Why focusing on the "now" and not believing in free-will is destructive

a reply to: wasaka

Guten Morgen- Fine, I'll argue.. I am indeed a "Creator" as I create the nook I exist in. If I'm not a creator then I can place "blame" on others/ other things. It is the 'Free Will' to 'create' in Your mind the world in which You operate from. Aren't You typing the words, ergo creating a dialogue?

To wit: "We do have inside us the power of 'Free Will'; which the Creator placed in us.." Who typed this? Wouldn't that make each Self a sliver of Thee Creator? Then at the time of death/passing wouldn't We then meld back from whence We came?

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

Have a nice day.

a reply to: arpgme

I'm not refering to you or Enlightenedone but those few others on this forum trying to say there is only now, individuality and free-will are illusion.

That is what I was assuming, your OP being a response to something you should have mentioned in your OP as it sounded like instead of speaking a full sentence you just started in the middle and assumed readers would know what what was at the beginning.

Another point,

if its a few members on this forum why start a such a vague thread for all readers instead of sending the few you have in mind a simple PM.

God's intentions are good but things can be misused like water to drown someone or just to quench their thirst.

Only in ones unstable mind can they speak of Gods intentions.

Reading your all over the place threads that contradict each other at times by your opinions in said threads just shows a lost person trying to find something.

AT times what you post sounds like you have found what you are looking for but then another thread comes and you seem completely in the dark.

claiming that God is all so God is love and apathy is an approval of apathy annot caring for others.

Well in the holy books God is described being all many times in many different ways, alpha and omega and what not.

This is only your confused perception of what other mean, not an approval of anything if others believe God is everything.

If God is awareness then God knows all of our feelings now all of our suffering and joy. That means God would still have Love/Empathy so even if you believe in the God called "now"; "reality" it still proves the God of Love/Empathy is the one true God.

Now knowing this, why would anyone say careless, psychopath, non-empathetic is ok or God's nature?

If God is awareness is God not aware of carelessness, non empathy and what not?

I cant speak for God or what Gods nature might be but If I am to believe in God being all and not limiting God to one side of a spectrum and that side being the one I want God to be on then yes its Gods nature to be evil as much as it is to be good.

The concepts of good and evil are in the minds of people and based on a person perception of the world around them.

How can this be so if God is awareness and is one with all of our pain and suffering?

a psychopath or a careless person is not a part of Gods awareness in your opinion?


Would God be aware of the cause of pain and suffering?

Would that cause exist if there was no carelessness or what not?

a reply to: JimNasium

Fine, I'll argue.... ur.... I mean conceed.

Yes, the Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

a reply to: arpgme

Was it your choice to have free-will? If not, we don't have free will.

There really is no other choice but to focus on the now. Even focusing on the future or past is happening in real time.

originally posted by: wasaka

originally posted by: JimNasium
a reply to: arpgme

Guten Tag- I don't want to seem argumentative .......... but,

How 'bout: We are ALL "creators" working our way back from whence We came, The One Infinite Creator..

namaste

I don't want to seem argumentative .......... but...

You are not the Creator. Nor am I.
You are not a co-creator. Nor am I, nor is anyone else I know.
Yes, we can be creative. I am, most people I know are.
However, there is only one Creator.

Christians claim Jesus (LOGO/WORD) was a Co-Creator,
but that is a theology I don't cling to or care to debate.

The bottom-line is we humans don't create squat.
We can take raw material and make things. That's it.
We are clever, but that's all we are.
Being clever is as far as it goes.

People talk about being "Co-Creators with God" but
I find that talk to be complete non-sense!

We do have inside us the power of free-will; which the Creator
placed in us. That is the authority we have (given to us by God).
BUT that power (to act according to our own will) is not a freedom
that so many think it is. Actually, free-will is what keeps us
trapped in hell (the physical). We don't want to return to heaven
because of the ego-attachment to our body, our car, our wife
girlfriend, jobs, friends, family, whatever...

This power of free-will can set us free of the world of ego
and attachment, BUT ONLY went we empty ourselves of
those things which tempt and beguile. Our free-will is
weak and unspiritual, driven by ego-desires. It keeps
us struggling in the physical and fearful of heaven.

In short, free will is a double edge sword. It keeps us
in hell, but it is also our only way out.

Choose Life.

How do you know we're not God? How do you know God isn't our creation? How do you know that God exists independently of us and created us or anything?

a reply to: arpgme

Committing yourself to a belief, faith or opinion (BFOs) (other than following this one) is a futile exercise. If you observe what is there, as opposed to supplementing what is presented with unfounded mystifying biases, it is very clear. The Universe wishes to unfold, complexify and mature. To evolve.

You gotta simplify the scenario because your (our) brains are too small. To throw in god, demons, philosophy, prophets, mysticism and other assorted BS into the stew pot because you FEEL like it, is just dumb and unneeded. If a supreme something wants you to, know, do or jump around like a flea, so you shall. If he doesn't want you to know of him or his plans, so you shant. We/YOU/I are not that important unless we are supposed to be. We are no more important than a species killing virus. So enough about knowing anything other than that which is seen or experienced commonly and in common.
(Due to some really strange personal experiences, I do think that the overall system is beyond normal, everyday ken. Since no system can know itself completely, I can easily concur with a greater reality containing this one. This only confirms my statement about hubris being the bane of these arguments and those who retain BFOs.)

The 'now' is how the Universe keeps track of things because it needs order to do what it does. It wants to change. You can't change if there is no 'now'. If you want change it must be from the current order.

Free will and what appears to be randomness are the expression of statistical allowances by the Universe. It allows for these changes and as long as paradoxes (notice how few these are?) are not engendered we can bend the future.

It's the only reason that it allows us to have compactified smarts. It seems to want quicker results. I do not why. But since blessed with this energy drain on my shoulders, I'll try one.

When the Singularity emerges, the Universe might bring down the curtain. Maybe it has gotten bored?

originally posted by: Tangerine

How do you know we're not God? How do you know God isn't our creation?
How do you know that God exists independently of us and created us or anything?

Because my avatar told me so.

Albert Einstein: “A human being is part of a whole, called by us the ‘Universe’ —a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts, and feelings, as something separated from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

originally posted by: arpgme
1) If there is only "now", one reality, no individuals then there is no responsibility. The greedy who hurt others have no responsibility since individuality is just "illusion".

There's 7 plus billion realities and growing everyday expanding like the universe, we tap into someone else's reality learn from their experience identify with their experience and combined with our own can empathize with them and become one in their experience... the more you do this the more you become whole, the more wisdom is there... eventually you cannot see a difference between desire in you and the desire in another for as someone once said salt has but one taste... and he was pointing directly to reality, even though everyone that tastes something with salt in it? too salty, not salty enough... this is giving salt more than one taste 7 billion plus all tasting salt differently. when it is just salt, it is what it is until someone defines it, good, bad, healthy, un-healthy ad-infinitum. does any of our judgement of salt change salt? NO that's the reality of salt it is what it is until you make it something different. Thats oneness and why we are not separate in true reality.. but until the delusion of self and and other supported by ego is let go? You're going to taste salt differently. that's the true nature of samsara getting tasted not release from samasara. concept and experience can be hard to distinguish, behind the veil. it's like rote learning or memorization with no comprehension... sure you can pass the test, but do you know what the hell any of it means when actually applied? Gotta walk it talk is empty monkey chatter of a bunch of concepts. It's not easy to walk it. sometimes you do need faith, but once the leg is better? or you have direct experience? you don't need the crutch any more... the boat is on the other shore right? stop dragging the boat across the desert once you cross. Do you think any accepted prophet wanted a bunch of sheep to follow and squabble 1000's of years after they were dead? Hell no, they drew a map to become EQUAL to them not a slave to them... if slavery were their goal? Why would they preach freedom and love? The temple is your body... do you think Christ throwing money changers out of the temple meant an actual temple? or the greed that could come with accumulating it like so many evangelist living in mansions and driving fancy cars while people that can barely scrape by are sending these people on on a wing and a prayer hoping for a miracle? Shame on them up and down, they could put that money back into their church and their community, so no one would go hungry... but have they kicked the money changers out of the temple? Nope that's why they are in 15 million dollar mansions with 3 Rolls Royce's. Those are the wolves pulling wool over their faithful sheep followers eyes. Those are the real serial killers, because millions go to their graves mislead like lemmings into the abyss... might as well not went to church at all, raise you hands and wave them to Jesus while I spread my arms like I am he on the cross... thats a false idol. He doesnt want you as an equal why? exactly what you said greed.

2) No free-will means its ok to lie, cheat, and kill and to even promote such behavior since they can just say they had no free-will. What better excuse for a serial-killer?

Oh there's free will, if there wasn't... you couldn't change your mind, you couldn't hold a natural function like pooping in because you're not near a bathroom, your whole life would be like an autonomic reflex like blinking or breathing... what would the point of living be then? What lessons would there be to learn? Why would you choose to keep making the same mistakes over and over expecting a different outcome? Science doesn't do that with laws... but if it hasn't done it thoroughly and peer reviewed and unbiased it's later found wrong... so they keep repeating and repeating it against every possible angle and if the effect remains the same its called what? Truth a law something that cannot be changed. it is what it is. We are our own hypothesis until there's only truth left enlightenment. fortunately? You decide how much you want to chase your own tail making the same mistakes until you learn a lesson to do what? Stop. You decide how far down the rabbit hole of philosophy goes, but you're going to chase that white rabbit til the queen of death says off with your head, then you get another life and form because your energy jumps to try it all again. That's why human life is so precious, we have free will more than any other living creature on this planet. Because we can make a conscious effort to learn. if you don't teach your dog to stop crapping on the carpet is the dog gonna make a conscious effort to learn not to do that itself? MU!

3) If God is Now and Reality then God is a liar, deceiver, and selfish ego since reality contains within it such unkind behavior. With a god like that who needs to believe in the devil?

With free will to choose. who is deceiving you? who is selfish? who is a liar and who has a selfish ego? We attribute all these things to what god is and isn't we give god words, we give god legs, we give god arms. but what do we do? We speak boas hate and intolerance with gods mouth, we don;t walk a gods path, we don't embrace everyone as god would, and we certainly don't give god understanding when we hate. So is god really there? You make god exist you carry god along but god is in your image because you are in gods image its a damn mirror look in it. God can create something from nothing... pick up a pen a draw something... congratulations, you just created something from nothing... god can destroy ever break a glass or anything else? congratulations you've got the same power. God is omnipotent, live through a million lifetimes and remember them you're gonna know a lot of crap, god is everywhere yah since we are all already enlightened but can't bloody see our nose in spite of our true face? we cant recognize god in others, except when someone does what we attribute to god like... because honey they are walking it... not talking it, same way with satan problem is... when we see something we hate in others? it's usually a direct reflection back at you because where is that hate originating? In your heart at that moment isn't it?but we are neither inherently good nor inherently evil and thats why theres something called redemption, should you ask forgiveness alone where no one else can hear you asking? thats self serving, thats self placating, you are not apologizing to anyone but yourself your own ego to make it ok... want true redemption? take responsibility for the actions you have done with you own mouth, two arms and two legs and seek out that person or persons you have wronged without any excuses suck it up and apologize... not IF I have hurt you, but WHEN I hurt you, and did THIS to you, it was wrong and I am sorry thats what guilt is... its a signal to your ass to go apologize to the person(s) you hurt directly. Either they are going to forgive or they aren't but you TRIED. IF is insincere.

If you don't believe in god? Have we been talking about god at all? Who's giving god legs and arms and a mouth and cognitive dissonance? A whole hell of a lot of people so god might as well exist since people carry out things in gods name.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

It's sad how many spiritual people are accepting the "God is also evil" belief. This deception is happening so quickly. God is Holy Good Pure Benevolence, if not why call it God?

Duality is true. There is peace and war, healing and destroying and I know what Spirit I choose to be One with LIFE. I hope people choose Spirit of Life instead of what opposes it with ignorance darkness pain and suffering.

God please help these people who fell for that belief to corrupt Virtue like empathy. God is better than the beast which appears as both light and dark to deceive and destroy.

If God is all then there is imperfection in God which means it isn't God at all. Please do not be deceived by the beast light and darkness instead of Perfect Light of God with no darkness.

Darkness are lower energies which Fell from (left) God The Highest.

a reply to: arpgme

i'm sorry but it's difficult to understand what you're talking about in some of these posts. It appears that you've decided that "now" is bad and is in conflict with "free will". I haven't been able to figure out from your posts what you mean by either now or free will because you don't seem to define them as others do and haven't clearly explained what you mean by them and how they are mutually exclusive. Could you give it one more try and be precise in your definitions and explanation?

a reply to: arpgme

It's sad how many spiritual people are accepting the "God is also evil" belief.

how many are accepting that?

Why does what another believe sadden you or make you happy, are your own not beliefs not enough you need to speculate what others believe and make your self sad because others might believe differently?

It saddens me that you are you so conflicted, maybe forget what others believe and focus on your own, if you think darkness is ignorance pain and suffering then I really cant say anything to help you see the light you speak of that you say you choose to believe, you might want believe in what you write but you don't, that is why you keep repeating yourself over and over in as many different possible ways over all you threads, you are looking for confirmation on the worst place to look for it, the internet.

God is Holy Good Pure Benevolence, if not why call it God?

Who has said God is not?

Just because some believe God is everything which is everything including what you say is evil doesn't mean God is not holy good pure benevolence it just means God is everything, its not limiting God like you are.

Your prayers

God please help these people who fell for that belief to corrupt Virtue like empathy

are insulting in a way, Who are these people?

The posters your OP was a reply too?

What I read that you post paints a pretty picture that you have no idea what free will is, what oneness is, what Duality is, what anything really is.

The painting shows confusion and a conflicted mind not knowing what to believe, deceiving itself by posting what they choose to believe in and calling those that might have different beliefs, beliefs in a darkness as being lower.

I just hope the God you believe in doesn't judge you in such a way.

If God is all then there is imperfection in God which means it isn't God at all.

Well your perception of God is limited unlike mine where God encompasses everything we think and know now and in the past and everything new we think of and come to know in the future.

Imperfection is reality is it not, Is God not the creator of the universe and the reality we perceive?

To many God isn't, but seeing as you speak for God and Jesus quite often you have a belief in them but limit them to what you want them to be and not what they are to others,

Maybe Tangerine is correct by saying this

How do you know God isn't our creation?

The God you tend to speak for is your own creation as I don't believe in such a limited God.

I have said it before to you that if one reads whats written, God said (in a certain Book) let there be light.

God in my opinion is darkness and nothingness, a oneness with no opposite, he created the light in which evil can be seen and done. Its the light that allows sight, in the darkness you cant see and what you cant see doesn't exist (metaphorically speaking) the light was created to bring forth free will, a test of choices for living beings.

You choose to limit things and speak for things that cannot be spoken for or limited in my opinion.

Darkness are lower energies which Fell from (left) God The Highest.

That's nice,

However Darkness came before energy, light brought all the concepts we have and allowed us to experience them.

All concepts, fear and love, creation and destruction.

You came from the darkness and you will go back once you pass your exams of life, however limiting things only limits you and your choices that might or might not be the answers you are searching for.

However I have a little feeling when you get the answers you will forget them and start running in circles like you have been for so many years on ATS.

a reply to: earthling42

How can we focus on 'now' while we are 'now'? are you separated from this very moment?

You are separated, because you paused and thought and typed hoping someone would read your post in the now + x minutes time. Its great thinking of the now, helps not to worry about a future that no-one can predict. Having said that, the future is somewhat predictable on some level. My keyboard and these 4 walls will still be here at least for the next few years.

The other option is that we are not separated, you and me the now and the future are all one. Here I go talking to myself again.

If anyone has ever appreciated the manure of nonsense, I've added to the flower bed called ATS, could we have some compassion for arpgme or if arpgme has helped you in some way tend your clipping you took away from the garden? Have enough compassion to be softer in approach? All the affirmation we have given arpgme through stars or accolades in a post, has made arpgme feel good and happy in the past... and there's nothing wrong with that, but being attached to those feelings of acceptance, can cause what we have been seeing here... that does not seem to be in arpgme's character at all. I am pretty sure we all know how bad not having the fix of acceptance can be and feel at some point in our lives... remembering that can bring us empathy to this situation and feel for arpgme.

I came on strong with an admonishment, here and I am pretty sure my thread about how we could change the current system sparked what we are seeing here... I am sorry for that arpgme but if there was no fuel for the spark to cling too? What would burn my friend? I cannot apologize for the fuel. Regardless, fanning flames on the blaze can cause it to spread further than ATS into arpgme's life, causing self destruction and pain. My admonishment was to snap arpgme back to arpgme's chosen path using the same philosophies I have seen arpgme post. Yes, what arpgme has been saying here makes arpgme seem like a hypocrite when held up against all we have read in the past. Well, arpgme is so wounded falling back on faith snce one one else seemed to offer support or affirmation makes a lot of sense doesn't it?

My apologies for saying you are this or you are that, everyone. I am not admonishing or disapproving the truth and steering anyone has done that is meant to help arpgme over a very high hurdle called the self. No matter how many hands we reach out or words of encouragement we lend from our experience? We can only inspire to keep going. I can't affirm much of what arpgme has posted here and it is very clear many other can't either, because we all know it is coming from a dark place from being wounded. I unknowingly, set a trap and arpgme stepped in it. So I feel responsible, for the pain arpgme is going through... and out of compassion and empathy for having been in arpgme's situation countless times? Please change the direction to a thanks to arpgme for all arpgme has planted in the garden here? Let's show what out unity can really do.

Thank you all, and thank you arpgme, I am sorry to have ignited so much pain in you the last couple of days.

a reply to: arpgme

1) If there is only "now", one reality, no individuals then there is no responsibility. The greedy who hurt others have no responsibility since individuality is just "illusion".

Who or what told you there is no individuality in NOW?

You're experiencing NOW.... as am I NOW, but they are two separate realities existing now...

Now still has a future, it just hasn't happened yet... When I typed my previous line it was NOW... In the future I will type this next line.... See?

2) No free-will means its ok to lie, cheat, and kill and to even promote such behavior since they can just say they had no free-will. What better excuse for a serial-killer?

This omits the fact that there is consequence...

3) If God is Now and Reality then God is a liar, deceiver, and selfish ego since reality contains within it such unkind behavior. With a god like that who needs to believe in the devil?

Just because bad things exist does not mean God does not... and theres no reason to believe in "the devil"

The devil doesn't cause people to be evil so to speak... Man's selfishness does

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

There is not a single person who is outside this very moment, a separation is simply unthinkable.
Thoughts is time, thinking of tomorrow or yesterday, but it all happens in this very moment.
All action simply takes place in the present moment, time is present in this present moment, past, present and future.
But we should i think acknowledge that almost everyone, although many speak of now and focus on now, are quite simply the past with a direction.
Go where you will, everywhere it is the same, progression.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

What others believe matters because we share this world together and believing that The Creator of All approves of murderous deceptive or a theiving behavior or worse that God is also a liar murder and theif is a dangerous belief to have that doesn't inspire loving compassionate actions.

How can a Holy God be unholy? If you put dirt in water is it still clean?

If we want a peaceful world then we should be encouraging peaceful behavior rather than saying "It's ok, God is all even a rapist" . How is this any different than those who pray for forgiveness without caring to actually change their actions.

a reply to: arpgme

Would you please take time to focus on my question so we can understand how you're defining the words you use:

What do you mean by now? Fill in the blank: Now means ..........

What do you mean by free-will? Fill in the blank: Free-will means .......

Using the definitions you provided, how are now and free-will in conflict? Fill in the blanks: Now, defined as ....... and free-will, defined as ........are in conflict because ...........

a reply to: Tangerine

I already answered this: they're not necessarily conflicting which is why I specifically said those who believe in the Now AND lack the belief in free-will.

InhaleExhale is right. This is mostly a reasonse to someone but I made it a thread in case someone was actually believing what that person was saying.

Although Enlightened1 made a now thread I was not refering to Enlightened1 but another who goes around saying "It is now" and "the Light of God is now, it is seen - no freewill". I won't mention the name though because I wanted to respond to the ideas not do ad hominim arguments arguing against the person instead of the ideas itself.

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Tangerine

I already answered this: they're not necessarily conflicting which is why I specifically said those who believe in the Now AND lack the belief in free-will.

InhaleExhale is right. This is mostly a reasonse to someone but I made it a thread in case someone was actually believing what that person was saying.

Although Enlightened1 made a now thread I was not refering to Enlightened1 but another who goes around saying "It is now" and "the Light of God is now, it is seen - no freewill". I won't mention the name though because I wanted to respond to the ideas not do ad hominim arguments arguing against the person instead of the ideas itself.

Exactly how are the now and a LACK of belief in free-will in conflict? Answering this requires defining both terms. I don't think I'm alone when I say that I haven't gotten a very clear picture of how you're defining either term.

a reply to: Tangerine

Like I said:

"
I already answered this: they're not necessarily conflicting which is why I specifically said those who believe in the Now AND lack the belief in free-will. 
"

As for the definitions, the person was claiming that the Now (which is "current reality") is the Light of God revealed and that there is no free-will because we are only observers of that Light called "now" which is already good and perfect. By "observers" the person was saying we are consciousness and even our bodies are just the Light of God, the Now appearingperfectly without free-will since "individuals" do bot exist.