It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Non-Extraterrestrial UFO Hypotheses

page: 23
30
<< 20  21  22    24  25  26 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 02:14 PM
link   
It has Found Facebook. And Twitter too, of course.

It is too late. We are being liminalized subliminally even as we sit here, typing away.




posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 04:30 PM
link   
For Jeff and any others;

It's pretty common that anything I post does not get a response
for a variety of reasons. I certainly don't take offense. By
posting I'm always doing one of two things:

1) Stirring the pot (sorry, I'm contractually obligated)
2) Put out information for people, who generally are lurking
and not anyone contributing to the thread.

All the most vociferous posters, of course have their own
strongly held points of view, and don't always learn from
each other so well (yes, I admit I can have this issue myself).

So often there is no use actually having a conversation
with anyone.. and if you notice (it's not just me), but most
direct questions asked by people (including the OP) are never
answered by anyone.. or by just maybe one. Usually I'll get
some IM's and I answer questions there.. which never make
it to the post.

I like a good post like this.. but in terms of good information
transfer between researching parties ---- eh* not so much
necessarily.

Kev



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 05:33 PM
link   

originally posted by: cuckooold
Hi all.

Interesting thread with some of my favourite ATS people putting forth very interesting theories. I have little to add at this point, but I thought I'd drop this video in from Mr Mask, 'The Extraterrestrial hypothesis vs Jacques Vallee'. Hopefully on topic and of some merit to the discussion.



For what it's worth, I do think there is something to the 'lim kanal' hypothesis, having experienced my own episodes with weirdness here. I've never heard the 'parasite' theory advanced before. Thanks Astyanax. I can't comment at all on the validity of this, but it's fascinating, and something I'd never really considered before.



a reply to: cuckooold

Hey you! Thanks for putting up my video as part of this thread! That's very nice of you and I hope it didn't hurt anyone's ears.

As for UFOs being alien? I never seen anything that explains UFOs as alien. If they are "other wordly" I wouldn't be shocked to learn they are time travelers, inter dimensional beings or anything twice as weird.

Nothing, in my opinion, has ever once suggested UFOs come from other planets. Not one drop of legitimate evidence supporting UFOs has ever shown a connection between Space-Aliens and UFOs.

MM
edit on 28-2-2015 by Mr Mask because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 10:47 PM
link   


Thank you for being so open about your experiences. I, too, have experienced poltergeist-type activity and it's damn scary. Could these dreams of being trapped in the dark and unable to find your way out have represented your psychological state in the context of your life at that time?
a reply to: Tangerine

First, I'm not sure that these were dreams. In fact, in my memory these experiences were absolutely real. I can remember the groping at the light switch and nothing. It doesn't have the feel at all of a dream. I remember like any other memory of things I did as a kid. But I have started to entertain the possibility that they were dreams after I had a particularly vivid dream last year which left such an impression on my I had to start a thread about it.



I noticed that you didn't attribute your childhood experiences to where you were living but I also noticed that you had the UFO sightings when you were driving back to move into that house. That suggests to me (I'm not trying to suggest what it means to you) that the house or location, itself, might have had something to do with the "manifestations" or, perhaps, negative experiences with people in that home might have had something to do with it.


I guess I wasn't clear enough about that, it wasn't the same house, it was the house that my grandparents built that my family moved into when my grandparents passed away. It was 2 miles away in the same town, but it wasn't the house I grew up in and I never had any strange happenings there except the UFO as I was pulling into the driveway with my wife and kids that day.



You said you dabbled in fringe occult knowledge. Did that involve actual attempts to summon entities and do you feel that you actually did so?


Not on purpose. I didn't identify the things as entities in the beginning. In fact, I thought it was all part of me. I had a familiar feeling of a presence that I realized was the same presence that I was used to feeling as a young boy. Only as a teenager experimenting with mind altering activities and seeking some great knowledge or great truth I felt that the presence was maybe not so bad, maybe not so menacing. I can't describe what I was going through then. I was in a rock band that was really on the cutting edge at the time and place (mid '70s east coast) , and we were truly inspired. I felt 10 feet tall and like nothing could stop me. I was heavily involved in the kind of mystical bs rock star guitar god crapola that was that era and I 'knew' I was going places. Everyone that followed us back then would have told you that. I still have a friend who did the whole music scene as his career but never got quite that big and he tells everyone, "that Jxxx xxxxx (my name) could have been famous, but he didn't want to". Well, I did want to, and that's all I ever wanted back then until my life was derailed.

I don't mean for this to be so long and drawn out. I wish I could say the things I'd like to get across in a short concise way but it doesn't seem to be coming that way. And I'll do my best to say what I think I need to and cut it short. I know I can't discuss certain things because of terms and conditions here, but I was getting deeper and deeper into this whole sort of psycho spiritual craziness and I was not being very cautious about the things I was trying and experimenting with. I think I was getting alienated from my closest friends because I was getting closer and closer to this 'thing' that I perceived and thought was 'part of me' but also some kind of doorway to the other side. It was a presence that was always with me and familiar from my earliest memories.

Well one night in early 1977 I had the defining moment of my life. I'm still not sure what happened to me to this day, but I think I backed out of some kind of pact with the devil or something, because suddenly something just exploded in my head and everything was turned inside out. It was as if everything I ever knew was gone. I was seeing the underside of reality, the negative image of the photograph. It was a place I had never anticipated even existing, and voices were telling me "your doomed, you'll never be the same, this is forever" and they were right. Almost 40 years later I am still changed, I am still this hollow shell of what I was. I have achieved a lot of things but have never been inspired since before the event. I am dead.

Sorry, I know that just came right out of left field right? Anyway, I believe that I was being manipulated by things that were with me since my earliest days and I was involved in things that brought them forth later but I wasn't consciously trying to summon them.



I'm not sure if I buy the traditional explanation for the cause of poltergeist manifestations. What does your gut tell you caused them when you were a child and continues to cause them now?


I don't either, but I think I already answered that.



posted on Feb, 28 2015 @ 11:56 PM
link   

originally posted by: wtbengineer
First, I'm not sure that these were dreams. In fact, in my memory these experiences were absolutely real. I can remember the groping at the light switch and nothing. It doesn't have the feel at all of a dream. I remember like any other memory of things I did as a kid. But I have started to entertain the possibility that they were dreams after I had a particularly vivid dream last year which left such an impression on my I had to start a thread about it.

I've had a lifetime of lucid dreams and in one period when older, a series of nested lucid dreams. These were horrifying. I would wake up and go about life, and then wake up and realize that reality was a dream and go about life, and then wake up and ... probably the single most destabilizing experience-set of my life. Seriously, talking to so-called aliens and entities and alternate timelines and more didn't do me half the psychological damage that nested lucid dreams did, because they utterly blew away my sense of truly knowing what was 'reality' vs. anything else. That was the one thing I had always had going for me, that my left brain (sic) was fully in logical, rational gear despite all the weirdness on the other side. Well, it was there, too. Not that it helped. It left me with the idea that what we think of as reality is actually a whole bunch of layers. Maybe we normally experience them held together, or just one of them we're biologically hardwired to the beat pattern for due to birth, or... something. But it seemed evident from those experiences that there were all of these "very close parallels" that were my reality, including its people and places and events, but just slightly offset, and that if I were to 'wake up' in THAT 'layer' I could operate there just like it was here and I would not know the difference.

In the end it was always reading that saved me. This is nearly always what helps me realize I'm in a lucid dream. Either I realize it, or it abruptly cracks apart and I'm out of it.


I think I was getting alienated from my closest friends because I was getting closer and closer to this 'thing' that I perceived and thought was 'part of me' but also some kind of doorway to the other side. It was a presence that was always with me and familiar from my earliest memories.

I've had that as well. Sounds like an inorganic. We are 'woven' with parts of them, we overlap in places.


suddenly something just exploded in my head and everything was turned inside out. It was as if everything I ever knew was gone. I was seeing the underside of reality, the negative image of the photograph. It was a place I had never anticipated even existing

I'd like to hear more about this, pem if necessary, if you're willing to share.


voices were telling me "your doomed, you'll never be the same, this is forever" and they were right. Almost 40 years later I am still changed, I am still this hollow shell of what I was. I have achieved a lot of things but have never been inspired since before the event. I am dead. Sorry, I know that just came right out of left field right?

I think some innate healing instinct in me wants to reframe that in some way.

RC



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 01:06 AM
link   
Oh dear.

This thread has degenerated from an interesting discussion about a psychosocial phenomenon into a tall tale swap-shop.

OP, would you care to pull it back, or am I done here?



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 01:15 AM
link   

originally posted by: Astyanax
Oh dear.

This thread has degenerated from an interesting discussion about a psychosocial phenomenon into a tall tale swap-shop.

OP, would you care to pull it back, or am I done here?


I don't think they're tall tales. It's important to expand the discussion from simply UFOs (as indicated in the OP) to include related phenomena -- and it seems to many of us in this thread that it's pretty much all related. However, perhaps we should try to incorporate discussion of the causes of these experiences.
What do you think causes these experiences?



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 01:25 AM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine


What do you think causes these experiences?

Since I have none of my own to go by, I can only guess. I have thrown into the discussion the idea that they may be parasite-induced in some way; if so, then parasites may also be responsible for sightings of ghosts and other apparitions of a related kind. I don't believe they are qualitatively different, merely perceived in different ways.

I understand that people are impelled to tell their stories, but I thought this thread was started for another reason. If people start talking about their personal experiences, a certain objectivity is lost.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 02:07 AM
link   

originally posted by: Astyanax

A tall-tale swap shop? Ouch. I suppose that pretty much sweeps every anomalous experience into the fish-story-ye-gods-these-people-are-lying-idiots trashcan.


Since I have none of my own to go by, I can only guess. I have thrown into the discussion the idea that they may be parasite-induced in some way; if so, then parasites may also be responsible for sightings of ghosts and other apparitions of a related kind. I don't believe they are qualitatively different, merely perceived in different ways.

Well, I suspect it requires that you actually create in your own head fairly gigantic subjective assumptions about the events which people either did not report, or which contradict the reports. Were this a police investigation of an unknown stalker, for example, nobody would have reason to suspect that a recognizable voice and commentary on the telephone heard by multiple people including one a city away and uninvolved were all hallucinating. So one must assume the teller is lying. Alternatively, that would require elevating parasites to the level of actual individual intelligent entities in control of humans to such a degree we might as well go back to ufology for the answers, it would just be a different label, although humans as zombies and the parasites as the ones living life would be more accurate I guess if we're using that model.


I understand that people are impelled to tell their stories, but I thought this thread was started for another reason. If people start talking about their personal experiences, a certain objectivity is lost.

I am seldom to never 'impelled;' I do it because it often makes others more comfortable with their own, or this is so if private messaging and 20 years of internet feedback are a sign. I only come out of the cave on occasion for it. But, if people's personal experiences are not on topic, there is not much subject to study. That doesn't mean they have to be in this thread of course. This thread could more easily be simply discussion at a distance, from the armchair of assumption; nothing wrong with philosophy.

But while in that armchair of philosophy, the hypotheses ought to at least be capable of fitting much of the data into some fuzzy semblance of possible within that model. If one has to come up with philosophies to explain human experience which assume that the humans reporting the experience are either lying or crazy or infected in order to allow oneself to ignore a lot of reported data which would indicate that at least in some cases this is unlikely to be so, data for which the hypotheses is completely unworkable, then the "tall tales" and "subjectivity" apply just as much to the philosophers as to the mystics. How this kind of revising-reality-to-suit-a-model is better than the UFOlogy approach, I'm not sure. They seem rather similar to me.

RC
edit on 1-3-2015 by RedCairo because: quote tag



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 02:14 AM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine

Environmental factors maybe, like illusions made by methane per say(Simpsons did it), to different changes in thought like convictions, or empirically thought processes like how paradigm are often portrayed, to the alignment of Jupiter or the moon?

Do people actually see or get cursed by the dead or see demons when they use a Ouija board, or use the third eye methodology?



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 02:36 AM
link   

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Astyanax
Oh dear.

This thread has degenerated from an interesting discussion about a psychosocial phenomenon into a tall tale swap-shop.

OP, would you care to pull it back, or am I done here?


I don't think they're tall tales. It's important to expand the discussion from simply UFOs (as indicated in the OP) to include related phenomena -- and it seems to many of us in this thread that it's pretty much all related. However, perhaps we should try to incorporate discussion of the causes of these experiences.
What do you think causes these experiences?


One person's trash is another person's treasure. From my perspective we've been
discussing a phenomenon that (according to Vallee multiple times in his books)
is giving us hints to what will replace Physics on the book shelf of science
(you should listen to this Ted talk from Brussels in 2011).

Vallee 2011 TED Talk

If anything, this post has been pretty tame.

I hope that you've gotten some of the feedback that you were looking
for when you started the post. I do admire how you've kept it mostly
on track.

Kev



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 02:43 AM
link   
a reply to: RedCairo


A tall-tale swap shop? Ouch. I suppose that pretty much sweeps every anomalous experience into the fish-story-ye-gods-these-people-are-lying-idiots trashcan.

Not really. As many have pointed out on this thread already, there are other ways of looking at it.


that would require elevating parasites to the level of actual individual intelligent entities in control of humans to such a degree we might as well go back to ufology for the answers

It wouldn't. Take a look at some of the links to parasitology articles I posted earlier. I also mentioned some examples in the posts themselves.

Also, I think you may be failing to distinguish between 'impelled' and 'compelled'.


If one has to come up with philosophies to explain human experience which assume that the humans reporting the experience are either lying or crazy or infected in order to allow oneself to ignore a lot of reported data which would indicate that at least in some cases this is unlikely to be so...

Are the only possibilities you can discern? We've been discussing some others on the thread.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:18 AM
link   

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Astyanax
Oh dear.

This thread has degenerated from an interesting discussion about a psychosocial phenomenon into a tall tale swap-shop.

OP, would you care to pull it back, or am I done here?


I don't think they're tall tales. It's important to expand the discussion from simply UFOs (as indicated in the OP) to include related phenomena -- and it seems to many of us in this thread that it's pretty much all related. However, perhaps we should try to incorporate discussion of the causes of these experiences.
What do you think causes these experiences?


One person's trash is another person's treasure. From my perspective we've been
discussing a phenomenon that (according to Vallee multiple times in his books)
is giving us hints to what will replace Physics on the book shelf of science
(you should listen to this Ted talk from Brussels in 2011).

Vallee 2011 TED Talk

If anything, this post has been pretty tame.

I hope that you've gotten some of the feedback that you were looking
for when you started the post. I do admire how you've kept it mostly
on track.

Kev


I absolutely agree that we've been discussing a phenomenon/phenomena that will likely turn science on its head. It's an amorphous topic and it seems to benefit from bouncing back and forth between experiences and hypotheses. Some people have never opened up about their experiences before and others are rolling them around on their tongues to see whether the taste has changed or tossing them out for insight from others. Nothing wrong with that at all. Personally, I keep coming back to liminality, anti-structure and the trickster because that's what resonates with me emotionally and intellectually. But, as Charles Fort said, "Ideas are fashions to be worn for a time". At least I seem to recall he said something like that. It's gratifying to know that other people are trying to come at this topic from other than conventional directions. I've certainly enjoyed your comments.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:37 AM
link   

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Tangerine


What do you think causes these experiences?

Since I have none of my own to go by, I can only guess. I have thrown into the discussion the idea that they may be parasite-induced in some way; if so, then parasites may also be responsible for sightings of ghosts and other apparitions of a related kind. I don't believe they are qualitatively different, merely perceived in different ways.

I understand that people are impelled to tell their stories, but I thought this thread was started for another reason. If people start talking about their personal experiences, a certain objectivity is lost.


I have had strange experiences and objectivity doesn't do them justice. However, I think it was RedCairo who pointed out that her logical mind kept her from going off the rails while she was experiencing high strangeness. The same was true in my case. As I mentioned previously, I went so far as to get an ex-Navy SEAL to perform counter-surveillance to confirm that I was being surveilled. I thought it was a logical step to take and even though I couldn't determine why, it at least convinced me that I wasn't losing my mind. From that, I "logically" created a "rational" scenario to account for some of the strangeness. Now that decades have passed and I'm not in crisis I can afford the luxury of considering more "out there" possibilities of what was actually going on. I'm not exactly sure how to be objective about it. You've seen me railing on about testable evidence on other threads but I'll be damned if it applies to much of this stuff. I think parasites are a possible explanation and probably do explain some experiences but it doesn't seem likely to me that it would account for people unknown to each other and at a distance apart seeing the same UFOs in the sky at the same time.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 03:46 AM
link   

originally posted by: Specimen
a reply to: Tangerine

Environmental factors maybe, like illusions made by methane per say(Simpsons did it), to different changes in thought like convictions, or empirically thought processes like how paradigm are often portrayed, to the alignment of Jupiter or the moon?

Do people actually see or get cursed by the dead or see demons when they use a Ouija board, or use the third eye methodology?


I think those things may account for some strange experiences. I have no idea whether people get cursed by the dead or see demons when they use a Ouija board or successfully use third eye methodology. I've never experienced those things. But I have experienced some seriously freaking weird things that I can't begin to account for via empirical methodologies. I think it's important to start by accepting that people have had the strange experiences they claim they've had. Sure, some people making claims are liars and some are nuts but that still leaves a significant number who are neither.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 04:11 AM
link   

originally posted by: RedCairo

originally posted by: Astyanax

...


I understand that people are impelled to tell their stories, but I thought this thread was started for another reason. If people start talking about their personal experiences, a certain objectivity is lost.

I am seldom to never 'impelled;' I do it because it often makes others more comfortable with their own, or this is so if private messaging and 20 years of internet feedback are a sign. I only come out of the cave on occasion for it. But, if people's personal experiences are not on topic, there is not much subject to study. That doesn't mean they have to be in this thread of course. This thread could more easily be simply discussion at a distance, from the armchair of assumption; nothing wrong with philosophy.

But while in that armchair of philosophy, the hypotheses ought to at least be capable of fitting much of the data into some fuzzy semblance of possible within that model. If one has to come up with philosophies to explain human experience which assume that the humans reporting the experience are either lying or crazy or infected in order to allow oneself to ignore a lot of reported data which would indicate that at least in some cases this is unlikely to be so, data for which the hypotheses is completely unworkable, then the "tall tales" and "subjectivity" apply just as much to the philosophers as to the mystics. How this kind of revising-reality-to-suit-a-model is better than the UFOlogy approach, I'm not sure. They seem rather similar to me.

RC


I rarely talk about these things IRL but, when I have, just like online, some other people share their strange experiences. Some of these people, such as yourself, have invested a great deal of time thinking about their experiences and trying to understand the nature of them. Some of the hypotheses they propose resonate with me and some don't. Sometimes I comment and sometimes I don't. Often, I want to let their ideas distill. There are times when a comment didn't seem significant to me at the time I read it but it later fell into the puzzle or nudged me to look at this topic from a different direction. All of this is valuable. I don't know how one would separate the people and their experiences from the hypotheses. They seem inextricably bound together.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 04:14 AM
link   
a reply to: Astyanax

Would you consider reading George P. Hansen's The Trickster and the Paranormal? I think you might be pleasantly surprised.



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 09:33 AM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine

There is one thing I'd like to point out, that I've never made clear
on ATS. There are in fact MILLIONS OF People who strive from
birth to death, to 'awaken the Trickster in their body', though
they wouldn't necessarily put it that way, and most of these
people live in India.

What is so strange, and is so bashed in America, is more than
5,000 years old and COMMON in other countries.

Now I myself was born with 'something' active, but when the
beatings from my parents got bad around the age of 6,
the 'light went out'.

So my looking for the 'paranormal' was just an attempt to heal
myself, to return myself to proper balance and functioning.

It took decades of the hardest work imaginable.

You see, I never had 'delusions or voices' or anything like
that.. I was cold, hard, reductionist rational.. and highly
educated in science.. but I knew that part of myself was
not as it should be.

Without my 'little friends' my mind was operating at maybe
20% of what it should be. It was hard not to miss that.

Not knowing what I was doing, I really messed myself up
for decades after I started achieving success. Then, yes,
I was quite deluded. One must at all costs not "eat the
energy" as if you do, you get this monster big ego that
is massively deluded. Like Hitler or Charles Manson.

People who figure this stuff out pretty much never reveal
the 'instructions' for how they awakened what they awakened.
They morally can't make themselves do it.

Of course all this could be 'Trickster Delusion' of course.. as
a matter of fact, in a manner of speaking, that's all which
exists.. like 1 of each particle and a quantum computer
doing just in time compilation to present 'reality' -
well that's a scientific metaphor for it.

I'm just saying, that there are people out there who have
forgotten more about this subject than 'experts' will ever
learn.. no don't include me in that statement.. I'm pretty
educated but no 'master' of anything.

Kev



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 09:43 AM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine

Thanks for the recommendation. I had a look at the web site. The references to postmodernism and Jacques Derrida were a little discouraging. I find postmodernism intellectually repellent.

That is not to dismiss the book, but I have to plead the old excuse: 'so many books, so little time.'



posted on Mar, 1 2015 @ 09:44 AM
link   
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Does to 'awaken the Trickster in their body' means to develop paranormal skills or powers?



new topics

top topics



 
30
<< 20  21  22    24  25  26 >>

log in

join