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posted on Feb, 22 2015 @ 09:44 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

What? Jesus in no way calls us slaves and he the master. He says that the ones he has revealed the Father to are his friends, putting himself on equal ground with those he has revealed the Father to. You believe the Father has been revealed to you, yet you still consider yourself the slave and Jesus the master? Again, you are contradicting what Jesus said.

"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead I have called you friends, for everything I learned from my Father, I have made known to you."

That means the ones he reveals the Father to are no longer servants or "slaves", but a friend or equal to himself. This is why Jesus calls his apostles the light of the world, because they knew the Father, Jesus helped them to reach Christ consciousness along with himself, which is why he equates himself (the light of the world) to his apostles (friends).

You do not understand Jesus' words, you believe in a false doctrine, the same doctrine that your doctrine warns you about. Reverse psychology at its finest.

"These guys are warning me about robbers, they can't be the robbers themselves." Little do you know they are stealing from you right under your nose because you are too busy looking elsewhere.
edit on 2/22/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 22 2015 @ 10:18 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Dude are you blind ? I quoted it for you...

"20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you;"

The above is clearly an analogy that places Jesus at a status above them and it comes after what we were talking about. The fact that Jesus says "5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." The vine is what gives life to the fruit, without the vine the fruit is dead. The vine is clearly more important than the fruit, hence the reasons for "My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;".

Again your entire idea is based off the idea that Jesus calls us friends and now you have added spurious application to other verses. You are reading things into that word that aren't there. I am reading the entire passage and pulling the full message as well as comparing it to the rest of Scripture. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no comes to the Father but through me."

"5 While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. Jesus is what grants us the light we shine to others.

The light of the world when applies to us, and is a reference to works that give glory to the father in heaven. And As I have already shown you, you can't bear the light with out having accepted Jesus first.



posted on Feb, 22 2015 @ 10:29 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I have accepted Jesus, just not in the same way you have. I have a different understanding about what Jesus means by calling himself the vine and us the branches, though I understand your view as well. I cannot accept something that I find irrational. I can't help that it is irrational to me, so if God punishes me for something I have no control of, that is on him.

I love God and I love my neighbor. According to Jesus I will remain in he and his Father's love based on those two things. Love is greater than any sacrifice according to Jesus, meaning his sacrifice is secondary to love if anything. Laying down one's life for a friend is the greatest form of love, but it is not a requirement. Loving your neighbor and God does not always have to come with laying your life down because that situation will not always come up.

I believe in Jesus, love God, and love my neighbor as myself. According to Jesus that is more than enough to remain in his Father's love. God would not send someone who remains in his love to hell would he? If God loves everyone, even the ones he sends to hell, then why does Jesus imply those who do not follow his commands do not remain in his Father's love? God does not show favoritism? According to the doctrine of hell, God does just that, he picks and chooses favorites then throws the rest in hell.

Hell is a conversion tactic, nothing more. It scares people into belief and servitude.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 03:33 AM
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a reply to: Elementalist

Great thread and very enlightning on extreme faith. I don't have this kind of people around me so it helps me understand the 'right wing' christian. I would have like to see posts from muslim/buddhist though. What amaze me is what an ego can do to make his beleive prevail. They cannot just think by themselves anymore. It's an automatic system.' They doubt my system so they are my ennemies.' Maybe, in their inner self, they sense that a lot of things doesn't add, so they have to turn it into confrontation before you show them wrong. A fail safe system. People with addiction do the same. Anyway, keep on threading !




posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 12:42 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1




I have accepted Jesus, just not in the same way you have.


You haven't accepted the same Jesus friend(2 corinthians 11:4). You don't believe in his deity(1 John 4:1-2).




I have a different understanding about what Jesus means by calling himself the vine and us the branches, though I understand your view as well.


You might have a different understanding, but the one I have mentioned is the only view that will coincide with the rest of scripture. If I am wrong please enlighten me.




Love is greater than any sacrifice according to Jesus, meaning his sacrifice is secondary to love if anything. Laying down one's life for a friend is the greatest form of love, but it is not a requirement.


Never said it was. Its clear you didn't understand why I posted that verse to you. You made the statement that sacrifice was not greater love. I never said it was either. My point was that Jesus's sacrifice was an act of the greatest love, and the rejection of this act for sins for you is a rejection of his love.




I believe in Jesus, love God, and love my neighbor as myself.


I'll ask you the same question I ask LDS or JW members, which Jesus and which God? Explain there natures to me. Is the God you love the only God that exist?




If God loves everyone, even the ones he sends to hell, then why does Jesus imply those who do not follow his commands do not remain in his Father's love?


Again Jesus and the rest of Scripture teaches that apart from His grace you cannot be seen as clean. Your acts of love are worthless apart from grace. Scripture is clear on that friend.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

John 6
28Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Works=believe in the one he has sent

John6
40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

Will=believe in the one he has sent

You have missed the message friend.

Genesis 5 has the theme of the Bible hidden behind the names of the genealogy decipher them in order and you'll see the theme is exactly what I am preaching. Man is appointed mortal sorrow but the blessed God shall come down teaching his death shall bring the despairing rest.




According to the doctrine of hell, God does just that, he picks and chooses favorites then throws the rest in hell.


Thats not what the doctrine of Hell teaches at all, and I think you know that.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 12:46 PM
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a reply to: Elementalist




Thanks for derailing and taking over my FIRST thread on ATS

Its "Christians" as your self who give the community a bad name, and why people think Christians are whackos half the time. You ignore research, other opinions, experiences, faith etc.. because you think the book some men wrote, has all the answers.


Have a good understanding of the doctrine before you start writing a bunch of false statement about the theology and I wouldn't have to spend so much time correcting your mistakes. Oh, and its clear by the result to the ad hominems that you have nothing to say to my responses to you, because I think you know deep down I have said is accurate.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 03:47 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


Luke 18
19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.


Jesus didn't consider himself to be God. If he did, he wouldn't have questioned the one who called him good.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 04:32 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I enjoy reading your points of view.

I think you can look at that passage another way. In the context, Jesus is talking to a young rich man. The young rich man, asked what can he do to inherit eternal life, and he calls Jesus the Good teacher. And Jesus asks him, why do you call me good? basically asking him, what is it that you see in me? And you are right, no one is good except God alone (He can be referring to himself here). The rich man knew that Jesus had no possessions, and that's why Jesus questions him, basically saying why do you call me good? Think about what you said and you have your answer.

The rich man kept the commandments, but loved his riches more than God, which is why the rich man "became very sad, since he was very wealthy" when Jesus told him , “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Not sure if that point is clear, but I'm just pointing out there is another way of looking at it.


Edit: I am able to read Greek...I'm going back to the Greek to see how it is said


edit on 23-2-2015 by shieldmaiden because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1




Jesus didn't consider himself to be God. If he did, he wouldn't have questioned the one who called him good.


Do you not see yet friend that you have never actually let scripture interpret itself for you? If that man had known who he was with he would have understood.

www.answering-islam.org...

That website answers your question with Scripture. Hope you enjoy.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 07:45 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
Our conversation has moved threads so I will continue it there. I want to address this:


Have you not figured out yet, that the question of God's existence is a philosophical question and not a scientific one?


I fully agree god-belief itself is a philosophical discussion. Even more than that it's something that cannot be proven or disproven with scientific methodologies. I am not talking about the existence of 'god' as a general metaphysical Prime Mover.

I am specifically talking about religious gods. The religious descriptions surrounding them. They make claims about the known Universe we can address scientifically.

Now you said this:

"I agree"

In response to what I said:

"if we can disprove the religious descriptions then it's reasonable to disbelieve in that particular deity. "

So you are in agreement. Hopefully we are on the same page on that front.
edit on 23-2-2015 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 09:27 PM
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a reply to: Lucid Lunacy




I fully agree god-belief itself is a philosophical discussion. Even more than that it's something that cannot be proven or disproven with scientific methodologies. I am not talking about the existence of 'god' as a general metaphysical Prime Mover.


I haven't found one religious theology outside of the Bible that describes a God as a prime mover. The Biblical God is most definitely described as such.




I am specifically talking about religious gods. The religious descriptions surrounding them. They make claims about the known Universe we can address scientifically.


To a degree they do. You obviously have some issues with the Creation account and some other areas. Do you acknowledge that the Bible has Scientific predictions far before it time?



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 09:46 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
There are Creator gods from other religions that qualify. Regardless this is a metaphysical idea that can be explored by a non-religious person. Even one believed by a non-religious person. Deism and Pantheism come to mind.

To a degree only in the sense that science wouldn't take qualm with everything said, but what it does it does so utterly.

Predictions? I'm going to say no without elaboration on your part. Does the Bible contain factual things? Yes. It contains some things we can verify as historical truths. Which only shows evidence for terrestrial matters and does not extend itself as affirmation of metaphysical claims. That's fallacious. That bridge is crossed through faith.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 10:02 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
I realize I misspoke a bit. You're right only some of the Bible makes claims about the natural World... at least claims that would belong in the kind of discussion we are having. How much needs to be disproven to warrant disbelief is of course up to the individual.

edit on 23-2-2015 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 10:09 PM
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a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

I would say one thing.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 11:22 PM
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Say as many as you desire to.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 11:40 PM
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a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Sorry I should have been clear. You'd only have to disprove one thing.



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 12:18 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Which is?

*Edit: oh I think you mean to say any one thing, and not one specific thing.

Of course that's apparently not going to happen. As it stands it seems you have a way of interpreting scripture as to avoid the points brought against them.
edit on 24-2-2015 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

It has nothing to do with my intepretation avoiding points brought against it. It has to do with what the text says and good logic.



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 04:15 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It has to do with what the text says and good logic.


I agree full heartedly

edit on 25-2-2015 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 04:21 PM
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a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

So tell me Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. What do you think the phrase the heavens and the earth refers to?



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