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Why focusing on the "now" and not believing in free-will is destructive

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posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:17 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

Honestly, I found your points to be rather abrupt and ones which jumped to multiple conclusions.

For instance...




1) If there is only "now", one reality, no individuals then there is no responsibility. The greedy who hurt others have no responsibility since individuality is just "illusion".


How is it that you make the leap from there only being a "now" to that of there being no individualism and therefore no responsibility?

If I'm merely not up on the topic, please, offer links to such philosophical reading that would explain your point of view. If it is your own point of view, would you care to elaborate?




posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:19 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

Notice I said the now AND the lack of belief in free-will. I'm not refering to you or Enlightenedone but those few others on this forum trying to say there is only now, individuality and free-will are illusion.

nullafides , if there is only now - God - The One and no individuals or free-will then there is no responsibility because God is hiding in all things forcing all actions to happen through all things and people
edit on 23-2-2015 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:22 PM
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a reply to: arpgme


trying to say there is only now, individuality and free-will are illusion


How do they argue this point; specifically the free will? Is it about divine will?

Seems like a sad place to be.

edit on 23-2-2015 by Dapaga because: clarity



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:27 PM
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a reply to: Dapaga

Well the one person who comes to mind says that all is consciousness and all is happening now and that there is no individual just Oneness. Now is all there is, the light of God appearing as now/reality.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:30 PM
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a reply to: arpgme



nullafides , if there is only now - God - The One and no individuals or free-will then there is no responsibility because God is hiding in all things forcing all actions to happen through all things and people


That's not what it means at all, only what you perceive it to mean. God does not hide if he is in the now because he REVEALS himself through the now.

The past and future are both hidden because they do not exist any longer/yet. The only thing that is ever revealed is what's happening right now. What better way for God to reveal himself than to reside in the now?



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:34 PM
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I am still not sure I understand. How does existing in the now negate free will?



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:41 PM
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You can disregard that last question. I don't wish to go off topic.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:44 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

But we can't change the world, we can however 'be the change'.
This brings me to another question concerning free will.

If you see a man who is very hungry and needs food, what do you do?



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 09:19 PM
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originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Dapaga

Well the one person who comes to mind says that all is consciousness and all is happening now and that there is no individual just Oneness. Now is all there is, the light of God appearing as now/reality.


How does that rule out free-will in the now? Does that hypothesis claim the nature of God?



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 09:27 PM
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a reply to: arpgme




nullafides , if there is only now - God - The One and no individuals or free-will then there is no responsibility because God is hiding in all things forcing all actions to happen through all things and people


Working with that, one would presumably need a belief in God, or any god for that matter.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 10:25 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

Guten Tag- I don't want to seem argumentative .......... but, personally I've never seen God being described as "Now" I've seen God referred to as "Him" ("Skybeard"), The One Infinite Creator but never as "Now". The Oneness? Sure, I get that. "Treat My neighbor like I want to be treated" My neighbor is a Masochist and likes His junk in a vise. That doesn't appeal to Me, sure I appreciated the fact that he felt that comfortable to 'share' but how am I supposed to treat Him? How 'bout the way I would treat MySelf... That 'time' is only linear because of the Body/vessel/skin-suit.. But I've never heard God as "Now"..

Maybe God as "creation ItSelf"...

How 'bout: We are ALL "creators" working our way back from whence We came, The One Infinite Creator..

namaste

P.S. I just saw Your location "Kingdom of God Within" So wouldn't anyBody looking outside of their own Self for salvation be doomed? Wouldn't each Self be a sliver of The Creator ? Or is there a "Chosen People"?



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 10:26 PM
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originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

...if God is All/Now/Reality then he is also the liar, deceiver, rapist, and murderer.


I have no problem with that, do you?

If the MOST HIGH is All/Now/Reality, then he is also you (and me).
And guess what, you (and I) are liars, deceivers, rapist, and murderers.
So, if the MOST HIGH cares about us in the present moment (now) then
that means he endures and experiences our sins as we do (in the now).

Most people thing the "God of the Bible" knows the future? Doe he?
But Openness Theology make the cast that He does not, and this
case is made from the Bible. God does not know the future perfectly.

I suggest you read a book on Openness Theology.
It got me to see the MOST HIGH in more personal
and meaningful way. In the HERE and NOW.

This " now" is NOT the path to "atheism" and 1984
you seem to fear. I hate the 1984 world as much as
you do. Finding the MOST HIGH in the NOW is not
what you ought to fear, on the contrary, not doing
so is the only thing you (or I) ought to fear.


edit on 23-2-2015 by wasaka because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 10:45 PM
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originally posted by: JimNasium
a reply to: arpgme

Guten Tag- I don't want to seem argumentative .......... but,

How 'bout: We are ALL "creators" working our way back from whence We came, The One Infinite Creator..

namaste


I don't want to seem argumentative .......... but...

You are not the Creator. Nor am I.
You are not a co-creator. Nor am I, nor is anyone else I know.
Yes, we can be creative. I am, most people I know are.
However, there is only one Creator.

Christians claim Jesus (LOGO/WORD) was a Co-Creator,
but that is a theology I don't cling to or care to debate.

The bottom-line is we humans don't create squat.
We can take raw material and make things. That's it.
We are clever, but that's all we are.
Being clever is as far as it goes.

People talk about being "Co-Creators with God" but
I find that talk to be complete non-sense!

We do have inside us the power of free-will; which the Creator
placed in us. That is the authority we have (given to us by God).
BUT that power (to act according to our own will) is not a freedom
that so many think it is. Actually, free-will is what keeps us
trapped in hell (the physical). We don't want to return to heaven
because of the ego-attachment to our body, our car, our wife
girlfriend, jobs, friends, family, whatever...

This power of free-will can set us free of the world of ego
and attachment, BUT ONLY went we empty ourselves of
those things which tempt and beguile. Our free-will is
weak and unspiritual, driven by ego-desires. It keeps
us struggling in the physical and fearful of heaven.

In short, free will is a double edge sword. It keeps us
in hell, but it is also our only way out.

Choose Life.


edit on 23-2-2015 by wasaka because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 10:47 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

Prove you have free will, scientifically thanks and please take into consideration the effects of errant subatomic particles on neural structures and please explain how you have control over ALL parts of yourself, right down to the subatomic level. After you try, I will shoot down all of your "proofs." I know you can't prove free will, it's an illusion and just the appearance of choice, every action has a rational explanation based on external influences ;-) Funny thing is, those influences don't negate a "creator," but rather support one. After all, someone had to write the code to build the virtual reality simulator, right?

As far as you living in the now, that's just silly, everybody "lives" in the very small temporal window call "now." Can you live in the past or future? Maybe you could bring us something from the past, again provable. BTW, pictures won't work, anything can be faked. I would want something tangible from the past or future as proof, something physical. Oh wait, you can't do that as it would break both the laws of conservation of mass and energy (across temporal lines) LOL.

There is no free-will. IMHO, we are tethered by some unknown technology to who/what we really are, from where we really are. The real question is who/what are we and where are we? Is it a prison or a school, a retraining camp or what? IHMO, using this virtual reality as a location, or our "operation" within it, is pointless, unless you can prove it's not a simulation.

When mass consciousness realizes that this is not what we are, I expect the entire simulation will collapse.

Cheers - Dave



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 11:23 PM
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If God is awareness then God knows all of our feelings now all of our suffering and joy. That means God would still have Love/Empathy so even if you believe in the God called "now"; "reality" it still proves the God of Love/Empathy is the one true God.

Now knowing this, why would anyone say careless, psychopath, non-empathetic is ok or God's nature? How can this be so if God is awareness and is one with all of our pain and suffering?



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 11:34 PM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: arpgme

There is no free-will. IMHO, we are tethered by some unknown technology to who/what we really are, from where we really are. The real question is who/what are we and where are we? Is it a prison or a school, a retraining camp or what? IHMO, using this virtual reality as a location, or our "operation" within it, is pointless, unless you can prove it's not a simulation.

When mass consciousness realizes that this is not what we are, I expect the entire simulation will collapse.

Cheers - Dave



I can see your point. It does seem to me we are just memory
and the person we think we are died a billion years ago.
Are we alive, or is this Memorx (a recording being played
in the head of some alien in a library somewhere?

If a person has free-will, would they know that they did?
You have just proven that some may not. Thank you.

If a person has free-will, would they use often or not at all.
You have just proven that some may not use it at all.

What do we know know?
1) Some people think life is a cruel hoax
2) Some people think life is an alien simulation
3) Some people think we have no freewill

The first two may be true, or seem true, but
it does not follow that if they were true that
freewill is ALWAYS and illusion.

What is freedom? Is it freedom do was we please?
or is it the freedom to stop doing what we don't
wish to do? We like to believe we are FREE to do
as we please... but are we FREE to say no and stop?
If not, how can we claim to be free?

Our liberty is restricted, that much is obvious.
But real FREEDOM is the ability to say no....
and having said no, to then simply stop.







edit on 23-2-2015 by wasaka because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 11:57 PM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: arpgme


When mass consciousness realizes that this is not what we are, I expect the entire simulation will collapse.



This is the view held by a certain circle of people who
call themselves STUDENTS OF A COURSE IN MIRACLES.
Specifically, those who accept the Gary Renard meme:

The Disappearance
of the Universe


Are you one such person yourself?



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 12:44 AM
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Focusing on the now is just one part of life, along with working for goals, or dreaming and trying to discover goals, and setting them, or looking over past, and uncovering both patterns to change or good memories at times.
To me its not all about being in the present, but what is very valuable when you're observing consciously the moments, is that as a conscious observer you can pay attention to reactions and failings at times, things that need addressing, and even just observing, staying in the moment that way, can bring some miracles/change/directions in.



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 12:57 AM
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a reply to: arpgme

I wouldn't worry about it, "being in the now" and similar ideas have become a "mainstream" concept, many read about it here or there and also its rhetoric, and seem to agree. Its very simple if you deconstruct it, when we think about things we have done in the past, we experience emotions such as guilt and regret, when we think about what could happen in the future, we experience emotions such as anxiety. When we cease to think about our actions, past or future, simply, we can shut off the distasteful emotions that are a result.

If you hurt somebody, and you are not thinking in the "now" you think about what you have done, and you might feel upset about it, which is a good thing because it means that you recognise what you did was not right. To simply stop thinking about the past might prevent you from feeling down, however, I think that we are supposed to think about our actions, and we are supposed to reflect upon them.

Consciously focusing on the present is useful when you have to apply yourself, when performing a task that requires unwavering attention (being in the "zone"), however, you would not want it to be a permanent state because you will start to lose your identity/ego.

Losing your identity is seen as a "good" thing according to the doctrine, as it explains that the "ego" is one of the things which prevent us from being at peace with existence, however, I find that those whom suffer from low self-esteem find the concept attractive because it is another way for them to "lose themselves".

I am proud of myself and what I have done, my "ego" causes me little trouble, in fact, I enjoy being me.
edit on 24-2-2015 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 01:31 AM
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originally posted by: wasaka

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: arpgme

There is no free-will. IMHO, we are tethered by some unknown technology to who/what we really are, from where we really are. The real question is who/what are we and where are we? Is it a prison or a school, a retraining camp or what? IHMO, using this virtual reality as a location, or our "operation" within it, is pointless, unless you can prove it's not a simulation.

When mass consciousness realizes that this is not what we are, I expect the entire simulation will collapse.

Cheers - Dave


Our liberty is restricted, that much is obvious.
But real FREEDOM is the ability to say no....
and having said no, to then simply stop.


That is an extremely sensible statement and of course under the no free-will premise, you were meant to type that as I was this. The ability to say no and have it actually mean something without any imposed restrictions I believe as well to be a true measure of freedom. Obviously, we do not live within a free simulation (society).

But coming back to free-will, you can do a simple thought experiment that reduces the concept fairly adequately. That being the finite system concept. For the conservation of mass and energy laws to operate within this "reality" the highest probability is that it is a closed system, meaning it has boundaries. I expect it is spherical and spiral galaxies are the result of a magnetic-gravitational-like Coriolis effect, but that's another discussion ;-)

Let's say we model a closed system with a 1cc volume and we knew the start positions of and could calculate all of the interactions of all of the subatomic particles within the 1cc volume of water if we added or subtracted energy. In effect, we could plot the course of all the particles during our energy experiments. Knowing this, by adding or removing energy from the system or by simply leaving it in a steady state, with a sufficiently large computer with enough sensors and memory, we could predict the future interactions and future positions of all of the particles until the end of time.

To take this idea one step further, instead we use a balloon, that starts with a 1cc volume under pressure and then force expansion. We still use the same computer, sensors and memory and if we knew the start positions and interactions of all the subatomic particles, we would again be able to plot their future positions until the end of time.

Reality or the universe is simply a larger model of the 1cc volume or balloon experiment. You'd need a bigger computer, more sensors and memory and of course for the purposes of analysis you would have to be outside of the system being measured, just like the 1cc volume or balloon. So, I think we've established that with a better understanding of quantum mechanics and a sufficiently large and complex computer, we could predict the positions and interactions of all particles within our experimental 1cc/balloon, or if we were outside the universe, the universe or this reality.

What this comes down to is very important since the probability is very high that this kind of computer analysis could be achieved in the future. If you can predict all of the particle interactions and their positions until the end of time, the past, present and future are, and have been, on an immutable predetermined path. That being the case, there can be no free will as all actions and reactions in the past, now and in the future could be predicted using mathematics.

So what does that make us? IMHO, technically, riders on a "buss" or meat puppets if you like, we observe, we experience, we remember, we don't change things. You can no more change what you think you're thinking than you can change the orbit of Jupiter by looking at it. You're thoughts and actions are not your own, they are the thoughts and actions of the character to which you are tethered in this cycle. It's like a roller coaster ride, you get on (born), you have your ups and downs (living) and you get off (die) and then you get on the ride again.

On your other post, I have no idea who Gary Renard is, I don't do the new age stuff. I look at these kinds of problems and solutions from a relational/math/probabilities standpoint. I only really starting experimenting in this area when I was developing gravity wave interferometry via temporal proxy systems for an NRC client in the 90's. GWI systems have the same inherent problems as reality, large scale structures that we are within and can't measure properly because our measurement systems change relative to the system being measured resulting in a zero measurements ;-) But again, that's another discussion LOL

Anyway, I hope that wasn't too convoluted, it's late.

Cheers - Dave



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