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Conspiracists around the World, Remember This:

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posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 09:47 AM
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Whether you are in North or South, America, Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa, Atlantis, at Sea, or on the International Space Station, most of us here share a common bond in that we believe a conspiracy of some sort (or we simply like reading other people's conspiracies). As such, I believe it would not be out of line to say that most of you distrust (if not hate) the government, the police, the military, and so forth...

But please, remember that not everyone is a part of The New World Order, the Illuminati, the Gnomes of Zurich, or whomever you choose to think is winning the great game.

This holiday season, there will be men from your country, fighting in place of you, desperately trying to stay alive. Whether or not you agree with your country's (or others) foreign policies, wars, or such, please remember these brave men and women, while you are warm and safe in your homes, with your family. Try to remember that they are human beings too, who, for one reason or another, took an oath to fight with their lives, and lay down their lives, at the decision of those who lead them. Try to remember that they have families as well, some of whom will never see them again. That instead of eggnog, spiced rum, and mulled wine, they will be eating military rations, or perhaps even dirt, should they meet their fate out on the battlefield. Try to remember that instead of being warm and cozy, around the fireplace, surrounded by their kin, they are out there, in harsh conditions, under fire, surrounded by bodies, just trying to keep their friends from being shot in the back, and maybe themselves at the same time. Try to remember that the best present they will get, is to someday return home alive and uninjured, and there is no guarentee that anyone will receive this gift. Regardless of your feelings about the military, try to remember them, and what they are going through, so that you don't have to.

This holiday season, there will be men and women from your country, patrolling the streets, on foot, on horseback, or on some sort of vehicle... they are not doing this for pleasure, they are not doing it to make anyone's life miserable. They are doing it because someone has to. The life of a policeman is a thankless one, with long hours, poor pay, and almost no appreciation. They are asked to enforce the peace, the law, and then reviled and sued when they do. While you are opening your presents, or sharing a kiss under the mistletoe, they alone will try to keep safe the cold and empty streets, with the knowledge that at any moment they may have to throw themselves in harms way. At best, they spend the holidays alone and cold in their occupation, the only injury they take being the harsh words of someone who couldn't be bothered to adhere to traffic laws. At worst, their shield will be delivered to their family along with a folded flag. Regardless of your feelings for the police, try to remember them, and what they are going through, so that you don't have to.

Some of you with a colder heart may reply that these people chose their occupation, and there is no reason for them to deserve your sympathy. To that I say others chose this route as well... Doctors, Nurses, Firemen, Repairmen, and all the others who keep the infrastructure sound, such as the airlines, the trains, the busses, the cab drivers... would you keep your sympathy from them as well? Would you scoff at the Fireman because he chose to spend his holiday season saving the lives of others, and putting out burning houses?

Some of you with a paranoid heart may reply that these people are all a part of the problem, that they are all a part of the conspiracy of your choice. To that I reply that every King has pawns. And not every pawn thinks itself so. At the end of the day, they are as human as you or I, and whether or not they were tricked, they are doing something they most likely had good intentions for, and are suffering so that you do not have to (yet).

To the rest of you who make excuses this holiday season, not to remember those who give theirs up to help you, I ask this: How dangerous will your holiday be? But more importantly, what does it cost, to spare these good-hearted people a brief "thank you"?

I would like to propose this thread for our ATS members worldwide to state a rememberance of someone who is out there so you don't have to be.

[edit on 12/17/2004 by thelibra]




posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 09:55 AM
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I think this sums it for you:


You have voted thelibra for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.


Excellent post...



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 10:09 AM
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Aw, thanks man. But I didn't do it for the votes... honestly. I just wanted to let all those people know that someone, somewhere, does care...



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 10:09 AM
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Good post

Thank you thelibra - you are right, that we shuld take the distance and think about what is really important....



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 11:24 AM
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This holiday season, there will be men from your country, fighting in place of you, desperately trying to stay alive. Whether or not you agree with your country's (or others) foreign policies, wars, or such, please remember these brave men and women, while you are warm and safe in your homes, with your family. Try to remember that they are human beings too





Some of you with a colder heart may reply that these people chose their occupation





To that I say others chose this route as well... Doctors, Nurses, Firemen, Repairmen, and all the others who keep the infrastructure sound, such as the airlines, the trains, the busses, the cab drivers... would you keep your sympathy from them as well? Would you scoff at the Fireman because he chose to spend his holiday season saving the lives of others, and putting out burning houses?



While i agree with you that these men and women currently engaged in combat are human biengs, i disagree with your claims that those of us who beleive they chose their occupation whilst fully aware of the occupational hazards are coldhearted. This simply isnt true. I have a great deal of sympathy for them and their families also. Shame on you for thinking we dont. Your Taxi driver comparison is also completely dysfunctional, a Taxi driver isnt an armed combatant, none of the proffesions you listed apart from Police Officer even came close to comparing to the duties of an armed Soldier in a warzone. Please note your Fireman analogy is also flawed as a Fireman puts out fires, he doesnt start them.

Im not going to bother pointing out in detail the multiple guilt trip techniques you have used in your rather condescending thread. As The existance of them is apparent enough. I will not under any circumstances be made to feel guilty because of soldiers dying "so i didnt have to". The guilt falls on the group of polititians, or the people behind the curtain who sent them to a foreign land, on a whim, under false pretenses, to war.

I didnt see you mention one civilian or foreign national murdered in Iraq or Afghanistahn, Or even an insurgent for that matter. R.I.P to the dead on all sides of this pointless conflict and Merry Christmas or Merry [Insert equivalent festivity here] to EVERY single poor bastard still caught up in it.















[edit on 17-12-2004 by MERC]



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 12:29 PM
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They have my thanks, understanding, and respect. I agree with you: shame on anyone who finds an excuse not to thank them.



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 02:16 PM
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thelibra, although I don't think that I'm a conspiracist... well at least not in secrecy, as I do some social activism and community work, I think this is wayyy too naive to have such sympathy for police agents.

When one of your relatives, an unarmed Black guy, will get beaten to death by 5 cops, you'll learn to see things in a different way....
I know, that's exactly what happened to me earlier this year. And such a thing is not an isolated case... there are many cases of Black or homeless people getting savagely beaten and even killed just because they did a little trouble. Just look into a local newspaper and you'll end up seeing one of these stories after a few days, or a fews weeks of searching. Authorities have no respect for the rights and liberties of the people whatsoever, all that they care about is that people get on the line and pay their bills.

And yes, people DO have a choice to work or not to work as police agents. They can go for becoming a teacher, or fireworker, or accountant, or anything else respectable, but for some reason, they CHOOSE to work for the authority. Imputability and sadism are what motivates these people into joining the fascist forces, it's not about sense of justice or whatever the crap they're trying to sell to them.

Here's a thread that might interest you:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by MERC
...i disagree with your claims that those of us who beleive they chose their occupation whilst fully aware of the occupational hazards are coldhearted. This simply isnt true. I have a great deal of sympathy for them and their families also. Shame on you for thinking we dont.


In point of fact, I never said that. Shame on you for not reading it for what it was. What perhaps I might not have made clear enough to one such as yourself is that just because they chose their occupation does not mean that we should ignore them this holiday season.


Originally posted by MERC
Please note your Fireman analogy is also flawed as a Fireman puts out fires, he doesnt start them.


I'd really like to know where I said that. Please quote it, as even re-reading it, I can't find any remote reference to firemen starting fires. Perhaps in Ray Bradbury's Farenheit 451, but not in my post. Please do not confuse my posts with the late Mr. Bradbury's works. It does him a discredit.


Originally posted by MERC
Im not going to bother pointing out in detail the multiple guilt trip techniques you have used in your rather condescending thread.


How bitter, resentful, and joyless is your life, that you can twist a post like this into some sort of attack on you personally? I hope you find some measure of happiness in your life. I really do. However, what you read is not remotely what I posted. I asked for nothing more than a moment to remember these people.


Originally posted by MERC
I didnt see you mention one civilian or foreign national murdered in Iraq or Afghanistahn, Or even an insurgent for that matter. R.I.P to the dead on all sides of this pointless conflict and Merry Christmas or Merry [Insert equivalent festivity here] to EVERY single poor bastard still caught up in it.

I went to great lengths to keep my post absent from the mention of any specific country for the specific reason of not taking sides. All countries with a military have soldiers elsewhere, be it a guard post on a Naval base somewhere off shore, a base camp in the mountains in a foreign land, or a desert in the middle east. The Iraqi and Afghan peoples are just as readily encouraged to take a moment to respect whomever they feel deserves it. This was not specifically for Americans, Europeans, or anyone. Hence my request for people worldwide, to appreciate their countrymen who cannot enjoy the holidays as they have. That was my only agenda, and anything more you read into it is the byproduct of your own inner turmoil.



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by Echtelion
I think this is wayyy too naive to have such sympathy for police agents.

When one of your relatives, an unarmed Black guy, will get beaten to death by 5 cops, you'll learn to see things in a different way...


So am I to understand then, that you endorse intolerance because of the actions of the few? Because some Muslim extremists killed thousands of innocent people one day, I should forever condemn all Muslims? Because some black men, over the course of history, have committed various crimes, I should forever condemn black men as criminals? Perhaps I should forever hate white people, because of the atrocities they committed, repeatedly, throughout history, against my tribe? Or maybe I should always assume that every high school kid is a dangerous psychopath, because there are so many reports of high-school stabbings and shootings?

There are gypsy cops. There are bad cops. There are cops that are people's worst nightmare, and some are even worse than the criminals that get death row. Who knows what made them that way, or caused them to take that road of self-destruction.

What I do know is that they are not the majority. They are by far the minority. The majority of policemen out there are decent, hard-working folks who do an unappreciated and dangerous job for very low pay.

I don't know what circumstances caused the officers to beat an unarmed black man. Perhaps they were racist pigs, and perhaps the man was being an agressive arse that needed to be controlled. Both are equally likely, and I have no facts to judge. Even if I did, I'm not there to call the situation, but I know that sometimes the only thing you can do is resort to force.


Originally posted by Echtelion
Authorities have no respect for the rights and liberties of the people whatsoever, all that they care about is that people get on the line and pay their bills.


I'm not going to get into a debate about The Man, or The Authority, or whomever handed you the nails for you to hang yourself on your cross. This post wasn't about Them. It was about the average Joes and Janes, from all walks of life, who are out there, giving up their holiday so that you can enjoy yours.

What's so hard to grasp, people? What the hell is wrong with you? Have you all become so hardened, cynical, and hateful, that you can't even bring yourself to spare so much as a thought in honor of those working (and dying) through the holidays?

For Chrissakes... you want to know where The Man comes from? He comes from the same bitter, hateful morass that produces people who can't even be bothered to sit quietly and let other people do the thanking for them.

It's not enough that you can't even bring yourself to thank those out there and away from their families during the holidays, you have to ruin the thanking from the rest of us who do thank them. If tearing down The Authority means putting people like you and MERC in charge, I'd sooner trust myself to a bullet in the head. You should be ashamed of yourselves. All I wanted to was a nice, peaceful thread, where people could post their remembrances of those they felt deserved it...and you can't even let that happen.

Happy F@#%ing Holidays

[edit on 12/17/2004 by thelibra]



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 02:57 PM
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Some of us who have a measure of understanding of our world and surroundings can see where your post is coming from, thelibra. You made a good post, don't let this troll drag you down. I'm out of way aboves for this month, but I'd cast mine for you.


dh

posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 07:00 PM
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We all have responsibility for what we do
Mostly we we try to renege on that
The frontline troops in Iraq and elsewhere have the responsibilty to refuse and mutiny
That would make them honourable
The Nuremberg judgements make it so



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 08:27 PM
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Good post, nice to see one person still has some morale that hasnt hit rock bottom.

Just remember that there just as many people on the other side fighting and dieing for a cause they believe in, we may not believe in it or understand it but we must respect it.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 02:27 AM
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For many policemen, the holiday season is one of the busiest times of year because of human nature. Yet they always seem to find time to take their personal time to volunteer for needy families, etc. And I don't mean to single out the cops - everyone else you mentioned is included.

Great post.



You have voted thelibra for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 09:04 AM
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I'd like to specifically thank Spec. Thomas Wilson of the Tennessee Army National Guard, who had the huevos to ask a vital question question of Rumsfeld.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 09:23 AM
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thelibra:

That is a beautiful post in honor of all those souls who, every day, do their duty to ensure the well-being of others.

To them all I salute, and to you too.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by thelibra
I'd like to specifically thank Spec. Thomas Wilson of the Tennessee Army National Guard, who had the huevos to ask a vital question question of Rumsfeld.


We might be going off topic here, but... was he the one asked by a reporter to ask said question?

There's a two line rule, isn't there? I think so, and I don't want to go off-topic so... even if my first sentence is true it wouldn't warrant any less respect from me to him; soldiers have a right to be concerned that they getting the best their government can provide... I think.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 12:47 PM
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You have voted MERC for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Libra, I am aware that your post was made from good intentions, however you spoiled it yourself by still using it as a vehicle for thinly veiled ethics ranting, patronizing analogies and snipes at those who don't believe in the invasion. So what did you expect?

Your cries of 'spoilers' and "cold-hearted" conspiracy nuts show the true reason for your post. It's the same old trick that the government uses: "Support the war on terror or you hate America." "If you hate war, then you hate Billie-Bob the soldier who was tragically killed in Iraq. And you hate his grieving family, too, you cruel, emotionless liberal!" That's so banal it's ridiculous, but people will snap up your propaganda anyway, so you'll get plenty of thumbs-ups and "Way-Above's" for this post. Power to ya.

Did you ever stop to think that those against unneccessary wars pursued by power-hungry, self-righteous governments actually care about their country and the soldiers that fight it's wars maybe even more than the person who believes in dying for the cause? This is not the sixties, and people are more educated about how wars work. No-one is crying "baby-killers" anymore, unless it's directed at the Whitehouse. Welcome to the 21st Century where many of us have woken up.

Let's have a look at how you've generalized and nicely lumped all those who disagree with with the party line into neat, uneducated, irrational groups.


As such, I believe it would not be out of line to say that most of you distrust (if not hate) the government, the police, the military, and so forth...
Uhh, no. You're out of line. I distrust governments, especially those who send soldiers to their deaths for false causes. My grandfather served in WW2 and I have friends in the police force. I do not hate my grandfather or my friends. I find your generalization and assumption of the simplicity of people's thought when they don't agree with you insulting. Oh, and btw, my grandfather doesn't believe in the Iraq invasion either.


But please, remember that not everyone is a part of The New World Order, the Illuminati, the Gnomes of Zurich, or whomever you choose to think is winning the great game.
Show me one post from an intelligent member that claims soldiers in wars are part of the Illuminati...


Regardless of your feelings about the military, try to remember them, and what they are going through, so that you don't have to.
So here's the real point. I'd still be eating Xmas pudding, drinking eggnog and giving my girlfriend a dose of Christmas cheer if the Iraq invasion hadn't gone ahead. The soldiers who fought in WW1 and WW2 were sent to defend our countries against a clear aggressor who had already invaded several countries and wasn't stopping. The soldiers who have been sent to Iraq to die are invading a country that posed no threat and had no WMDs as was claimed by the government that LIED to them.


Some of you with a colder heart may reply that these people chose their occupation, and there is no reason for them to deserve your sympathy.
No, I feel I have MORE sympathy for these people than you because they are dying for no reason. For you, they are soldiers who died tragically for the cause. For me, they are human beings who are dying for the cause of a tyrannical government. Which is more of a shame.


...and whether or not they were tricked, they are doing something they most likely had good intentions for, and are suffering so that you do not have to (yet).
You contradicted yourself in one sentence. The point is they were tricked, so they are not "suffering so that [we] don't have to". They are suffering so that Bush & Co.'s agenda, whatever it is, can be furthered.


My heart goes out to all the men and women who cannot have a Christmas as warm and cheery as the rest of us due to their occupation and circumstances, and I will think of them this Christmas. But I will not use them as vehicles for making a point on a conspiracy website forum board. Maybe I should make a thread stating "Let's all send a heartfelt cheer for the soldiers who are dying needlessly for a false war this Christmas. They are not as lucky as us."


I understand your sentiment, but we are not all as simple as you would believe, the situation in Iraq is not as simple as you would believe, and this forum is not the place for it.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by MERC


This holiday season, there will be men from your country, fighting in place of you, desperately trying to stay alive. Whether or not you agree with your country's (or others) foreign policies, wars, or such, please remember these brave men and women, while you are warm and safe in your homes, with your family. Try to remember that they are human beings too





Some of you with a colder heart may reply that these people chose their occupation





To that I say others chose this route as well... Doctors, Nurses, Firemen, Repairmen, and all the others who keep the infrastructure sound, such as the airlines, the trains, the busses, the cab drivers... would you keep your sympathy from them as well? Would you scoff at the Fireman because he chose to spend his holiday season saving the lives of others, and putting out burning houses?



While i agree with you that these men and women currently engaged in combat are human biengs, i disagree with your claims that those of us who beleive they chose their occupation whilst fully aware of the occupational hazards are coldhearted. This simply isnt true. I have a great deal of sympathy for them and their families also. Shame on you for thinking we dont. Your Taxi driver comparison is also completely dysfunctional, a Taxi driver isnt an armed combatant, none of the proffesions you listed apart from Police Officer even came close to comparing to the duties of an armed Soldier in a warzone. Please note your Fireman analogy is also flawed as a Fireman puts out fires, he doesnt start them.

Im not going to bother pointing out in detail the multiple guilt trip techniques you have used in your rather condescending thread. As The existance of them is apparent enough. I will not under any circumstances be made to feel guilty because of soldiers dying "so i didnt have to". The guilt falls on the group of polititians, or the people behind the curtain who sent them to a foreign land, on a whim, under false pretenses, to war.

I didnt see you mention one civilian or foreign national murdered in Iraq or Afghanistahn, Or even an insurgent for that matter. R.I.P to the dead on all sides of this pointless conflict and Merry Christmas or Merry [Insert equivalent festivity here] to EVERY single poor bastard still caught up in it.


[edit on 17-12-2004 by MERC]


~~

...condescending...
one might add? pandering,
but. i'm sure thelibra, had his/her heart in the right place...

even though i'm a cynic, i extend a 'muffled applause' on the post---

there, my holiday good-will
to all



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 05:31 PM
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No matter what anyones says,

Great post and ive also voted you for Way Above.



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 05:44 PM
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Hello.

Did I read that right, everyone has a chance to win an award here on ats, just by voting for who you like.

Great, now Ill be like a politician and look like Im doing a good job but really Im creating a farce all the while long!

Anway good thread!



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