ISIS and you

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Not for nothing, Hitler was certainly an opportunist but he sure did talk a good game for Christianity and Nazism in the early days, didn't he?

People tend to get real nervous when you start quoting Hitler that he was killing Jews to take revenge for them killing Jesus Christ ...

a reply to: undo

Thanks for the video but I prefer to hear what you have to say on the subject.

So let's summarize. Your answer to my question about what in the Bible would set Christians against Marxism was:

biblical explanation: humans don't appear to be able to correctly implement communism.

And when I questioned if that means the Bible forbids any attempt to make the world a better place and/or discourages humans from trying hard things you said:

it outlines how we should treat each other and that part is not isolated to only the poor - it applies to everyone. in fact, the higher ups are held to an even stricter set of rules (to whom much is given, much is expected), which they never seem to follow but require it from everyone else. i do believe jesus flipped his lid about that one.

SO the Bible forbids Marxism "humans don't appear to be able to correctly implement communism" and further because the Bible "outlines how we should treat each other and that part is not isolated to only the poor"?

I'm not seeing any forbidding there any aspect of Marxism.

Additional note: "to whom much is given, much is expected" is actually a paraphrased quote from the movie Spiderman.

Here's what you're going for from the Bible: "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. " (Matthew 25:30)

a reply to: Gryphon66

okay, i guess i need to spell it out:

the new testament does not condone stealing from other people, particularly their labor/energy. that's called slavery. in fact, jesus taught the end of slavery 2000 years ago but nobody listened.
it discourages being jealous of other people's stuff.
jesus encouraged kindness and charity and frowned on large amounts of wealth (primarily because people with alot of money tend to use it to abuse other people's energy/lives).
he taught honesty, and would've freaked that our gov is taking so much of our labor and wasting it on world domination, when they should've been providing it for quality of life for our citizens first, something they claimed they were going to use it for, when they first asked us to pay it.

that video i linked talks about how morality is legislated to enforce on everyone except the people legislating it. morality, he claimed, has never been enforced universally, but has always had exceptions for those in power. they get to do whatever they want, while we have to live by increasingly more complicated rules/laws.

a reply to: undo

Yes, please spell it out, because I've proven myself so slow on the uptake in our conversations ...

I have to ask you, what New Testament are you reading from?

Because ... well ...

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Ephesians 6:5

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Colossians 3:22

Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

1 Peter 2:18

So, let me get this straight, St. Peter and St. Paul, who were Jesus' Number 1 and 2 guys when he went up, are obviously altogether in favor of slavery, but you're saying that they (and the Bible) is wrong???

Oh, and by the way, Jesus suggested that it was just to pay taxes, or to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

But, let me guess, that doesn't mean what it says either, right?

What does any of that have to do with Marxism, again?

You haven't demonstrated that Marxism advocates theft.

You seem so clear on that, surely you have facts to back you up?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Additional note: "to whom much is given, much is expected" is actually a paraphrased quote from the movie Spiderman.

Luke 12:48

"For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required".

Also quoted extensively by JFK, and Bill Gates.

Spiderman. Pfft. : @@ :

a reply to: Gryphon66

ahead of its time, apparently

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


--

render unto casear = follow the laws where you live, even if they suck ass.

You haven't demonstrated that Marxism advocates theft.

marxism can't be implemented without class struggle. class struggle requires getting people murderously jealous, this results in stealing the belongings of those they are mad at. for example in the soviet union, they would come to a house to exact a payment in grain, etc, and also take their family heirlooms, family photos, anything that wasn't nailed to the floor and even stuff that was nailed to the floor. during the french revolution (which was the first attempt at a socialist type of government), they would hang people in the street if they found they were keeping enough food for their own families.

a reply to: undo

You don't understand much about actual Marxism. I don't mean that to be disrespectful.

You're actually only dealing with the snippets you've gleaned from the news sources you listen to.

Because you're stating that Socialism and Marxism (and Leninism and Stalinism, et. al.) are the same thing.

They are not.

What happened in the French Revolution cannot be Marxism, Marx was born in 1818. He started his political career in 1843.

Reign of Terror, 1793-94.

By the way, he did not invent "Communism" either ... he actually wrote the Manifesto on consignment for a Communist group in London.

May I humbly recommend Marxism as a decent starting place, that is, if you have any desire to understand what you're talking about.

Best,

a reply to: Gryphon66

Marxism would only ever be compatible with Christianity IF every single person living under the system chose to do so voluntarily and complied voluntarily - no force at all. And I'm not talking about being born there so you live there.

I'm talking about being completely happy and voluntarily giving to it of your own will without being compelled through law or any other mechanism.

However, it wouldn't be true Marxism because the inverse would be true - people in that society would be free to produce and keep what they made.

But since everyone is giving freely, no one would ever be too overly prosperous just as since no one is compelled to utter equality, no one would live in a true Marxist state especially as there is respect for a person's property.

True Christian society which will never happen on this earth would be a mix of the two and neither all at once.

a reply to: ketsuko

Marxism, informally, is a philosophical approach to analysis of history and economics (and other areas of concern) based on the works of Karl Marx (and to some extent Fredrich Engels).

Marx's main ideas were the class struggle, dialectical materialism, and the eventual creation of a society free from conflict where resources were freely shared among all members of society who were also all productive according to their abilities.

Jesus talked about the difference in the positions of rulers and servants, that it was possible to move from the bottom to the top of society, and suggested that there was a future kingdom in which all would be equal and equally provided for.

Marxism is not a system of government, and has never truly formed the basis of any government.

The Soviet Union started with a revolutionary council, then progressed from Leninism to Stalinism to an ever increasingly capitalistic society.

And, in my opinion, societies based on Marxism or upon Christianity are hopelessly idealistic and based on false premises, doomed to failure.

I think we may agree after a fashion, right there at the end. Weird huh?

This is almost like the Albert pike ww3 prediction. Muslims destroy Israel then atheist against Christian then rush in the new world order.

a reply to: undo

it's scares me that domionists are trying to take over the government of the usa,

It scares me, too.
Yet, I have a question for you (and by the way, I agree with you that the US needs to BUTT OUT of the Middle East and let them sort it out themselves - which they are going to do anyway).....

I thought you were an Ancient Aliens kind of person - not a Jesus-believer.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: undo

it's scares me that domionists are trying to take over the government of the usa,

It scares me, too.
Yet, I have a question for you (and by the way, I agree with you that the US needs to BUTT OUT of the Middle East and let them sort it out themselves - which they are going to do anyway).....

I thought you were an Ancient Aliens kind of person - not a Jesus-believer.

i think jesus is enki-ea redux.

a reply to: undo

Okay, thanks for that.

I've read the entire thread.

I think you don't understand what Marxism is - it is actually "Jesusism" when it comes down to it. You say you don't want anyone to get hurt - I agree with you, philosophically. But in reality - people are "hurt" every day, by OTHER PEOPLE, directly and indirectly.

You realize that there is enough wealth in this world for every person to have PLENTY - I agree with you. That is Marxism. Yet, you don't want that to happen. What I call "sharing" and caring for our fellow men, you call "stealing."

What you "Christian" types fail to see is how FAR OFF the mark you all are when you equate social justice - Marxism - with "Evil", when Marxism is what Jesus wanted, and taught.

You see, why should a "rich" person care if their wealth is redistributed if they are guaranteed that by doing so that THEY THEMSELVES will never "want"? As in: If you want to live among us, come on in; you will work and share in the products of our collective labor and never be left out in the cold or starved. We got your back.

But no - to you, it's "stealing". Maybe I don't understand you correctly. This is rather a drift from the OP topic, though - ISIS are madmen. Madmen need to be removed from civilized society. Those assholes don't care WHO they kill - supposedly Ms Mueller and Mr Foley DID 'convert' - and they were still killed.

ISIS's rampage is a symptom of the extremely unhealthy mindset of ill-educated bullies. Dominionists who are calling for war are NO BETTER. Israel is a disgrace to the 1st world. The US military/industrial complex is a runaway train - and 'religious sects' are not "races of people" anymore.

I'm becoming an isolationist more and more. I'm sick of the behavior of humans.
Yesterday I saw 107 photos of animals caring for one another (the Weather Channel) - lemurs atop the heads of dogs, dogs nursing baby tigers and, and cats cuddling ducklings. A joey whose mom was killed on the highway adopted by a dog - another dog holding a bottle for a rejected lamb to drink from - a cow offering her milk to sheep. A gorilla playing with a kitten. A cat adopting a baby squirrel. And many, many others.

Not to mention other stories about dogs trying to save their owners from a fire; cats keeping an abandoned infant warm; elephants traveling from miles and miles away when they 'got wind' of one of their human caretakers having died in a distant place and trekked to the place he used to live. Just this morning I saw a video of a tortoise coming across another tortoise who had turned upside down...he turned his fallen 'brother' over, saving his life.

If people were HALF as decent as animals, the world would be a much better place. In fact, the older I get, the more I don't care to be around people at all - I am happy with my handful of humans I TRULY love, and my animals.

That said, I freely admit I care MORE about the animals who are abused, neglected, maimed, exploited and tortured than I do about the starving children - and I care very much about the starving children. I care about the pods of whales found dead on distant beaches - about the bees who have been all but destroyed by human carelessness.

I blame ADULT HUMANS for what is happening to abused, neglected, starving children - AND what has happened to those animals - AND what has happened to our planet.

Do I want a peaceful world? You bet I do. Am I against slaughter and war? Absolutely. Am I a Marxist at heart? Yep.
But to be honest, I have lost my faith that Humans can EVER rise to the dignity of non-human animals. Humans - as a whole - pretty much SUCK.

We are wired to live in SMALL communities that are self-sustaining. THAT is what we need to return to.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Did Jesus teach about central banks and credit controls?

Or heavily progressive or graduated income taxes?

|*Or Anything Else?*|

a reply to: xuenchen

Did Jesus teach about central banks and credit controls?

Or heavily progressive or graduated income taxes?

Uh, yes, he did. Money-changers, anyone? Greed? Exploitation?

Marxism is not Communism.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: xuenchen

Did Jesus teach about central banks and credit controls?

Or heavily progressive or graduated income taxes?

Uh, yes, he did. Money-changers, anyone? Greed? Exploitation?

Marxism is not Communism.

Is there a Marx manifesto?

Look it up for yourself.

Meanwhile, this story about Hawking might pique your interest:

"We are now entering a new phase of what might be called self-designed evolution in which we will be able to change and improve our DNA," he told [the interviewer, Uyanwah].

"Now that we have read the book of life, we can start writing in corrections, to make us more intelligent and better natured."


Uyanwah didn't leave her meeting with Hawking -- which she described as something she'll "never forget" -- without taking the opportunity to ask him what he would change about the human race -- and what virtues he would magnify.

"The human failing I would most like to correct is aggression. It may have had [a] survival advantage in cave man days ... but now it threatens to destroy us all. A major nuclear war would be the end of civilization, and maybe the end of the human race.

"The quality I would most like to magnify is empathy. It brings us together in a peaceful loving state."

edition.cnn.com...

A bunch of long-dead guys talked about this, too. Jesus being one of them; Ghandi, Buddha, Rumi, Krishna being others.

Hawking, by the way, is an ATHEIST.

Sorry, thought better of it.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Look it up for yourself.

It says it's the Communist Manifesto.

Can you show me some quotes from the original manuscripts?