The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Its not about sites..its about the technology...the Janes article(s) you've been referring to are probably comparing the F-15 with AESA to the Su-30Ka..and not MKI...Mmoreover the MKI the IAF has is israeli avionics fitted, not plain old ruskie stuff...so comparisions based on technology are not conclusive because there is no scope for comparision, no level ground...also another thing the outnumbering of USAF aircraft in Cope India is a part of the Exercise not a ploy...offensive teams ALWAYS outnumber defensive ones by at least a 2:1 ratio to hope for any chance of success...

No again, it stated the F-15C was SUPERIOR, not just the technology. You should subscribe to them, and you'd learn a thing or two.

And anyone with a brain knows that the F-15 pilots were handicapped in Cope India, and that in full combat scenario, the F-15's would wipe the floor with the Su-30's.

[edit on 9-1-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

Anybody with a brain wouldn't shoot off w/o knowing all data present at hand..a brain you severely seem to lack...

and which part of Russia are you from?..The part thats aleady defected to america?

If Janes says superior and not only in tech then in what, manuverability?..airframe..? rate of climb? what dude.. superior in what??
No specs no data nothing..just SUPERIOR...superior ego thats what!!!

You know, if the USAF really thought the F-15 was completely outclassed by the new Russian flankers that they're selling to just about anyone they can, then I don't think they'd want to keep F-15's around for another decade. It just kind of doesn't make sense.

Its not about sense, its about money, don't forget the original plan was to buy 750 F-22's to replace ALL the F-15's because the USAF knew that the Eagle was getting long in the tooth and about to be overhauled by several new fighters.

They are only keeping the F-15 in service because its cheaper than the F-22, of which it seems there will only be a nominal amount purchased.

Avionics upgrades certainly help a great deal but they can only go so far, the Air Fiorce and the industry knows this. Otherwise the F-22 would never have been started.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Anybody with a brain wouldn't shoot off w/o knowing all data present at hand..a brain you severely seem to lack...

and which part of Russia are you from?..The part thats aleady defected to america?

If Janes says superior and not only in tech then in what, manuverability?..airframe..? rate of climb? what dude.. superior in what??
No specs no data nothing..just SUPERIOR...superior ego thats what!!!

Maybe you have a comprehension problem.

It said the Eagle had the advantage in the following areas: speed, radar, weapons and situational awarness, not to mention ECM, but the Eagle pilots could not use them in Cope India, and the AMRAAM was limited to 32km.

The Su-30MKI has the advantage in agility and high aero alpha, and that's it, do your research before you start to babble, you have no argument anyway just personal attacks, grow up kiddo.

[edit on 9-1-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

Originally posted by waynos
Its not about sense, its about money, don't forget the original plan was to buy 750 F-22's to replace ALL the F-15's because the USAF knew that the Eagle was getting long in the tooth and about to be overhauled by several new fighters.

They are only keeping the F-15 in service because its cheaper than the F-22, of which it seems there will only be a nominal amount purchased.

Avionics upgrades certainly help a great deal but they can only go so far, the Air Fiorce and the industry knows this. Otherwise the F-22 would never have been started.

Well, the USAF also wants the F-22 because it will retain the USAF with overwhelming power.

I can assure everyone that warns will be passed around if the content of posts continue to be insulting. Last "unofficial" warning gang.

Its not about sense, its about money, don't forget the original plan was to buy 750 F-22's to replace ALL the F-15's because the USAF knew that the Eagle was getting long in the tooth and about to be overhauled by several new fighters.

They are only keeping the F-15 in service because its cheaper than the F-22, of which it seems there will only be a nominal amount purchased.

Avionics upgrades certainly help a great deal but they can only go so far, the Air Fiorce and the industry knows this. Otherwise the F-22 would never have been started.

So, we'll keep a useless plane around? Most enemies America would be fighting in the near future would have a Flanker. What good would a F-15 do if its outclassed by it?

I don't think you even got the point, Waynos. The F-15 is perfectly capable of handling any current Russian plane. If it wasn't there'd be no reason to keep it around. It's be better to buy an extra 100 Raptors.

The best idea is to get the Raptor in my opinion of course, but cost is an issue, so the F-15 will be faded out more slowly.

well, yea. you guys just answered your own questions, if the F-15 is so inferior, then why do they keep them, well, the F-22 is coming into operational status in September of this year, therefore, you can easily tell that they want to get rid of them, plus, just to clear a few things up, the F-15's weren't even fighting against Su-30MKI's, they were just fighting against Su-30MK's(M for Multirole, K for export) so, it was 3:1, well, to straighten things out, the F-15 wasn't just against the Su-30MK, it also went against 40 year old MiG-21Bison's, MiG-27's Mirage 2000's and i believe MiG-29's, so, it lost 9:1 against all those aircraft, not just the Flanker, which means, since these aircraft are all inferior to the Flanker, that it would demolish the F-15, also, the MiG-27 was a strike aircraft, a strike aircraft, so that means it didn't even fight against the F-15, all in all, the F-15 got its candy ass whooped, let me try and calculate the odds again.

outnumbered by 3 -3
AMRAAM only 1/3 range -3
weren't equipeed with AESA -2
the AWACS, wasn't really an AWACS -1

so, in total, it ends up to be 1:1, but this is againstall different aircraft, including Mirage 2000's, MiG-29's, MiG-21BIS's, Su-30MK's, and MiG-27 attack aircraft

but, take into account, that, thos aircraft:

all cost considerably cheaper +5
they're all export versions, which are downgraded +5

1:10, if you take into account economics, i've seen deals where the Su-30MK is $20-25 million, only one deal, that i've seen them be $50 million, and that was for only four of them, now, imagine if the F-15 went against the Su-30MKI alone, i won't even calculate that to save you americans from the embarrassment

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
Maybe you have a comprehension problem.

It said the Eagle had the advantage in the following areas: speed, radar, weapons and situational awarness, not to mention ECM, but the Eagle pilots could not use them in Cope India, and the AMRAAM was limited to 32km.

The Su-30MKI has the advantage in agility and high aero alpha, and that's it, do your research before you start to babble, you have no argument anyway just personal attacks, grow up kiddo.

[edit on 9-1-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

Well i don't have a comprehension problem...its just that you never gave any specifics till now....I checked them out...yes most sites indicate that the F-15 has a better max speed mach 2.5, while the su30 is of the Mach 2.3 class, radar and situational awareness is avionics if you didn't know and one can't compare because there is no data on the israeli fits of the Su30...in case of ECM the Su-30 has a rear fired missile amongst other things which these sites fail to mention...hence if both sides were suited up to max gera then the result would have been more meaningful..however since they weren't its stupid to say that either aircraft is superior to the other...Thats my point...

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
I don't think you even got the point, Waynos. The F-15 is perfectly capable of handling any current Russian plane. If it wasn't there'd be no reason to keep it around. It's be better to buy an extra 100 Raptors.

Actually the way the USAF is eyeballing things (According to AWST) to still keep the AESA equipped F-15 and use them in a cruise missle defence mode to backstop the F-22's in the event there are any leakers.

Originally posted by Dima
it didn't even fight against the F-15, all in all, the F-15 got its candy ass whooped, let me try and calculate the odds again.

:shk: dima, you have moved beyond fuzzy logic and entered a new realm which I shall dub "Ignorance Logic"

Putting aside the F-15 A/B/C/E's proven combat record I have in several other posts relayed the actually terms of the Cope India exersize in detail. However, in the spirit of "Ignorance Logic" you yet again have chosen to spew forth your rhetoric in absence of any coherent facts.

Yes the F-15's were defending against multiple types of planes. Remember if you will the SU-30's were the CAP and there was a strike package. In a real workd scenario without the limitations placed on the pilots, the outcome would have been different.

For starters, usuing the AMRAAMS actual range would have decimated the CAP allowing the F-15's to focus on the strike package which would have not had a chance.

No AWACS support wheras the IAF had one. Simulated or not, its the same.

No new radar. With ranges of 100 miles, that would have allowed the Eagles to manuver and take out the IAF from extreem BVR.

However in the Ignorance Logic world none of this matters. So as in the past, go forth on other discussion boards and ask for help to counter the arguments. maybe you can email Veink directly

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

So, we'll keep a useless plane around? Most enemies America would be fighting in the near future would have a Flanker. What good would a F-15 do if its outclassed by it?

Who said it was useless? Certainly not me. The fact that it has been overhauled by more than one fighter does not make it 'useless'.

I don't think you even got the point, Waynos. The F-15 is perfectly capable of handling any current Russian plane. If it wasn't there'd be no reason to keep it around. It's be better to buy an extra 100 Raptors.

I think you are the one who missed the point, if I wasn't clear enough I'll try again.

The F-15, in its current form, is a very potent fighter BUT it does not give the USAF the clear advantage over modern adversaries which it craves. The F-22 patently does give it this advantage BUT it is so overwhemingly expensive that the original plan to replace ALL the F-15's with it has had to be canned. As Fred T said, the F-15 will be a more 'secondary' fighter with the Raptor representibng the cutting edge.

Your argument that if the F-15 is outclassed then it would be better to can it and buy 100 extra Raptors ignores the fact that the USAF needs a certain number of aiircraft in order to maintain its 'presence' in the world. With 500 less fighters than it has now (ie 150 +100 Raptors minus 750 F-15's - round figures only for the sake of an example )this would be impossible.

The USAF would dearly love to replace all its F-15s with the F-22 because it knows the situation but the money is not there to do it. My view is that there is every possibility that this will happen over time with extra Raptors being bought over an extended period but it does not change the fact that the F-15 is past its sell by date, in terms of airframe and combat technology. Sure its avionics are as advanced as anybodies but if you put them in an F-4 it wouldn't make the F-4 better than the Flanker overall would it.

Your argument that if the F-15 is outclassed then it would be better to can it and buy 100 extra Raptors ignores the fact that the USAF needs a certain number of aiircraft in order to maintain its 'presence' in the world. With 500 less fighters than it has now (ie 150 +100 Raptors minus 750 F-15's - round figures only for the sake of an example )this would be impossible.

With improving deployability capabilities, and the amount of survivability F-22's have, the number of fighters doesn't need to be that high.

The USAF would dearly love to replace all its F-15s with the F-22 because it knows the situation but the money is not there to do it. My view is that there is every possibility that this will happen over time with extra Raptors being bought over an extended period but it does not change the fact that the F-15 is past its sell by date, in terms of airframe and combat technology. Sure its avionics are as advanced as anybodies but if you put them in an F-4 it wouldn't make the F-4 better than the Flanker overall would it.

I have never argued the F-15 itself is a better plane then the Flanker. BVR makes things like manueverability less important, and by a lot. The F-15 has the superior missiles, avionics, and radar. That makes it capable of competing with any fourth generation plane effectively.

You guys don't see anything do you if F-15 was supiriour than Sukoi then there would be no need for The U.S. to be making the F/22 AND they are making it because Rus and U.S. are schedgualed to go to WAR soon, The Yanks will try and use all type of technical gargane to convince you that the F-22 is not being made because Sukoi's pose a threat to the 15 and they'll go on and on about how the 15 is supiriour this IS NOTHING BUT "YANK PROPAGANDA DISINFORMATION"

[edit on 10-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 10-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 10-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

Disturbed deliverer

With improving deployability capabilities, and the amount of survivability F-22's have, the number of fighters doesn't need to be that high.

Do you work in the British Ministry of Defence by any chance, they been saying that very thing for forty years at least

Siberian Tiger;

Rus and U.S. are schedgualed to go to WAR soon,

Are you completely insane? I only ask because you seem to really believe this trash.

For anyone to ague that the F-15 wasn’t at a disadvantage and try to pin its actual combat performance on such a game is pure ignorance if you'd admit it or not.


It's well know that the F-15C has better avionics and weapons, hell, it even has superior ECM capabilities. It is however aging and within the last decade the USAF no longer has the ability to fly over anyone’s airspace and challenge their fighters hoping to catch a beer after that. Your wingman or even you stand a higher chance at hitting the silk road and catching a ride on an SH-60 then you did a decade ago.

Given the fact that the F-15C still has the advantage in its combat and defensive systems it still has the advantage in BVR. It's almost irrelevant on whether the fighter can turn or not at those distances unless he detects the missile and chooses to outrun it but doing a 180...

The U.S. wasn’t planning on even having the F-15C the front line badboy for this long when the F/A-22 was proposed in the 80s. The F/A-22 was meant to go into service in 99 and be in the F-15Cs current place in 2012. At that time there would be another ATF competition. This was all going to play out if the Cold War turned hot or if it continued, but it didn’t and the U.S. I guess you could say almost neglected its responsibility on maintaining its Airforce other then just random upgrades. That is why we pilots will not enjoy the level of near impunity that was enjoyed during the 80-90s...

The plan not is most likely to have F/A-22s clear the skies of the heavy beasts ('27, '30', '31 etc...) and have the F-15C, F-16C, and F/A-18E/F pick off the little snobs (J-10, '21, '27, '29 etc...) as they fall through the net or as the F/A-22 pilots want to conserve the weapons for the heavies.

Anyhow, to the point. One would be a complete fool to think that in the real world the F-15 would loose so disgracefully…

hey, whattabout the bf-109 and the fw-190, these planes are flown by the best fighter aces of the world ever and nothing breaks its record in terms of aerial kills and that's proven.

Do you work in the British Ministry of Defence by any chance, they been saying that very thing for forty years at least

I think you need a superior level of technology to do it.

Siberiantiger

You guys don't see anything do you if F-15 was supiriour than Sukoi then there would be no need for The U.S. to be making the F/22 AND they are making it because Rus and U.S. are schedgualed to go to WAR soon

The F-22 hasn't been made to counter anything Russia has in the air at this time. The F-22 would be overkill if that were the case. If were worried about Flankers we'd have put out a plane that's a fraction of the Raptor in cost. We'd most likely have just put out F-35's.

The Raptor is being made to guarentee overwhelming superiority against ALL opponents (which has more to do with Western Europe then Russia at this point), and the ability to break through the most advanced air defenses.