasn't even talking about missiles, just the plane's capabilities. I know missiles go hand in hand with modern fighters but this is a total defence system, the fighter plane itself is just the most expensive component and this is what I was referring to. After all, it is no use hanging a 130 mile range missile off a plane with a 50 mile track and scan range, it would be a waste. I mean the detect and intercept capabilities of each plane and in that respect the Su-27 is right up there with the F-14, if they should meet face to face the Su-27 would also win the dogfight as it is unencumbered by the heavy VG mechanism and high aspect ratio wings of the F-14. A much closer fight at short range would be between the F-15 and the Su-27 as they are of a similar design philosophy.



So did u not say in this passage that the F-14 has a 50 mile scanner with a 130 mile range missle...???? AGAIN HA AND ANOther HAHAHAAHAHAH!!!! Dont say i misunderstood when it clearly says it.

Your spitting lies on ur part WAYNOS JUST STOP IT.

AND

No where in the world will you find any models of the Su-27 or SU-47 have any long range capabilities for it was never made for that reason. But hey u get ur inf from one source AND i you have more i could care less because i no ur lieing threw ur teeth.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 10:59 AM
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I have to agree with everyone, Ghost, really, gain some respect for members that have been here longer than most others, including me and Waynos.(There are alot of people that have been here longer).

Seriously, if you're going to throw these kinds of inflamatory posts out there against other members by degrading their intelligence and simply saying "That's not true" and that backing it up with bogus claims as you so put forth, then don't even post.




The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges.


FAS




Some USAF F-15Cs have been retrofitted with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars and are expected to remain in service with the USAF well past 2020


Not ALL F-15C are getting AESA, only some of them are.

Wikipedia

Now, let me continue on by saying "ARE YOU kidding me?"

Beat a Su-47, not many aircraft are capable of that, the Su-47 is an extremely manueverable, even super-manueverable aircraft that does put up a fight, I'd say the only craft capable of combatting it are modern F-22, F-35, EF-2000, and Rafale.

Once again, we cannot include F-15C's because not all of them are getting AESA and they are being replaced, only F-15E will continue to serve as well as AESA F-15C, and that's just an upgraded RADAR.

Here is my list, this comprises of active aircraft only.

1)F-22A Raptor
2)EF-2000 Eurofighter Typhoon
3)Su-30MKI
4)Rafale
5)Su-37(Pending information)

Shattered OUT...



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 11:09 AM
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SHATTERED SKIES UR JUST INSANLY CRAZY!!!!!! SORRY UR COMPLETELY WRONG.

-And how could u put 2 SU in the top 5 modern aircraft... Ill raise u a million that both of those could be rocked by the F-15C....
-Who told you that manuverability will make an aircraft dominate/??
-The SU-47 has a speed of 1,218 (120 miles off WESTERN SuperFighters, I also found out the F22 is mach 2 and the f15c hits 1,800 speed) of course it would manuver better. (i would rater have speed of say mach 2 and manuv just as well)!!!
-And who told u it was SUPER MAnuverable??? Many Fighters today share the SAME manuverability as the SU-47 like the F-15C.

JUST READ THIS... i got it from (www.af.mil...)

"Mission
The F-15 Eagle is an all-weather, extremely maneuverable, tactical fighter designed to permit the Air Force to gain and maintain air supremacy over the battlefield. "

"Features
The Eagle's air superiority is achieved through a mixture of unprecedented maneuverability and acceleration, range, weapons and avionics. It can penetrate enemy defense and outperform and outfight any current enemy aircraft. The F-15 has electronic systems and weaponry to detect, acquire, track and attack enemy aircraft while operating in friendly or enemy-controlled airspace. The weapons and flight control systems are designed so one person can safely and effectively perform air-to-air combat.

The F-15's superior maneuverability and acceleration are achieved through high engine thrust-to-weight ratio and low wing loading. Low wing-loading (the ratio of aircraft weight to its wing area) is a vital factor in maneuverability and, combined with the high thrust-to-weight ratio, enables the aircraft to turn tightly without losing airspeed."

And dont just read the underline READ IT ALL because this kind of TEchnology that has become the basics for the U.S.

"Average people belieave what they HEAR and READ, but when they SEE... the world changes suddenly."

Well u should take ur own advice and

SHATTER OUT!!!

Forum List

1. F-22
2. Typhoon
3. F-35
4. Rafale
5. Su-37 or SU-47

Real List

1. F22
2. Typhoon
3. F-35 (i think its capable of beating the typhoon... cant say yet)
4. F-15C
5. F/A-18E/F SuperHornet




[edit on 11-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]

[edit on 11-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 11:10 AM
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From what I understand the Su-27 and Su-47 have longer ranges than the F-22 Raptor does.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
SHATTERED SKIES UR JUST INSANLY CRAZY!!!!!! SORRY UR COMPLETELY WRONG

So... I'm guessing this is how you respond when people put facts and sources on the table in front of you?

Gee, what's that gurgling sound? It's your credibility going down the toilet.*Thank you to intelgurl for that little joke right there
*

Shattered OUT...



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by ShatteredSkies

Originally posted by GhosTBR55
SHATTERED SKIES UR JUST INSANLY CRAZY!!!!!! SORRY UR COMPLETELY WRONG

So... I'm guessing this is how you respond when people put facts and sources on the table in front of you?

Gee, what's that gurgling sound? It's your credibility going down the toilet.*Thank you to intelgurl for that little joke right there
*

Shattered OUT...


Go back and reread i edited my post... PLZ stop over exageratein the SU-47 its just another upgrade of the SU-27 AND what ranges are u talkin about>?? combat radius or armanent wise??? If its combat radius wise it doesnt really matter cause the SU wins by 50 miles or so. AND IT really doesnt matter especially these PLanes are MADE WITH A DIFFERENT CLASS of SOPHISTICATIONS.. I mean the F22 havin a combat radius of 810 is amazin judging by HOW AMAZIN IT IS ALREADY!

Just so u no combat raduis of F-15C is 1,222 AND su-27 AND 30 IS 857
tHE F22 IS 808

ANd again go READ the post from before a half page up.. ull see real facts! not facts like "wikipedia" and anyways all u did was put a title of WIKIPEDIA and then u stated wht u want< are u kiddin me!! thats false advertising. GIVE ME SOME QUOTES....

TAKE YOUR OWN ADIVICE AND

SHATTER OUT





There is rumors the F-23 isnt done... ITS BEING MADE INTO A SUPER STEALTH FIGHTER!!!! and that there are crazy NEW generations of planes and wont be seen till say 2010-2020?? is this true? W/E




[edit on 11-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
-Who told you that manuverability will make an aircraft dominate/??

-And who told u it was SUPER MAnuverable??? Many Fighters today share the SAME manuverability as the SU-47 like the F-15C.



in a dogfight having super manouverability will help an aircraft dominate a plane that is less agile but can go faster. it is not the only factor but in close range dogfighting manouverability is vital

and if you seriously believe that a SU-47 isnt far more manouverable than a F-15C then maybe you should go and find some new sources as ive already suggested. a lot has changed since 1995. maybe you should ask Waynos, i believe he has some good sources, Shattered skies might have some ideas as well.

Yes all your sources do say that the F-15 is super manouverable and it is, but it isnt in the same manouverability league as the SU-47.

Escuse me for asking, but are you talking about the SU-47 berkut?????
www.suchoj.com...

i assume you are so i will continue.



PLZ stop over exageratein the SU-47 its just another upgrade of the SU-27


the SU-47 is not an upgrade of the Su-27 flanker. It is a compleatly different aircraft that uses parts from the Su-27 aircraft to reduce costs.

www.milavia.net...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.airforce-technology.com...

once more, dude please learn some respect for people who have been on this message board far longer than you or I. if you disagree thats fine, thats what this message board is for discussion and learning. but the correct way to argue is to quote the thing you disagree with, give your opinion and then give a quote and maybe coment on the quote.

justin

Edit: i added another link
Edit: spelling
[edit on 11-6-2006 by justin_barton3]

[edit on 11-6-2006 by justin_barton3]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 12:08 PM
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JUSTIN seriously quit the SOURCES BS already, I used that SPECIFIC BOOK just for the F-14 OKAY???? For all other facts i use at least 4 wesites to get my CONCLUSIONS. i put a source with my facts why dont u look at it and stop being so hard headed. Just because the SU-47 is a brandnew fighter doesnt make it better than something older. GOD! lets see FORd makes new cars all the time... But id rather have a 1998 mercedes than a brandnew 2006 ford ANYTIME!!!

UMMM ive been debatin exactly the way u said.... did u pass highschool????

FULLY READ MY LAST 2 POSTS!!!!!

LOL U DIDNT PASS HIGHSCHOOL ON UR OWN WEBSITES IT SAYS THAT IT USES THE SU-27 DESIGNS LET ME REPEAT DESIGNS to LOWER COsTS. OKAY???? not PARTS!!!!

Its higly know EVEN on WIKIPEIDA that the SU-27 is a counter For the F14 and the
FU-37 (now the SU-47) is a counter of the F-15C






[edit on 11-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]

[edit on 11-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 12:24 PM
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please i asked this in my last post but in your haste to insult me you seem to have ignord it. are we or are we not talking about the su-47 berkut???

Justin



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 12:40 PM
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ATS is for discussing the topic at hand, not members and whether they've graduated high school or not.

As a side note, there are more than a few ATS members who have undergraduate, graduate, and post graduate degrees, not to mention the large number of members with military experience.




posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 01:18 PM
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JUSTIN i was talkin about the SU-47 Berkut which SACRIFICED its speed for its Manuvarbility. Which the F-15c does not.

I got that from your own SOURCES JUSTIN



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Once again, we cannot include F-15C's because not all of them are getting AESA and they are being replaced, only F-15E will continue to serve as well as AESA F-15C, and that's just an upgraded RADAR.


No, not all of them, the F-15C AESA will continue to serve until around 2020, they may not serve with active units but they will remain in service with Guard units. And you include the Su-37 in your list which is not a production aircraft yet you exclude the F-15C because not all of them are getting AESA upgrades? Also, what does a Rafale or Su-30 have over a F-15C with AESA and AIM-120D’s?



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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So did u not say in this passage that the F-14 has a 50 mile scanner with a 130 mile range missle...???? AGAIN HA AND ANOther HAHAHAAHAHAH!!!! Dont say i misunderstood when it clearly says it.


*sigh* This will be my last contribution to this particular conversation because I really can't figure out if you are that dumb or if you are doing it on purpose.

look; I wasn't even talking about missiles, just the plane's capabilities. I know missiles go hand in hand with modern fighters but this is a total defence system, the fighter plane itself is just the most expensive component and this is what I was referring to. After all, it is no use hanging a 130 mile range missile off a plane with a 50 mile track and scan range, it would be a waste." See, NO reference to the F-14 in that sentence AT ALL. It is a hypothetical example of WHY I was discussing aircraft performance only, not combined with a missile, see?

You are wilfully misrepresenting what is said, openly insulting the intelligence of other memebers and then reading far too much into your own sources, for example, as evidence that the F-15 is better than all Flanker models;




The F-15 Eagle is an all-weather, extremely maneuverable, tactical fighter designed to permit the Air Force to gain and maintain air supremacy over the battlefield.

and


The F-15's superior maneuverability and acceleration are achieved through high engine thrust-to-weight ratio and low wing loading. Low wing-loading


In the first quote, yes, it was designed to do this and it achieved it, but it was designed around 1970, long before the Flanker was created, the Spitfire was also 'designed' to be the best fighter in the world but it hasn't held that title for many decades, comprende?

The second quote is a general description, it is not specific. Only you are choosing to read 'superior manouverability' as meaning 'superior to everything else' despite it not being what was written. This was how the F-15 achieved its aims when it was created, this does not mean it automatically applies 36 years later


However I can clearly see that you cannot handle rational debate so I will let the next round of name calling and abuse pass by without comment, thank you.

[edit on 11-6-2006 by waynos]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by GhosTBR55
JUST READ THIS... i got it from (www.af.mil...)

"Mission
The F-15 Eagle is an all-weather, extremely maneuverable, tactical fighter designed to permit the Air Force to gain and maintain air supremacy over the battlefield. "

"Features
The Eagle's air superiority is achieved through a mixture of unprecedented maneuverability and acceleration, range, weapons and avionics. It can penetrate enemy defense and outperform and outfight any current enemy aircraft. The F-15 has electronic systems and weaponry to detect, acquire, track and attack enemy aircraft while operating in friendly or enemy-controlled airspace. The weapons and flight control systems are designed so one person can safely and effectively perform air-to-air combat.

The F-15's superior maneuverability and acceleration are achieved through high engine thrust-to-weight ratio and low wing loading. Low wing-loading (the ratio of aircraft weight to its wing area) is a vital factor in maneuverability and, combined with the high thrust-to-weight ratio, enables the aircraft to turn tightly without losing airspeed."

And dont just read the underline READ IT ALL because this kind of TEchnology that has become the basics for the U.S.


So what you're saying is that in 30+ years, with no major upgrades, except to systems, that Russia is completely incapable of coming up with a plane that can outmanuver the F-15. Or that the F-15 is STILL one of the most manuverable planes out there? I don't think so. The F-15 WAS one of the most manuverable, and capable, and it's still pretty high up there, but guess what. The Russians have several that are capable of outfighting it. Even F-15 pilots have said so. Now unless you're calling them liars, and saying you know better than they do, I think you better do some basic research on the matter.

Oh, and speed has NOTHING to do with manuverability. There is a thing called cornering speed. If you are above it, or below it, your turns are going to be huge. Most fighters have a best cornering speed of around 450mph. If you're in an F-15 and flying at Mach 2.5, guess what your turn radius is going to be. The SR-71 was capable of Mach 3.2+, and it took hundreds of miles to turn 180 degrees at top speed. Not to mention, top speed is in a clean configuration, under optimum conditions. You're not going to be going Mach 2.5 in an F-15 with three external fuel tanks and 8 missiles hanging out there, so WHO CARES if it's capable of Mach 2.5. It's not going to do you any good in combat, unless you've fired off everything, ditched your tanks, and are running away.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 05:02 PM
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OMG WAYNOS its the other way around, i dont no if ur being dumb or doing this on purpose.

1. I want u to put SOURCES with ur comments, So i can read what ur talking about.
BECAUSE i dont want ur MADE UP facts but real facts. COMPRENDE?

2. Waynos how am i supposed to no that u were talkin about the su27 with the scanner and missle huh??? do i read ur mind?

When did i say that the Manuvering of the F-15c is superior to all other planes? CAUSE I DIDNT. i said it could match the Flanker with out sacraficing its speed. Maybe its MANUV isnt better than the SU-47, thats okay, its still BETTER.
AND when did the date of a plane make it better??? HUH!!


LIKE i said I would RATHER HAVE A mercedes from 1998 than a ford pos from 2006

COMPRENDE??? or maybe u wanna refute by giving me worthless accusations that i never said and maybe state ur facts that come from no sources right????

HERE let me be like WAYNOS
O the f15 was made 30 years before so that must mean its worst then new upcoming planes.
O yea their is a 50 mile scanner on a SU with a 130 mile range missle BECASUE that makes sense.
O let me put words in ur mouth and bring up a worthless discussion and then make up more fact and fiction.
O let me pretend to be the better man...

FROM ME NOW>> HAHAAHAH

Latest models of the F-15C

-"The F-15 Multistage Improvement Program was initiated in February 1983, with the first production MSIP F-15C produced in 1985."

So the latest models being produced in 1985 would make the UPDATED versions 20 years old. NOT 30 andddd they are still updating the plane.
The plane wont see the trash can until 2020, If the USA wants to keep a FIGHTER that long, must be GOOD. AND its not because of BUDGET cuts ITS becuase the cold war is over and RUSSIA has fallen IN THE POST COLD WAR WORLD. There is no more threat from RUSSIA, y do u think we cut back on The F22. The only reason y we are making this plane is to keep our title as SUPER WORLD POWER.

-AND i never SAID that te F-15C can out manuv the SU-47, i said its just as good. So dont put words in my posts plz.

-ZAPHOD u show me where any AMERICAN F-15 pilot or any F-15 pilot said that there are RUSSIAN planes capable of out fighting it and ill belieave u. BEcause fromw hat i understand the SU-27 was to counter the f-14 (retired) and the MIG 29 is Considered Very UNsopisticated to other modern planes such as the F-15 16 and 18, That leaves the RUSSIANS with the MIG 1.42 Which looks like an updated mig 29 (according to WIKIPEDIA) and the SU47. None of which havent yet been put in production.

-AND omg WHERE the HELL did i say spped has to do with MANU??? i SAID the f-15 doesnt sacrfice it speed for MANUVerin.

Do u know how to read???














[edit on 11-6-2006 by GhosTBR55]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 05:27 PM
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F-15 Multistage Improvement Program


The Multi-Stage Improvement Program (MSIP) is a joint program carried out by McDonnell Douglas and the USAF's Warner Robins Logistics Center in Georgia. Under MSIP, upgrades were progressively incorporated onto the production line and then retrofitted to earlier production aircraft.

MSIP II is that portion of the program which handles the F-15C/D. The major part of MSIP II is to fit the APG-70 radar and the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

The Electronic Warfare Warning Set (EWWS) was modified into the more capable Tactical Electronic Warfare System (TEWS) with an ALQ-135 electronic countermeasures set and an upgraded ALR-56C radar warning receiver. An overload warning system was provided to prevent pilots from accidentally exceeding 9g during combat maneuvering.

The F-15C/D aircraft going through the MSIP II were fitted with the wiring needed to give them the capability of carrying and launching the AIM-120 AMRAAM missile, which was introduced into service in the early 1990s.

Another part of the MSIP II was the Seek Talk program, which was designed to reduce the vulnerability of the F-15's UHF radios to enemy jamming by introducing spread spectrum techniques and the use of a null steering antenna. Yet another was the Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS), which is intended to provide high-capacity, reliable, and jam-proof information distribution between various elements of deployed forces and command and control centers. Another aspect of the MSIP is the integration of the F-15 with the Global Positioning Satellite (GPS). A new multi-function display armament control panel was introduced. New stick-top and throttle grips were added. The ECM equipment was improved, with ALR-56C RWR, ALQ-135B internal ECM system, and enhanced ALQ-128 being introduced.

The major part of MSIP II involved the development an upgraded AN/APG-63 radar, which is so much improved that is given the new designation of AN/APG-70. In this unit, the radar data processor memory was increased from 16K to 24K, and its processing speed was increased by a factor of three. The memory capability of the APG-63 radar fire control system was increased from 96K to 1000K and the processing speed was trebled. A Programmable Armament Control Set (PACS) was installed. The new unit has multiple bandwidths for high-resolution ground mapping using SAR technology. Several new radar modes were added, such as track-while-scan, which made it possible to ripple-fire up to four BVR missiles at separate targets simultaneously. The APG-70 radar also had a Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability, which makes it possible for it to detect and direct attacks on enemy aircraft without its emissions being easily seen by the enemy. The new processing power made available with the use of the new APG-70 radar made it practical to make use of Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR) technology, which provides the ability to distinguish more reliably between friendly and hostile aircraft. Much of the NCTR technology is highly "black" and very few details are available, but it reportedly makes it possible to avoid a lot of "friendly fire" accidents, such as the one that resulted in the loss of the IranAir Airbus in July of 1988.

home.att.net...

Show me ANYTHING in there that will make the F-15 capable of "dominating" anything that has come out more recently. Yes it has AESA radar, but that's not going to make it able to "easily shoot down any SU-27 or MiG-29".

You have said REPEATEDLY that the F-15 can and will dominate any Sukhoi or MiG built, INCLUDING the SU-47.

So, you seriously think that a plane that came out in 1972 is STILL going to be better than a plane that came out in 2004?
Do you REALIZE how much aviation has changed in TEN YEARS?

And as I said, the ONLY WAY you're going to have the top speed in ANY fighter is under optimum conditions. No external stores, no weapons. So YES, even the F-15 sacrifices speed. But again, SO WHAT if you have speed if you don't have the manuverability of the newer planes. All that means is that you can run away faster.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 05:43 PM
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OK like i said the SU-27 is a counter for THE F-14 And in the kill records of the F-15 their are numerous MIG-29 s with no migs killing the F-15.

I dont belieave the F-15c and the SU-27 and MIG-29 are on the same page.

A better match is the MSIP F-15C with 8 AIM-120D and the AESA against the SU-47.

-And i already told u that i dont think SPEED is everything. I SAID the SU 47 sacrifices its speed FOR MAnuverin when The F-15c has a balance.

- I do think the SU-47 can out MANUver the F-15c but not to the point where ur makin the F-15c fall out of the class of an SU-47

you said alot has changed in 30 years??? well a 98 mercedes E-300 out classes a 2006 Ford Fusion and FORD had 8 years to make a better car, but ford still cant do it. SO dont give me DATES as a fight When the F-15C has seen many UPGRADES.



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