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Non-Extraterrestrial UFO Hypotheses

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posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 02:09 PM
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a reply to: Specimen

No you were talking off topic.

Let's be serious --- 99% of the discussions
on ATS are not 'empirical'. They can't be.

Most discussions are about unconfirmed
theories and in general unconfirmable
(ever) theories.

This particular post is about human
reactions to strange perceptions for
the most part ---- thus the 90% figure.

The other part of this post deals with
new ways of thinking; new hypothetical
theories and models and brainstorming.

In short not one single dot of these posts
are particularly empirical; they can't be
(yet). Maybe in 10,000 years we will
have the unknown swoop down and
let us 'pics or it didn't happen'.

But until then we flap our gums and
try to make a bit of glacially slow
progress.

Just like happened for all other fields
of human knowledge before a small
part of them became 'empirical'.

Not to mention that a fair amount of
todays 'empirical' will be retracted as
wrong some day.

Kev




posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 02:22 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 02:36 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 03:20 PM
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Let's not make it personal , Please.

Ball , not the Player.


TIA



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 05:04 PM
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originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: Tangerine

Thanks for providing all that detail.

That surveillance thing was 'pure nuts'.

You definitely fit the profile.

It's good that you moved out of the area.. you should be mostly
'good' now, unless you do the insane thing that shamans do, and
that is to invite plasma-based lifeforms to live in your body
consciously with you (in that case you bring the power source
with you.. and location no longer matters as much).

Of course from my perspective, all people have these entities
inside of them (RC would seem to agree ;-), but if you don't
overtly 'feed them' you might live an entire lifetime without
knowing that they are there.

But would it be correct, that if you get 'stirred up' on the
subject of UFO's and such due to some good TV program
or something, that you start to 'feel' 'it' again?

Kev


I remember "Blair Witch" stirring it up for me. Interestingly, although my desert hiking partner and I had been separated for years and lived in different states, when he saw it he called me in the middle of the night and said, "That's how it was. I had to call you. No one else would understand." I asked him if he missed night-hiking in the desert and he said he thought about it every day. Hiking there was a compulsion. We lived for it. We were drawn to it. We got scared every time we went out there yet we kept going back.

On one night we were driving on a rudimentary 4-wheel drive road (the road was so bad we periodically had to stop and drag rocks to fill in huge holes to "build" the road in front of us) and saw a huge (beagle-sized) rabbit sitting in front of us. This was not a hare. Hares are common in the desert. This was an oversized white Easter bunny-type rabbit that wouldn't have lasted a night out there. We stopped the car and sat silently staring at it until it hopped off the road. One of us turned to the other and said, "You know that wasn't really a rabbit" and the other said, "I know."

Then there was the night we took our usual turn off pavement and onto a rudimentary dirt road and drove a couple hundred yards before seeing a man sitting in a lawn chair looking in the direction of the horizon. We passed within 10' of him driving maybe 10 miles an hour directly in front his field of vision. I could see his eyes and they never flickered. He showed no indication of having seen us. We drove a couple hundred more yards and passed within 10' of the field of vision of a Native American-looking woman sitting in a pickup truck. She, too was looking in the direction of the horizon (same direction as the man). She, too, showed no signs of having seen us. We were scared to turn around and pass them getting out of there so we kept going, following our usual routine of driving as far as we could before getting out and hiking farther into the desert. Hours later when we returned, they were gone. It was extremely uncommon to run into anyone else out there and, if you did, you were likely going to be in danger. Any "normal human" seeing anyone else out there would have a reaction and probably one of fear. If a car drove within 10' of you across your field of vision while you were sitting in a lawn chair in your yard, I believe you would exhibit eye movement. There was one other instance of coming across "transfixed" people but I'll save that for another time.



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 05:33 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

I find that certain things stir the pot so to speak. My wife and I don't go to certain types of movies any more and I don't read that genre of book either. I have to be careful even reading through some of these threads because if I get too engrossed in the subject matter I find myself getting caught up in that darkness and things around me start to change.

When you talk about the people transfixed, you also said it was strange to see anyone else around that area. Then you mention the guy sitting in the lawn chair "in his yard". Was he actually in his yard, was there a house there? I wouldn't find that as strange as if there was a guy sitting in a lawn chair randomly out in the middle of nowhere.



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 05:57 PM
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originally posted by: wtbengineer
a reply to: Tangerine

I find that certain things stir the pot so to speak. My wife and I don't go to certain types of movies any more and I don't read that genre of book either. I have to be careful even reading through some of these threads because if I get too engrossed in the subject matter I find myself getting caught up in that darkness and things around me start to change.

When you talk about the people transfixed, you also said it was strange to see anyone else around that area. Then you mention the guy sitting in the lawn chair "in his yard". Was he actually in his yard, was there a house there? I wouldn't find that as strange as if there was a guy sitting in a lawn chair randomly out in the middle of nowhere.



No, I mentioned the lawn chair in the yard as a purely theoretical example of a normal situation in which someone sitting in a lawn chair in their yard would react to a car driving across their field of vision 10' away whereas the people in the desert (where it would be much stranger) didn't.



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 07:42 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

That's what I thought you were saying, but was he sitting in a lawn chair? That is very strange.



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 07:43 PM
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originally posted by: wtbengineer
a reply to: Tangerine

That's what I thought you were saying, but was he sitting in a lawn chair? That is very strange.



It was very strange, indeed.



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 12:03 AM
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I realize that some of the personal experiences I've described could be accounted for by actual people doing these things for whatever bizarre reasons or even raving paranoia or delusions on my part. However, these things were occurring at the same time as UFO sightings in the sky, bouncing globes of light on or near the ground, twinkling lights on the ground, disembodied voices heard by the neighbors, and frightening poltergeist-type activity witnessed by others. The latter was reacted to by a dog, a cat, my boyfriend and a house guest. I think the fact that other people who were not involved in spooky nights spent on the desert witnessed some of this rules out raving paranoia and delusions on my part and that of my boyfriend. Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility that one of us somehow caused these things to happen (if so, it certainly wasn't consciously intentional on my part nor, I'm convinced, on his part) or that some other force was at work.

RedCairo, you haven't commented about any of this. Do you have any insights to offer?

I can describe more but it seems pointless if no one has any thoughts about it or even similar experiences to share and attempt to decode.



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 01:49 AM
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a reply to: Tangerine

Have you ever thought of some of these ufos that fit the metaphysical criteria being technological, but yet still paranormal, where it lies in the psychic criteria? Sure this kind of does imply the ETH as said you like to move away from, but reading up on Jacque Vallee interview, discussing some of his points about. He does point out that they are physical and are likely using some form of technology to warp time-space in weird ways. But he does say this does not make it extra-terrestrial totally.

And in another interview, where he talks about the "Control Loop", he doesn't necessarily that they are alien overlords or wardens imprisoning us, as most ATS'er would believe or show. He more likely puts it as that the system works using events that could change perception if you could put it. Where it rules a social level, shaping and molding it, to where it has to meet certain expectations in some way. Where it seems more interested in reactions of groups or individuals, but might have some psychic involvement.



We may be carrying a matrix of imagery that it somehow picks up. A good example of that is Fatima. The apparitions witnessed at Fatima did not start in 1917. They started two years before. Some of the same kids were involved, and there were also other witnesses. What they saw was a globe of light. Then they saw a globe of light with some type of being inside. Then they started calling the being an angel, and then the angel started communicating with them and gave them a prayer. It developed in stages, and culminated in 1917, but even then the virgin Mary wasn't seen by everyone who was present.


That's where I was kind of trying to get into more of a "Timed System", where it seems to respond to certain signals that are given off by reactions. Like lets use mythology, and go with the Jinn, now supposedly in legend, Jinn can sense when a human is nearby. Now would this be because of a lack of deodorant, or someone whose breathing or thinking to hard. And couldn't any human in the Jinns area can't sense it, but would it be aware if someone saw one? I wouldn't say it true limit is omniscient, but it might seems close enough... or was it wanting or expecting that reaction?

www.ufoevidence.org...
www.ourstrangeplanet.com... y/guest-editorials/jacques-vallee-interview/

Dam new agers.:mnky
edit on 26-2-2015 by Specimen because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 02:10 AM
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originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: wtbengineer

You know how supremely selfish and
self-centered a young child's mind is?

I'm just now catching up with the most recent pages here (just reached bottom pg. 18), so still 'processing' most of what I've read - but I have to respond to the above, because what I have to say may provide you a reason to 'rethink' this particular aspect of your 'Trickster psychology'...

I have spent over 40 years basically (off and on) 'raising' children, starting with my own baby brother (I was 5 & 1/2 yrs older), progressing to neighborhood babysitting, then working in childcare (including live-in nanny jobs where I spent more time 'raising' the kids than the parents did), then being stay-at-home mom to my own daughter and caring for neighbor's kids...

...all of that to say, from vast experience:

You are mistaken in the idea that young children are "supremely selfish and self-centered"...at least, I assure you, they are not at all 'inherently' so..

Now, yes, you could say that, as babies, they are 'centered around the self', but that is a different thing altogether, and has to do with the fact that babies do not at first realize that a parent or other caregiver is not merely an 'extension' of the child's own self...

A "selfish" child is modeling selfish behavior by someone of influence in his or her 'environment'...and a "self-centered" child is one which has been catered to and spoilt to the degree that his/her mind has been taught self-centeredness...


Sorry this got so long, but I do think I've made an important distinction here, and I have a strong feeling that if you incorporate the fact that - children are born inherently pure of heart - into your thinking on the 'make-up' of the trickster/et al, you will find some fresh insight...



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 02:19 AM
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a reply to: Tangerine
I do have some thoughts on your experiences, but it is so late I don't think I can put coherent comment together...

The basic gist is a bit 'amorphous' at this point but it has something to do with:

What if the 'feds' were surveilling you because they were messing around with trickster/control loop type 'stuff', somehow marked/pointed you and your boyfriend out to the 'stuff' and were watching to see what would happen or what you would experience and how you would react to it all?

None of that rules out other people witnessing the things you experienced - I'm just conjecturing that you two might have been the 'targets'...


edit on 26-2-2015 by lostgirl because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 02:24 AM
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a reply to: Specimen

i've thought about it in a number of contexts and have tentatively concluded that much of it was paranormal (grand category there) manifested physically, in part. I don't see that implies aliens from another planet at all. As for a control system, I don't think of that as otherwordly (in a physical sense) overlords. I think of it more in a Jungian sense or purely paranormal in another way. Yes, I think it feeds off of or responds to us in some way, although that could simply be my ego-centered interpretation. The Fatima example you gave is interesting in that the events developed over time into increasingly complex manifestations as though feeding on the attention given it. I don't know what to think of Djinns. They're associated with the desert, I know, so that may be pertinent to my experiences. Thanks for the feedback.



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 02:43 AM
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originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: Tangerine
I do have some thoughts on your experiences, but it is so late I don't think I can put coherent comment together...

The basic gist is a bit 'amorphous' at this point but it has something to do with:

What if the 'feds' were surveilling you because they were messing around with trickster/control loop type 'stuff', somehow marked/pointed you and your boyfriend out to the 'stuff' and were watching to see what would happen or what you would experience and how you would react to it all?

None of that rules out other people witnessing the things you experienced - I'm just conjecturing that you two might have been the 'targets'...



I think that's within the realm of possibility that part/most/all of this was some black ops project. If it was some sort of government project it was elaborate and expensive (of course the government is spending our money so what do they care?). I can't tell you the number of times while this was going on that I asked myself why us? What have we done? What do they think we're doing? It was obvious that the following us bit was intended to be noticed and elicit fear. On the other hand, if a black ops project was behind all of it, they had to have planted the "transfixed" people on the desert to be happened upon (although we often drove up that road and "they" could have figured out that we were headed that direction) and the strange people moving about downtown at night when minutes before we got there even we didn't know we were going there.

Then there were the UFOs in the sky in the desert one night. And the phone ringing whenever my boyfriend entered my home. I had six dogs. I don't know how anyone could have gotten into the house to rig/bug the phone. I don't know anyone could have gotten into the house to rig much of the poltergeist-like events.

There was also a night (probably closer to dawn) when we came back from the desert and were walking upstairs to go to bed. I was in the lead. I was carrying the 3-cell Maglite that I carried on the desert (only to be turned on in case of a major emergency-we hiked without lights). As I approached the top of the stairs with the NOT turned-on Maglight in my hand, what looked like a small lightning bolt a foot or so long shot out horizontally from the SIDE of the light. It made no zapping sound and I felt nothing. I turned to ask my boyfriend if he had seen it and he was backing down the stairs saying, "Stay away from me!" He was scared. He thought I had somehow magically made it happen (you have to remember that lots of woo-woo stuff had been happening and he was as paranoid as I was). I assured him that I had not and that it was only static electricity--but I knew better. The bolt was as thick as my finger. Never happened before and never happened after.



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 02:54 AM
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I just realized that in one post I attributed most of my experiences to the paranormal and in the next attributed most of it to black ops. That's because I go back and forth in explaining it to myself. I can argue either hypothesis and neither is entirely convincing to me. It may seem to some that I've deviated from the UFO topic but it seems to me that this is all tied into one misshapen, gooey ball of wax. One can pull a ball of wax apart and make smaller balls of wax and twist and deform them and then put them all back together into the single ball.

Come on people, some of you must have had experiences you can't explain and they're probably no weirder than mine. If you can't decode mine or yours, describe how yours were similar or different and whether they occurred in a variety of ways over a period of time and then just stopped. What does your gut tell you was behind these events? We're brainstorming here!
edit on 26-2-2015 by Tangerine because: typo correction



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 08:09 AM
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originally posted by: lostgirl

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: wtbengineer

You know how supremely selfish and
self-centered a young child's mind is?

I'm just now catching up with the most recent pages here (just reached bottom pg. 18), so still 'processing' most of what I've read - but I have to respond to the above, because what I have to say may provide you a reason to 'rethink' this particular aspect of your 'Trickster psychology'...

I have spent over 40 years basically (off and on) 'raising' children, starting with my own baby brother (I was 5 & 1/2 yrs older), progressing to neighborhood babysitting, then working in childcare (including live-in nanny jobs where I spent more time 'raising' the kids than the parents did), then being stay-at-home mom to my own daughter and caring for neighbor's kids...

...all of that to say, from vast experience:

You are mistaken in the idea that young children are "supremely selfish and self-centered"...at least, I assure you, they are not at all 'inherently' so..

Now, yes, you could say that, as babies, they are 'centered around the self', but that is a different thing altogether, and has to do with the fact that babies do not at first realize that a parent or other caregiver is not merely an 'extension' of the child's own self...

A "selfish" child is modeling selfish behavior by someone of influence in his or her 'environment'...and a "self-centered" child is one which has been catered to and spoilt to the degree that his/her mind has been taught self-centeredness...


Sorry this got so long, but I do think I've made an important distinction here, and I have a strong feeling that if you incorporate the fact that - children are born inherently pure of heart - into your thinking on the 'make-up' of the trickster/et al, you will find some fresh insight...


This is black letter psychology and neurology.
There is definitely a phase of extreme selfishness and self-centeredness.
Now of course with good parenting that phase need not be excessive.

But the point is, that we are 'still' everything that we have ever been;
it's how humans work. We are onions with new layers on top of old layers.
It's the very way the brain is constructed.

I've spent 53 years talking to my own unconscious mind; rest assured,
it's a little beastie in there! (in part) like all of ours are.

Kev



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 08:23 AM
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a reply to: Tangerine

I don't think the government is responsible for any of my experiences, but I can't speak for anyone else on that. I think it's an intelligence that hides itself from us and feeds us that which we fear most, much like the spider in Stephen King's "It". Only that spider hid itself behind all the subterfuge out of an inherent vulnerability whereas the trickster we speak of hides only because it serves the purpose of its plan to annihilate us with our own fear.

In the '70s during the period when "The Exorcist" came out in theaters I was involved with a Christian traveling musical group and we would go on retreats to a home in the country where we'd study and pray and supposedly get closer to God through a sort of communal living that actually became a setting for most of us to escape to have sex, take various drugs and just kind of let loose. I would have to say that we all had the common desire to live and act according to the stated purposes of the group, I can easily see how these settings deteriorate into 'Jonestown' type situations.

During that time period, however, I witnessed 'exorcism' events that part of me thought at the time (and still does now) were staged events, put on to somehow encourage our belief in the power of God over the devil. But some of the things that I saw could not be explained by the putting on of a play. In one instance, a girl I knew was supposedly possessed by the devil and everyone prayed over her and 'cast it out in Jesus' name' as they do. The girl did actually appear to be in a state that was pretty extreme for the mild mannered girl who I knew on a personal level, but I could still believe that it was all just being whipped up to a frenzied state by the emotional intensity of the scene. But after most of the group left and I was there with only a handful, the girl looked at us and said "see this?" and the flame of a candle resting on a nearby table jumped up like a fireball out of Gene Simmons mouth and she said "I made her do that". Well, that was enough for me and I got out of there.

Before any of that I had already experienced strange happenings in my home that I was basically in denial about. I'd hear footsteps come across the floor right up to my bed and stop. Then sometimes feel something depress the mattress as if something sat down next to me. I'd always be completely covered up under the blanket feeling like I was somehow safe there like that. I'd never really acknowledge the things that I heard and felt because to do so meant that I had to admit that there was something else really there with me. I couldn't bear to accept that.

Then later in my life I experienced things moving around 'on their own'. Pictures falling off the walls, a bracelet I had sliding while I watched across my bedroom dresser with no apparent motivating force. And still footsteps, every day, as I sat on the first floor under my bedroom watching TV I'd hear what sounded like 20 people walking around and around in my room. I'd jump in my car and drive to town and sit in a parking lot until the sun came up.

Still later, in a period of my life when I was very much into reading about 'flying saucers' and such I saw what looked like a nuts and bolts craft sitting in the sky. It just hung there and at first I just watched it and didn't really notice it. My whole family at that time saw it, but only me and my 32 year old son remember it (he was a kid at the time). Then it just disappeared into thin air. We scanned the sky trying to find it again, but it was gone.

Other times in my life I was obsessed with reading about this thing or the other, bigfoot for example, and it would seem that suddenly that was all the rage. People in the neighborhood were reporting seeing strange creatures in the woods and at the edge of their yards and missing animals, etc. I'm not saying that I personally was the catalyst for all these things happening, but then again, who knows? What I really believe is that the trickster has an incredibly dark and malicious sense of humor and knows how to use it against us when we are most vulnerable and most open to the particular attack.

I don't mean to ramble, and I could have added a lot more being that I am getting up there in years now. But I just wanted to try to convey what I feel is at the heart of all of this stuff, and it is not something that likes us much. The most peace that I have found in my life I have attained by just focusing on 'normal' things and avoiding this woo crap altogether. But then I wonder if I am living in a false sense of security. Whatever, I can't bear to catch a glimpse of those things that sneak around in the dark, I prefer to keep my head under the covers.


edit on 2/26/2015 by wtbengineer because: grammer



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 08:29 AM
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originally posted by: Tangerine
I just realized that in one post I attributed most of my experiences to the paranormal and in the next attributed most of it to black ops. That's because I go back and forth in explaining it to myself. I can argue either hypothesis and neither is entirely convincing to me. It may seem to some that I've deviated from the UFO topic but it seems to me that this is all tied into one misshapen, gooey ball of wax. One can pull a ball of wax apart and make smaller balls of wax and twist and deform them and then put them all back together into the single ball.

Come on people, some of you must have had experiences you can't explain and they're probably no weirder than mine. If you can't decode mine or yours, describe how yours were similar or different and whether they occurred in a variety of ways over a period of time and then just stopped. What does your gut tell you was behind these events? We're brainstorming here!


It's not "either physical or non-physical". In fact the rude awakening for all of us
will likely be, that even discussing "physical" will one day soon be entirely
pointless.

Jacques more recent work is entirely about the science of information theory
having primacy over the kludge called matter/energy and physics.

At it's core, we are an information system, attempting to communicate with a
so-called 'alien' information system.

For the record, I do not use the concepts of an 'alien control loop', nor the
concepts of 'djinn' or 'parasites of Ra' or any of that in any way, except
as needed metaphors from time to time. Just like the false dichotomy
of physical vs. non-physical, all those concepts are in part wrong.

Jacques does not focus upon 'alien' or 'physical' in any way.. on the
other hand, he does not focus upon 'purely terrestrial' or 'non-physical'
either.. the distinction just doesn't come up.. because he is a purist
that ATTEMPTS relatively empirical observations without jumping to
conclusions. And that's excellent.. but it can only go so far.. there is
also a need for 'brainstorming' (tentatively jumping to conclusions)
to model a hypothesis, and I do a lot of that obviously.. but I'm
just as quick to discard as to embrace.

But where does that leave us?

Exactly nowhere. We are on step two or so, of a multi-thousand
year journey of discovery.. at the end of which, I suspect that
we will have many more characteristics in common with some
of the phenomenon we are attempting to understand.

The question is not whether we can necessarily figure out any
of this at our stage of development, but what, if any useful
steps we can take, so that the next guys/gals who try and
figure this out after us, have something to spring-board
on. It's humbling i know. We attempt to build on the shoulders
of giants, so that future giants (if any, humans will someday
go extinct) can build on a few crumbs we come up with.

But if all that is too insubstantial to even comment upon,
there is the 'both' paradigm that seems to have some
value.

For example one of the most amazing things I've ever seen
(can't go into it, or the thread will implode like the other
threads have) certainly seemed to be 'physical' and in fact
it seemed to be controlled by a genuine 'AI'. Yet, it was
definitely at least enveloped by a psychoactive field.

Yes, perhaps it was 'skimming across dimensional borders',
though that analogy is not a great one.. Jacques thinks
(and I agree) that we need to be discussing emergent
properties and that the entire concept of 'dimensions'
at all as something to obsess about is a dead end.

Perhaps we can say that the 'craft' (if that's even a
legitimate word to apply) had multiple emergent
properties, some of which would be viewed as
'physical' and some of which would be viewed as
'non-physical'.

Now there -- I like that.

BTW, in your case --- there HAVE been many
reports of 'ghost helicopters'; 'ghost (fake)
human fighter jets'; 'ghost police vehicles'.

Who knows what you saw?

The weird thing, is that if they were real
people running a real law enforcement
action, they would have cleared you out
of there first thing.

I agree that it SEEMS 'you were the
experiment' or at least people in your
area were the experiment.

Kev



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 08:40 AM
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a reply to: wtbengineer

Thanks for sharing all that.

I myself truly and totally believe that the only reason there is
seeming malice and fear stuff in the 'trickster' is because the
'trickster' is at least in part an amalgamation of all the human
emotional turbulence. Our 'group soul' if you like, that we are
all busy constructing, as we humans are 'tulpa generating
machines' - I'd say in fact that is the ENTIRE purpose of ALL
'physical plane life' - as matrices which modify energy flows
to create tulpas, which eventually evolve into proper
sentient life forms.

This is a hatchery planet for the true lifeforms out there..
we are incubators. We are the 1% physical matter, in a
universe which is 99% plasma.

Hello McFly!

That said, I'd say that 'we' are actually quite loved..
and in a certain sense 'just as spiritual' and not
'second class citizens'.

That part is hard to describe.

I am not trying to convince you of anything.. just
sharing that things are not necessarily so dark
as you think.

It's like Red Cairo shared actually.. that 'black
sludge' that we humans create, is actually a
sack of puppies, kittens and unicorns wanting
to get out.

But we humans love to corrupt the innocent; we
are experts at it.

Kev



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