Leaked? ... "Exec Amnesty in 24 States That Didn’t Join Lawsuit"

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: AazadanPerhaps an ethnic group that has taken up residence and wishes to preserve their culture? Why shouldn't they get that right?

How does learning English prevent them from doing that?

It doesn't, but if we're following the idea that regulatory actions should be minimal you need to show why everyone needs to know English and what the unimaginable horrors are if some people choose to speak their own language instead.

Why can't they learn English and speak their own language? Do you think people should be able to go to France and institute their own language so any French people entering that territory have no ability to communicate with their new "French" brethren?

The horror is that Americans can not communicate with each other. I just experienced this in LA. What is the unimaginable horror of ensuring all Americans can communicate with each other?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Aazadan

Is it ok for an ethnic group say hispanic, to make their language the official language of a state?

That's up to each state to decide. If a state wished to have an official language, and they had such a large number of spanish speakers that they wanted to make spanish the official language, why is that not ok?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Why can't they learn English and speak their own language? Do you think people should be able to go to France and institute their own language so any French people entering that territory have no ability to communicate with their new "French" brethren?

Nothing says they can't. If most business is conducted in French, there's already an economic and social reason to learn French. If you're a free country though, why should you force them to learn French?

a reply to: FarleyWayne

Call me ignorant, but doesn't this go against the whole mandate of equal application of the law? If you can't do it in one state, then all should be stayed until all can be applied equally.

a reply to: FarleyWayne

An interesting legal argument. I know at the federal appeals level if an appeals circuit makes a ruling that ruling only applies to the states within that specific circuit. The ruling can be used by other appeals circuits as a precedence should similar cases come through those circuits.

inconsistent appeals circuit rulings shoots the issue to the Supreme Court.

Here are where the states are:

States who filed against Obama's executive order:
Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia and Wisconsin.
In support of the executive actions:
Washington state was joined by attorneys general from California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Mexico, New York, Oregon and Vermont, and the District of Columbia.

Non committal on either side:
Those 12 states are Alaska, Colorado, Delaware, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Virginia and Wyoming.

Read more at issuehawk.com...

Even though this is from Breitbart, I believe it:

As The Hill noted, “Attorneys General from California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Vermont and the District of Columbia” joined Washington state Attorney General Bob Ferguson in a “friend of the court” brief.


The 12 states, citing a left-wing Center for American Progress paper, alleged that Obama’s executive amnesty will bring the states more tax revenue and claimed “that the states don’t have the correct legal standing needed to file a challenge because of those benefits.”

www.breitbart.com...

But this quote here really peeves me:

The administration claims the policy is “challengeable by no plaintiff, reviewable by no court, and subject to no public input,” lawyers for the states said in an 88-page filing.

www.bloomberg.com...

My final thought is, remembering the Tower of Babel story, divide and conquer except in a reverse spin. Let polarization be the dividing strength against unity. Under the great masquerade of all for one and one for all.

a reply to: Aazadan

But that's not the way it works if a group tries to make English the official language they get blasted 10 ways to Sunday for being racist.

Yet when a group that refuses to integrate into Florida pushes a measure to make Spanish the official state language not a peep out of the media.

If the game was equal it wouldn't bother me as much.


I have a big problem with people leaving a pest hole going to a new country and then proceed to try and force their new home to be like the hole they just left.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
If the game was equal it wouldn't bother me as much.

But isn't the goal to create equality in opportunity, not equality in condition? The ability for anyone to conduct business in any language they choose provides equal opportunity to all.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Irishhaf
If the game was equal it wouldn't bother me as much.

But isn't the goal to create equality in opportunity, not equality in condition? The ability for anyone to conduct business in any language they choose provides equal opportunity to all.

In my experiences, I have found that it divides people and causes resentment. Around here, it is the Spanish speaking people who are often catered to, even though we have a lot of Africans, Asians etc. When the Spanish speakers are catered to, they are resented because they are the only ones being catered to. Can you understand this?

Can you also understand what it feels like for a citizen to lose a job opportunity in his own Country because he doesn't speak Spanish, even though the job has nothing to do with international dealings or being a translator? How do you think these people feel?

I have personally worked beside immigrants both legal and illegal. When the Spanish speakers spoke Spanish most of the day even though they understood and spoke English, others were resentful.

Common sense to me would be to have English as the official language. Like I have said before, hundreds of languages are spoken here. When a new immigrant comes here and learns English, how can we expect for them to learn another language as well? If all cultures that came here legally can speak English, the illegals should not be special and placed above all others. I find it rude and disrespectful.

Would you move to another Country where they spoke a foreign language and expect them to change their stores, restaurants, places of employment etc. just for you and others like you who weren't respectful enough to learn the language of the land? Honestly, would you expect another Country to change for you? Well, we don't want to change everything just because one group refuses to learn like everyone else. I would prefer to see people united, not divided.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Irishhaf
If the game was equal it wouldn't bother me as much.

But isn't the goal to create equality in opportunity, not equality in condition? The ability for anyone to conduct business in any language they choose provides equal opportunity to all.

An equal opportunity for all? When they choose one foreign language and hundreds of other languages are spoken here, where does the equality come in? When all our legal immigrants speak English, why cater to one group above all others who refuse to?

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: SkipperJohn
a reply to: Night Star

I tell you what. I went into walmart and truth is, I could not find an employee who spoke English. I guess I am going to have to learn Spanish just to go freaking shopping.

I am guessing that one of your complaints about "illegals" would be that they take jobs "Americans" could have and drive down wages. But here you are shopping at Wal-Mart that specializes in destroying other businesses and driving down wages. Hmmm.

It could be because they just plain ol broke the law. How come some people never bring that up? Just sayin.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Nothing says they can't. If most business is conducted in French, there's already an economic and social reason to learn French. If you're a free country though, why should you force them to learn French?

No one forced them to come here. No one forced them to learn anything. Free does not mean free from obligation, free from the law, free to do whatever you want without consequence.

There is no economic or social reason to learn French if the entire town is filled with people who illegally immigrated from Tunisia who desire to replicate Tunisia in France. If you want to live in Tunisia live in Tunisia. You have yet to counter a single point I have made.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Irishhaf
If the game was equal it wouldn't bother me as much.

But isn't the goal to create equality in opportunity, not equality in condition? The ability for anyone to conduct business in any language they choose provides equal opportunity to all.

Except the point you responded to was it's racist for a white American of European descent to desire English, and not racist for Mexicans to desire Spanish.

That is not equality in opportunity or condition.

originally posted by: Night Star
In my experiences, I have found that it divides people and causes resentment. Around here, it is the Spanish speaking people who are often catered to, even though we have a lot of Africans, Asians etc. When the Spanish speakers are catered to, they are resented because they are the only ones being catered to. Can you understand this?

It's up to the local businesses and citizens to cater to that language, if the populace wishes to embrace the language is it wrong? Their desire to speak Spanish is equal to your desire to speak English. Doesn't it then make sense that it should be up to that locality to determine what language they speak? If you speak English in an area that is catering to Spanish, how is that any different from a person speaking Spanish in an area where everyone speaks English?

Can you also understand what it feels like for a citizen to lose a job opportunity in his own Country because he doesn't speak Spanish, even though the job has nothing to do with international dealings or being a translator? How do you think these people feel?

I can actually because it has happened to me.

Would you move to another Country where they spoke a foreign language and expect them to change their stores, restaurants, places of employment etc. just for you and others like you who weren't respectful enough to learn the language of the land? Honestly, would you expect another Country to change for you? Well, we don't want to change everything just because one group refuses to learn like everyone else. I would prefer to see people united, not divided.

I wouldn't expect them to change their culture, but if you move to a country and there's already a group of your own ethnic culture that is using their own language, what's wrong with joining that group if that's your choice?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Except the point you responded to was it's racist for a white American of European descent to desire English, and not racist for Mexicans to desire Spanish.

That is not equality in opportunity or condition.

Why force a language on someone? Let them learn what they want. If they choose to use a language that inhibits their success that is their choice. That works both ways.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Why force a language on someone? Let them learn what they want. If they choose to use a language that inhibits their success that is their choice. That works both ways.

Because they don't want to deal with America. They want to deal with Mexico. They want to turn part of America into Mexico. I, as an American citizen, should not have no ability to communicate with other American citizens. No one should have the right to come to my country and try to turn it into the country they fled because of how bad it was. If you want to live in Mexico live in Mexico. If you want to live in American then live in America. There is no forcing, it's their choice.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Because they don't want to deal with America. They want to deal with Mexico. They want to turn part of America into Mexico. I, as an American citizen, should not have no ability to communicate with other American citizens. No one should have the right to come to my country and try to turn it into the country they fled because of how bad it was. If you want to live in Mexico live in Mexico. If you want to live in American then live in America. There is no forcing, it's their choice.

Want to know why people do that? It's not out of disrespect, it's because people repeat what is familiar. Let me take an example of Americans doing this to themselves. LA has been seeing something of a mass exodus of tech jobs to Austin. When it started Austin had reasonable public services, low taxes, and a solid budget. Since the people from LA have moved there however the city has suffered from people bringing the California tax, spend, and tax again mindset with them.

The process you're speaking of goes much deeper than language and instead has to do with assimilation. When a group feels as if they can't properly assimilate into a society, usually due to discrimination they form their own ethnic areas. If they speak another language, that language will come into heavy use in that area. The fix for this is to treat people like they're actually equals. Invite them into society and eventually they'll join. Forcing a language on an ethnic group actually just makes them feel even more like outsiders because it wasn't done out of choice. And that leads to groups that don't assimilate at all.

a reply to: Aazadan

And if they vote to make Spanish the official language, isn't that forcing their language and culture on to me?

Since I was raised in an American home with English as the language?

a reply to: Aazadan

Somewhat true somewhat false. If we put up road blocks to them learning English then you would be correct. If we try to make it easy you would not be. If someone refuses to go to school because they don't sit at the cool kids table, then letting them not go will never lead to them sitting there. Sometimes people need a loving push.

Regardless, if something is UnConstitutional, then states that don't care can't do it before the courts have a chance to stop them. That's not how it works.

ETA: I would say the same thing if I was a Texan and Cali people tried to turn Texas into Cali. If you love Cali so much, go back. If you came to Texas because it was better, keep it the same.

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: FarleyWayne

So now the Constitution's validity and interpretation is based state by state? It's no longer all encompassing?

Nope! In Obama's eyes...there is no Constitution. Enemy of the state.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: SkipperJohn
a reply to: Night Star

I tell you what. I went into walmart and truth is, I could not find an employee who spoke English. I guess I am going to have to learn Spanish just to go freaking shopping.

I am guessing that one of your complaints about "illegals" would be that they take jobs "Americans" could have and drive down wages. But here you are shopping at Wal-Mart that specializes in destroying other businesses and driving down wages. Hmmm.

Spoken like someone who doesn't have to watch their pennies. I hate Walmart...but sometimes I have to shop there to save money because the Obama economy has caused my income to go down, while causing my expenses to go up. So...if you want to blame someone for why Walmart is a success...look toward the Whitehouse.

originally posted by: Night Star
a reply to: SkipperJohn

You do not have to learn to speak Spanish to go shopping. Let the store know you will be shopping elsewhere where their employees speak the language of the land.

But if amnesty gets passed...the illegals will WANT Spanish speaking employees.