If Mariupol falls, we could end up at war with Russia.

a reply to: clearmind

Russia didnt start the mess in ukraine, the u.s. and the west did.

So giving the then president Yanukovych the choice of join the EU and lose all trade with Russia, or come to Russia and get cheap gas wasn't a big factor in what happened?

Because it seems they did go to Russia instead of doing what the president promised his people and also made changes to adhere to the EU policies, but of course by your thinking the US was there telling them that they had the choice...because I seem to have missed that part of this whole conflict.

The EU gave assurances that the trade between the Russians and Ukraines would not change, but Putin didn't care as long as he got what he wanted...the annexation of Crimea.

But feel free to show us that Russia was, or is the innocent party in all of this?

Destabilazation in ukraine only benifits the u.s.

Seems to be benefiting Russia more as they got what they wanted...Crimea.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Seems to be benefiting Russia more as they got what they wanted...Crimea.

They already had Crimea. They only moved when it looked like they might lose it.

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: joho99

Interesting reading, but all I will say is be prepared for the Prop Russian crap storm that will hit your thread like a hurricane.

As soon as the Azov Battalion was mentioned the Nazi flood wave is coming. Just a little friendly advice from someone who has dealt with that storm many times already.

And honestly Russia doesn't have the juevos to fight NATO, and they know this which is why they won't try to annex any other part of Ukraine...at least for now.

Nor Sadam or Gadafi backed Down from the US what makes you so sure that Russia will?

And you say that we should have stopped Putin a long time ago. Like when, and how?

Do you really think NATO will come out of a war With Russia as Victors? What kind of a world do you People live in?

People have got to be out of their minds if they think going to war With Russia is a option on the table. That is insane.

If there is war this year with Russia and it goes thermo then Titor is for real!!! No way anyone could have predicted it without knowing it was going to or did happen!!

If there is war with Russia then the use of nukes will become unavoidable, but maybe this is planned to reduce the worlds population and why all these underground bases have been built!

The conflict With Russia wont escalate that fast. There wont be a military confrontation With Russia the Next 3 to 4 years.
NATO and Russia havent played all their Cards yet.

When it comes to depopulation. They wouldnt play the nuck card. The 1 % ers cant run the show on their own. And buncker life gets very boring after a few days.

a reply to: Flatcoat

They already had Crimea. They only moved when it looked like they might lose it.

Then if they had Crimea why send troops there to take it?

You do understand the meaning of annexation right?

Also if they had it they wouldn't have had to sign the lease for their base now would they?

You don't sign a lease for something you own, but feel free to show where they already had Crimea before they sent troops into Crimea for the sole purpose of annexation of it?

a reply to: joho99

Mariopol maybe important, but people are getting this the wrong way.

If Russians were smart, they'd have escalated this war a long time ago. They have everything to lose, by allowing Nato to enter their corner of the world. Russia being a huge country, will suffer enormous financial, and geopolitical consequences if they allow this to happen. Basically speaking, they'll lose Eastern Russia. The Asian part. To some Russians, it may not be much ... but in reality, it's a future gold mine, which Russia can't afford to lose.

Putin isn't a bad guy ... he's a fall guy. Putin isn't doing anything at all to save Russia, he's doing his best in not doing anything to save it, at all.

The fact, that Russians haven't already taken Ukrain by force ... should be a tactical warning to all of us here. Because, if this was the US, and Ukraine was Cuba ... we'd already be living inside the nuclear fallout. And watching our young ones, being born in nuclear dust, like the Children of Fallujah.

The most horrifying of all, are the population of the US of A. These people actually "elected" George Bush for president. The man is an uneducated moron, who can hardly talk and walk at the same time. And he got elected president. Following him, Obama ... the guy, who during his speech gave the people who elected him ... the finger. The people of the US have no idea, of anything and do not look to the future.

And to be honest ... what do you think Europe has to gain by going to war with Russia? Even the idea is outrageously idiotic. Russia can inhialate Europe with the push of one button, and there is nothing either the US or China could do anything about it ... except shut their moth, and stay alive.

That's the cards on the table ... so the British are basically ignorant morons, same goes for a huge part of Europe ... who suffer the sad fact, that Europe suffered the total loss of it's intellectual capita, during WWII.

The sad fact, is that the Russians won't do anything ... they'll sit this one out, and just back away. Like always, and we'll all be the poorer, as the powers to be, move their pieces ... towards a total and complete Chinese rule of the world. The day, where you and I, will be locked in chains forever. The day, where rebellion against a world government, won't be possible.

The gruesom fact is, that it would probably save the day ... if the Russians did get off their fat bottoms, and end this war, now. And threatening Europe in the process.

And the most horrifying, terrible fact of all ... is that we, the people ... lost WWII. Hitler won.

If you look at a map of Ukrain, you will see that the so called line in the sand. Stretches itself into eastern Ukraine. It's thick line, where Ukrainian army has basically bombarded anything in sight, to get rid of the rebels. A huge no mans land.

When the rebels move towards Ukraine, they will have this no mans land at their back ... not the Russian border.

This is a tactical move, by Ukraine, and their western allies. It's not an indication that there will be war, but an indication that the west is planning to perform mass murder on the rebels. By luring them out of their hideouts, into the Ukrain proper ... and knowing, that Russia will not be in range, to provide humanitarian aid, and support them. They'll be able to murder them all ... wipe them out, from front and back.

The rebels aren't winning ... they're being lured into a trap.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Flatcoat

They already had Crimea. They only moved when it looked like they might lose it.

Then if they had Crimea why send troops there to take it?

You do understand the meaning of annexation right?

Also if they had it they wouldn't have had to sign the lease for their base now would they?

You don't sign a lease for something you own, but feel free to show where they already had Crimea before they sent troops into Crimea for the sole purpose of annexation of it?

And you keep ignoring the fact that the troops were already there, and had been for years. Crimea had a vote and they decided to stick with Russia. And before you say anything, show me evidence of voters being beaten in the streets and forced to vote at gunpoint.

a reply to: bjarneorn

A full scale invasion is not the smart first move.

When you can just cut them off from the black sea and watch the price of everything shoot up.

a reply to: Flatcoat

And you keep ignoring the fact that the troops were already there, and had been for years. Crimea had a vote and they decided to stick with Russia.

And you keep forgetting the fact that Putin admitted to sending troops to Crimea.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday that Russian forces had been deployed to Crimea last month to support local defense teams, the first time he has admitted such involvement by Russia.

www.businessinsider.com...

You do understand the difference between sending troops into Crimea( which means they would already be there), and sending troops to Crimea(which means they aren't already there) because it seems you don't?

As for the vote...Putin's own government admitted to the fact it was a sham...You also seem to forget that the Tartars didn't vote so that means not all of Crimea voted and the Russian poll numbers are wrong.

Now how does one get a 98% voter turnout with 12% of the population not voting, which is what happened in Crimea...but feel free to show how that math adds up?

And before you say anything, show me evidence of voters being beaten in the streets and forced to vote at gunpoint.

How about you show us the math that makes the Crimean vote end the way they say it did?

You don't take 12% from 100 and get 98%...but you seem to think it does care to explain that?

And where did I say anything about people being beaten or forced to vote...I didn't and that doesn't change the fact the vote was a sham that Putin's own government admitted to.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday that Russian forces had been deployed to Crimea last month to support local defense teams, the first time he has admitted such involvement by Russia.

That's right tsurfer you said it "defence teams." That's what you do when Americans are surrounding your country with military bases and picking former territories off, you defend yourself.

a reply to: joho99

Nato war with Russia?

I'll only believe it when I see it. The Corporatists that run the US have no interest in war with Russia, particularly over Ukraine. And based upon what I've seen Obama and the Ukrainian gov't do re: the Minsk meeting, it's obvious to me that Obama isn't going to even so much as supply defensive systems to Ukraine because he knows, 1) its a lost cause and 2) they'd just end up in Russian hands, much like the ordnance we supply the anti-ISIS forces. And as concerns the Ukranian gov't, its obvious to me that Porshenko has seen the truth and is becoming willing to cede eastern Ukraine to the Russians.

The other untold truth no one wants to admit, i.e., the elephant in the room, is that Nato couldn't stop the Russians if it wanted to. Nato is now, not much more than a paper tiger. Nato can't operate effectively in Russia's backyard because it can't control the airspace and everyone knows that. And Obama has eviscerated the US military capability, if reports are to be believed and of course...there's no military "draft" in place in the US and even if there were, the war would be over before any draftees left the boot camps.

Ukraine is toast...you can stick a fork in it.

originally posted by: joho99
a reply to: bjarneorn

A full scale invasion is not the smart first move.

When you can just cut them off from the black sea and watch the price of everything shoot up.

I agree a full scale invasion would not be a smart move ... in reality, any invasion, is never smart for a long term policy. You may win the war, but you will lose the peace ... so to speak.

However, a tactical nuclear strike to erase the Ukrainian armed forces, would be a smart move. The Russians won't lose anything by that move ... they're already labelled the bad guys, and will never get out of the penalty box.

Their only way out, is to fight their way out ... it's their only viable option.

But the Russians aren't famous for their pre-emptive strikes, or their colonial power. They are famous for their defencise attitude ...

In this case, defensive attitude ... is a losing stragedy.

originally posted by: jedi_hamster

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: joho99

says the one who storms all the threads even remotely related to the ukraine with 'blame putin for everything/whitewash the west' crap.

you were fast to show up here, weren't you? forgot to add 'first!'?

as for the thread, US is already supplying ukraine with some military equipment, so it's not even fear mongering, more like a psyop designed to prepare people for the inevitable.

Boom Baby!

Sir if I could give you a hundred more stars I would! You quite literally took the words from my mouth, well actually you did a more succinct job of it than I would have!

It is as if he was primed and waiting for this very thread to initiate the usual Russophobia! Although that is not saying much since any and all threads related to the subject results in the same script!

a reply to: jedi_hamster

you were fast to show up here, weren't you? forgot to add 'first!'?

So when did I become the basis of this thread...oh wait I'm not.

So when you just happen to see a new thread do you not reply, or do you just wait to see what BS is added to it such as your reply to me?

as for the thread, US is already supplying ukraine with some military equipment, so it's not even fear mongering, more like a psyop designed to prepare people for the inevitable.

Yes they are...defensive weapons unlike what Russia is supplying to the separatists. Where is your problem with that...that's what I thought.

a reply to: elementalgrove

It is as if he was primed and waiting for this very thread to initiate the usual Russophobia! Although that is not saying much since any and all threads related to the subject results in the same script!

So again when did I become the premise of this thread?

I'm sorry I should have added this for you card carrying Putin fans...

Viva la' Putin.

Next time try and actually stay on topic.

BTW can you refute anything in the OP, or are you like the rest, and only care to discuss other members?

Despite the usual polarization of the thread (As any thread goes when dealing with the Ukraine situation), what I've said before and I'll say probably in the future hold true. Russia's (Or perhaps Putin's) goal in this conflict it to secure a land bridge between Russia and Crimea. This is of vital strategic importance for Russia because it allows them to continue it's defacto control of the Black Sea. Putin will take Mariupol, I promise you that. Will that be the turning point that pushes NATO into more blatant support of the Ukrainian Government? I don't know.

What I do know is that the whole boondoggle really scares me. THE two major nuclear powers are heading closer and closer to zero hour, and the common citizens will be the ones who pay, as always.

Wise men wonder while strong men die.

originally posted by: Whereismypassword
Isn't it amazing that NATO is trying to get more money from member countries and is talking war a lot about Russia

They using scare tactics?

They don't need to use scare tactics when Russia has actually invaded and annexed part of another country. This mentality of constantly blaming NATO really is quite astounding, everything that Putin has CHOSEN to do has done nothing but justify NATO. No one MADE Putin invade Ukraine, no one MADE Putin steal a chunk of another country, no one MADE Putin kidnap a border guard...

Here's an idea, if you think NATO is a threat to Russia, how about NOT proving Europe right by NOT invading another country?

We are now well within our rights as a group of allies to do everything we can to prevent the threat Russia clearly poses to NATO member states. If Putin doesn't like this, maybe he should get his a** out of Ukraine and stop threatening other former Soviet nations?

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday that Russian forces had been deployed to Crimea last month to support local defense teams, the first time he has admitted such involvement by Russia.

That's right tsurfer you said it "defence teams." That's what you do when Americans are surrounding your country with military bases and picking former territories off, you defend yourself.

Oh, but hang on... it's self determination when it's Crimea, but it's force when it's a former Soviet state siding with Europe and the west?

Ah, right, I see, total double standards as usual.

How on earth can any sensible person claim that an illegal referendum in another country is perfectly fine under the notion of "self determination" (which, under international law, it wasn't) while also then claiming that countries independently CHOOSING and VOTING for closer ties with the US, Europe and NATO is somehow "criminal"?

a reply to: joho99

I have to agree that we should be paying close attention to what the "rebels" do next. I'm not entirely sure what form it will take (a full rebel assault on strategic towns and cities or a more insidious campaign of terrorist acts designed to weaken each) but there is no doubting that Putin is not done.

I've been saying this for months now, Putin was not only after Crimea, not even only E Ukraine, not even Ukraine... he's risked far too much for this campaign to be so limited in scope. He's aiming for a lot more than just what he's gained so far.

It seems various individuals, think tanks and governments are now admitting this too and openly talking about the larger plan. They're obviously know about the likelihood of this being a larger plan for longer than I have, but I do wonder why it's taken them so long to say what others have been saying all along.

This is probably why so many critics are now claiming that we were not prepared for what has happened. Surely our governments and NATO weren't so misinformed and naive that they genuinely thought this was all going to be limited to Ukraine?

As for the Blitzkrieg, I'm not too sure Putin is that stupid. Then again, it's hard to know what the strategies are behind closed doors.

I don't think anyone is really stupid enough to think this is all about Ukraine, we pretty much know another former Soviet country is next (otherwise, why would Putin have been moving all those anti-aircraft guns into Ukraine?)
He's preparing for the need to provide air cover, and that means either a more thorough invasion of Ukraine, or providing cover against NATO when going into a neighbouring country.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I seen a Video from Vice in where they would attend the voting process , seems like they used paper printed from a computer with no serial numbers or what so ever to prove authenticity so they could basicly sign thousands of voting ballots in a back room to rig the election.