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The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

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posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by ChrisRT
Pity really... You refuse to acknowledge that a plane with ~ superior weapons suite, superior combat systems, equal or superior radar, and superior ECM capabilities would most likely win in a BVR situation...
Also a pity that you’d base a fighters performance off of the date of manufacturing… Ha, the F/A-22 is going into service the earlier then the J-10 yet the J-10 would stand ABSOLUTELY no chance against the ’22. Same with the Rafaela and Typhoon…But you are probably one of the people that would argue that the F/A-22 with competent U.S. pilots, and superior support would loose in an aerial battle against the above.


With all the limitations (why was there to begin with) I’m surprised it wasn’t slaughtered further then the kill ratios lead one to believe.

Anyhow, you will see the true sides of things in the years to come.


superior, superior to what, not the Su-27 and its variants, first of all, its actual performance characteristics are better than the F-15, check out the P-42 if you don't know what i'm talking about, and now that the russian IT industry is rapidly growing at an estimated 25% per year, they won't be behind America in the avioinics category, what are you talking about, i was using the age of the aircraft to show its capabilites, is there something wrong with you?, you can't judge a aircraft performance by the year of productaion, that is a perfectly viable option, of course you can, if an aircraft is older, it was made with inferior electronics, the airframe is older, the weapons are older, the capabilites are less impressive with the advance of technology, which enable new abilities

no doubt the F-22 will swap the floor with any current aircraft currently, but, thats why the PAK-FA is brewing, and will soon be available, then we shall compare these two amazing aircraft

you see, your very close-minded, open up, let in the sunshine, not everything russian is bad and not everything american is good

oh, another thing, i noticed that you mentioned superior weapons, NO, the missiles on the Su-27 and its variants are clearly superior, the AIM-9X has just finally reached the capabilities of the AA-11 Archer, the AA-12 is vastly superior to the AMRAAMand the AA-10 is equal to or slightly superior to it

wel thats all, just open up




posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 11:14 PM
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i'm surprised how all the F-15 enthusiasts are SURE that given a cmoplete loadout on both sides, the outcome of Cope India WOULD have been different for sure....I'm just saying that there's no scope for comparision becasue both aircraft have BVR ranges of beyond 100 miles and both aircraft can track above 12 aircraft simultaneously at those distances...both radar used the split mini-radar technique..except the F-15 has got a higher top speed (mach 2.5) while the flanker is limited to mach 2.3....where doe all the conclusiveness come in???



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 11:24 PM
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www.codeonemagazine.com...

F-16's had superior avionics to the Mig-29's by far. The pilots from both sides agreed.


oh, another thing, i noticed that you mentioned superior weapons, NO, the missiles on the Su-27 and its variants are clearly superior, the AIM-9X has just finally reached the capabilities of the AA-11 Archer, the AA-12 is vastly superior to the AMRAAMand the AA-10 is equal to or slightly superior to it


The AMRAAM is 90% accurate. Unlike with the Russian planes, Americans just have to hit a single button to fire a missile compared to the Russians who have to flip a number of switches.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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that has more to deal with the avionics suite than the actual missile, and by the way, its 11 switches for one AA-11, avionics wise, when was the test taken? huh, have you taken into consideration that German pilots aren't familiar with the MiG-29, they have them, but don't use them a lot

90%, yea so what, the AA-12 should be called the Reaper, because it reaped F-15's a new one in COPE India, the AA-11, is commonly regarded as being superior to the AIM-9, the AA-10 really surpirsed the west with how advanced missile designs in Russia had become, and it is on par with AMRAAM, 90% says an American study, a study, what happened to your Patriot missiles, they were supposed to intercept those antique Scuds in the first Gulf War, what happened, an abysmall performance rating, but in tests, it was a god, everything is not what it seems



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 11:45 PM
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Yes I agree that the F-16 has superior avionics to the MiG-29...but I am a bit surprised at the 'throwing of many switches' to launch a missile bit'..you sure about this...?
There must be a reason to incorpprate so many failsafes...Is Russian IFF inferior to its western counterparts??
Infact I've heard of an instance where a F-16 accidentally shot down a wingman in an intercept mission...



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 12:00 AM
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oh, another thing, i noticed that you mentioned superior weapons, NO, the missiles on the Su-27 and its variants are clearly superior, the AIM-9X has just finally reached the capabilities of the AA-11 Archer, the AA-12 is vastly superior to the AMRAAMand the AA-10 is equal to or slightly superior to it


And what weapon has proven time and again that it can perform in a combat environment?



i'm surprised how all the F-15 enthusiasts are SURE that given a cmoplete loadout on both sides, the outcome of Cope India WOULD have been different for sure....I'm just saying that there's no scope for comparision becasue both aircraft have BVR ranges of beyond 100 miles and both aircraft can track above 12 aircraft simultaneously at those distances...both radar used the split mini-radar technique..except the F-15 has got a higher top speed (mach 2.5) while the flanker is limited to mach 2.3....where doe all the conclusiveness come in???


Then by this logic one would have to rely on better pilot skills as seeing that the above statement would most likely end in ~ a 1:1 kill ratio.
The radar range is only good for vectoring into a firing position as the missiles don’t have the range of the radar. You would label that under SA and the aircraft being painted would probably know it is and the EWR would tell him where to point the radar. Plenty of time at more then 100 miles.




F-16's had superior avionics to the Mig-29's by far. The pilots from both sides agreed.


True, though one would be sour to deny that the SMT variants aren’t a grave threat...




that has more to deal with the avionics suite than the actual missile, and by the way, its 11 switches for one AA-11, avionics wise, when was the test taken? huh, have you taken into consideration that German pilots aren't familiar with the MiG-29, they have them, but don't use them a lot

They have them but don't use them allot? I recon with that attitude a Phantom would pull up on his 6 and pop a winder in the pipe, no?
He is a fighter pilot trusted with a $30 million fighter jet and has had more then $1 million invested in his training... He had better know how to use it fighter...




and it is on par with AMRAAM, 90% says an American study, a study, what happened to your Patriot missiles, they were supposed to intercept those antique Scuds in the first Gulf War, what happened, an abysmall performance rating, but in tests, it was a god, everything is not what it seems


The newer PAC-3s are more then enough to cope with the missiles...
The Slammers have a %90 kill ratio because 90 out of the 100 fired left a flaming fighter in someone’s backyard...


Don't take me wrong though, I respect Russian equipment and if/when I'm in the sky I hope I'm in a Raptor. I wouldnt want to fly into combat in an F-15 only to be flown back to base in an SH-60...



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 04:54 PM
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that has more to deal with the avionics suite than the actual missile, and by the way, its 11 switches for one AA-11, avionics wise, when was the test taken? huh, have you taken into consideration that German pilots aren't familiar with the MiG-29, they have them, but don't use them a lot


The Germans are the most highly trained Mig-29 pilots in the world. They see more airtime in those planes then Russians do.

This was an exercise done just a few years ago between American and German pilots. The F-16's proved to be the better plane overall. Avionics were a huge drawback for the Mig-29, as they are for all Russian planes.


90%, yea so what, the AA-12 should be called the Reaper, because it reaped F-15's a new one in COPE India, the AA-11, is commonly regarded as being superior to the AIM-9, the AA-10 really surpirsed the west with how advanced missile designs in Russia had become, and it is on par with AMRAAM, 90% says an American study, a study, what happened to your Patriot missiles, they were supposed to intercept those antique Scuds in the first Gulf War, what happened, an abysmall performance rating, but in tests, it was a god, everything is not what it seems


The Patriot DID intercept the scuds at a very high rate. It simply wasn't designed for that role at the time. The problem was it deflected the Scuds instead of destroying them. The Patriot was originally designed to protect soldiers on the battlefield, not a city.

The AMRAAM is 90% accurate. That's fact. You can't give a figure for the Archer. The AMRAAM has about the same range, plus a more advanced system. The thing has its own tracking system. No Russian pilot will know its even coming until its too late.


Yes I agree that the F-16 has superior avionics to the MiG-29...but I am a bit surprised at the 'throwing of many switches' to launch a missile bit'..you sure about this...?
There must be a reason to incorpprate so many failsafes...Is Russian IFF inferior to its western counterparts??
Infact I've heard of an instance where a F-16 accidentally shot down a wingman in an intercept mission...


The Russians don't flip switches as a failsafe, they do it because they don't have the technology. You see, it capitalist America, the private sector surpassed Russia's controled economy in technology by far. Electrons and computers in the West are the most advanced.

Russia makes good frames, but in the end, its really about looking good on paper. They don't have the ability to make the superior avionics America does, so they have to compensate. They HAVE to make planes that can do useless things like the Cobra because no one would buy their planes otherwise.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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the SMT is an incredible aircraft, here's some information on it, incredibly improved avionics and it comes witha HOTAS design, one of the first for russian aircraft.

www.migavia.ru...

90% is NOT proven its from tests, yes, it is true that German pilots get the most hours with MiG-29's out of any country in thew world, but its still not enough, they barely use their MiG-29's, really, if your thinking about the same excercise as i and read it from the same source, it mentions it there, they were not familiar with the aircraft, and this was the original MiG-29 i believe, most likely, it went up against a modified or modernized F-16

for the AMRAAM, maybe you mean that it has a passive seeker, the AA-12 also has that, actually, F-15 pilots mentioned that when they went up against the Indian aircraft in COPE India, they never knew when they were being illuminated, i read it at an article posted somewhere here

i guess thats all there is to respond to, i can't remeber what else you guys said



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 08:59 PM
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90% is NOT proven its from tests, yes, it is true that German pilots get the most hours with MiG-29's out of any country in thew world, but its still not enough, they barely use their MiG-29's, really, if your thinking about the same excercise as i and read it from the same source, it mentions it there, they were not familiar with the aircraft, and this was the original MiG-29 i believe, most likely, it went up against a modified or modernized F-16


The Mig-29 went up against F-16 A's, as well as modified versions. The C completely outclassed the Mig-29.

And your argument makes no sense. These Germans get more time on these planes then Russians, yet they don't know how to use them as well? That's ridiculous. The Germans are the best pilots with Mig-29's.


for the AMRAAM, maybe you mean that it has a passive seeker, the AA-12 also has that, actually, F-15 pilots mentioned that when they went up against the Indian aircraft in COPE India, they never knew when they were being illuminated, i read it at an article posted somewhere here


The F-15's in Cope India didn't have AMRAAM's, or the best avionics being fitted into newer F-15's. They also had to keep illuminating their target. They were at a complete disadvantage.

As for the AMRAAM, it has its own active radar. It operates completely seperately from the aircraft once launched, which prevents the enemy pilot from knowing its coming. Its also launched in just seconds. Given that the AESA radar track more targets than anything Russia has, and can target more, and can fire with just a flip of a switch compared to a Russian pilot who has to go through a relatively long process, the F-15 clearly has the edge.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 11:55 PM
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ohhhh man i cant believe how ridiculous this thread is getting. Let me explain this in simple terms. MiG-29 that Germans have is the old one. The F-16s Americans were using in exercise are new and updated. I can guarantee you that MIG-29smt is more likely gonna be on the 6 of any F-16, that has been theoretically proven many times.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by dtmfreak
ohhhh man i cant believe how ridiculous this thread is getting. Let me explain this in simple terms. MiG-29 that Germans have is the old one. The F-16s Americans were using in exercise are new and updated. I can guarantee you that MIG-29smt is more likely gonna be on the 6 of any F-16, that has been theoretically proven many times.


You know, that statement is somewhat true... The Mig-29SMT is on par with the Hornet in a knife fight and it does have better avionics-weapons then older Fulcrums.
The problem though it that the F-16 will be getting HMS and Aim-9X. A deadly, almost overwhelming combo in a knife fight.

Also, since when did theoretical work in the real world? The Mig-15 was theoretically better then the F-86, the Mig-21 and Mig-17 could theoretically own an F-4 when fangs are drawn, the Mig-25 was theoretically supposed to own all fighters before it...



[edit on 12-1-2005 by ChrisRT]



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 04:22 PM
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ohhhh man i cant believe how ridiculous this thread is getting. Let me explain this in simple terms. MiG-29 that Germans have is the old one. The F-16s Americans were using in exercise are new and updated. I can guarantee you that MIG-29smt is more likely gonna be on the 6 of any F-16, that has been theoretically proven many times.


America used F-16A's in the exercise, as well as the later models.

The Mig-29 is more manueverable then the F-16, as a plane that came out long after the F-16 should be. It's systems aren't on par, though. The Mig-29's manueverability won't help it much in a BVR scenario.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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WHY did Dima get banned??? he didn't even have a warning?


I am sure you had your reasons, i'd like to know though...

[edit on 12/1/2005 by GrOuNd_ZeRo]



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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I was wondering that too, especially when you compare his posts with, er say, Siberian Tiger who is rabid by comparison? It smacks of heavy handedness to me though I'm sure I don't know all the facts. I fear these two posts will be gone when I return to the site



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 07:05 PM
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Disturbed Diliverer I went to thatt link so I could see some Yank exaggerations and I found them "These pilots claim the MiG can't fly in crisp way LIKE THE 16 i CAN ASSURE YOU HE WAS LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH" everyone how has the slightest knowledge of real Russian airframes knows MiG 29 are more agile and fly with "crisp" than a 16 and the part about the pilot taking the controles away from the American pilot because the 29 was about to snap" would make any person IMMEDIATLY tell you (Disturbed Diliverer) that that pilot was out right lying the 29 can take way more G's than the 16 and the 15 without snapping buddy, you can beleive it if you want but like my American friend told me "ALL American Generals know very well Russian MiG 29's are more aerodynamic than any f-16 of any BLOCK!! thats why U.S. consintraites more on BVR's man!!

[edit on 12-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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America concentres more on BVR because its more effective, and we have the technology, where as Russia doesn't.

That article is the same that you'd find anywhere. They are quotes from real Mig-29 pilots, as well as American pilots who actually flew in the Mig-29's.

It's still good to see your friend knows what American generals know. He's a far more reliable source then the pilots from both sides, right?



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 07:22 PM
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Before I resond I just wanna ask you how many hours do you spend on ATS MAN man you reponded quickly!?



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 07:46 PM
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This has no real point to the topic, but whatever...

I'm online in general a few hours a night most of the time. If I'm home, I'm probably on the computer.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
. The Germans are the best pilots with Mig-29's.



Awww c'mon man !!! Now your pulling rabbits outve a hat again!!...IMHO Indians are the best MiG 29 pilots and the PAF is quite good with its F-16s too..so that would be a good match-up..The RSAF F-16s were also put up against IAF jets but the damn results are classified!!!!


also this flip many switches thing sounds a little funny to be true..you got sources on that reaction time comparision between russian and american jets???



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 12:18 PM
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This thread went to hell! Anyway, it doesn’t matter if the Germans spend an hour a month in the Mig-29s that they don’t own anymore by the way. They know how to use the weapon systems. That’s the kind of processes you learn about the jet you are set to fly even before you finish ground school...
And yes, the ’29 is a beast in close quarters but that is no excuse to have F-14s tearing up its 6 in a knife fight.




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