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What ISIS Really Wants

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posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 02:58 PM
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The Atlantic has this nice long piece about who ISIS are, what they are and what they want.



The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it.


This is a scary article that basically lays it out. In the Middle East, we are battling an apocalyptic version of fundamental Islam, and we are being led in this fight by leaders who refuse to even speak its name.



We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger of—and headline player in—the imminent end of the world.


They say these people want jobs, that they just want us to leave them alone, etc., but what it really reflects is that we fail to really understand. They want nothing less than to return us to a 7th century medieval world. Modern considerations don't actually apply. In a way imagine Amish gone terribly wrong and packing AK-47s in their attempts to wipe out the English and you might have a small idea.



There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.

The most-articulate spokesmen for that position are the Islamic State’s officials and supporters themselves. They refer derisively to “moderns.” In conversation, they insist that they will not—cannot—waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers. They often speak in codes and allusions that sound odd or old-fashioned to non-Muslims, but refer to specific traditions and texts of early Islam.


And they are very, very fundamental. Mentally so.



The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.


Some of you wonder why they are attacking other Muslims? It's because they aren't Muslim enough.



Denying the holiness of the Koran or the prophecies of Muhammad is straightforward apostasy. But Zarqawi and the state he spawned take the position that many other acts can remove a Muslim from Islam. These include, in certain cases, selling alcohol or drugs, wearing Western clothes or shaving one’s beard, voting in an election—even for a Muslim candidate—and being lax about calling other people apostates. Being a Shiite, as most Iraqi Arabs are, meets the standard as well, because the Islamic State regards Shiism as innovation, and to innovate on the Koran is to deny its initial perfection. (The Islamic State claims that common Shiite practices, such as worship at the graves of imams and public self-flagellation, have no basis in the Koran or in the example of the Prophet.) That means roughly 200 million Shia are marked for death. So too are the heads of state of every Muslim country, who have elevated man-made law above Sharia by running for office or enforcing laws not made by God.


To purify the world, they are bent on simply slaughtering vast numbers of people, including all the Shi'as and lots of Sunnis in addition to all the other usual kafir.

He goes on to talk about how many Westerners simply can't understand belief at this level, and that scholars haven't helped by trying to push in other factors to blame like poor governance (jobs anyone?) and similar factors. But while he acknowledges that the factors are complex, he also points out that focusing on them to the exclusion of religious ideology reflects another bias - that if religion isn't important anymore in the West, then it surely can't be that important anywhere else, either.



Without acknowledgment of these factors, no explanation of the rise of the Islamic State could be complete. But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesn’t matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes he’s doing so for religious reasons.


And for those who say, "This isn't Islam." May I remind you that this is Islam, very fundamental Islam. The author talks to an expert on the Islamic State who says the following:



According to Haykel, the ranks of the Islamic State are deeply infused with religious vigor. Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. “Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,” Haykel said. “They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.” He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.”


He goes on to liken ISIS to authentic throwbacks to the earliest Muslims of Mohammad's day faithfully replicating those times in history.

Not only that, but ISIS is so sincere in its beliefs that they don't care whom they offend or risk alienating. This has moderated groups like the Wahhabis in the past who have bowed in some part to public opinion. Not ISIS.


This thread has been promoted on the ATS Twitter Feed with the following image:

edit on 18-2-2015 by SkepticOverlord because: added to twitter




posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:03 PM
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Thank you for presenting this article. FINALLY...A liberal/progressive publication which actually GETS ISIS....and isn't afraid to admit it.
About time.

Maybe the other elements of the liberal media will eventually start to come around to reason.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:06 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

I don't trust any western media to report on this issue.

The suggestion that they might "want" something like a job is totally absurd. They want everything including your free will.

This some mighty magic the intelligence community is creating here.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:15 PM
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And this is also about salvation for them. They believe that to not have a caliphate and to not owe allegiance to it is to die in sin meaning proper belief is that all who died without one have quite possibly gone to Muslim hell.



The caliphate, Cerantonio told me, is not just a political entity but also a vehicle for salvation. Islamic State propaganda regularly reports the pledges of baya’a (allegiance) rolling in from jihadist groups across the Muslim world. Cerantonio quoted a Prophetic saying, that to die without pledging allegiance is to die jahil (ignorant) and therefore die a “death of disbelief.” Consider how Muslims (or, for that matter, Christians) imagine God deals with the souls of people who die without learning about the one true religion. They are neither obviously saved nor definitively condemned. Similarly, Cerantonio said, the Muslim who acknowledges one omnipotent god and prays, but who dies without pledging himself to a valid caliph and incurring the obligations of that oath, has failed to live a fully Islamic life. I pointed out that this means the vast majority of Muslims in history, and all who passed away between 1924 and 2014, died a death of disbelief. Cerantonio nodded gravely. “I would go so far as to say that Islam has been reestablished” by the caliphate.


We are also seeing the fullest restoration of what ISIS believes to be pure Shari'a law. It's what a caliphate allows them to do. Remember, they control territory larger than the area of Great Britain in the Middle East now.



Before the caliphate, “maybe 85 percent of the Sharia was absent from our lives,” Choudary told me. “These laws are in abeyance until we have khilafa”—a caliphate—“and now we have one.” Without a caliphate, for example, individual vigilantes are not obliged to amputate the hands of thieves they catch in the act. But create a caliphate, and this law, along with a huge body of other jurisprudence, suddenly awakens. In theory, all Muslims are obliged to immigrate to the territory where the caliph is applying these laws.


And they are seeing waves of people heading to the caliphate. If they believe, it is incumbent upon them to go.

Not only that but these guys are deeply Apocalyptic. They don't care if they live or die, and they truly believe that they are central figures in the End Times to come with major roles to play. I know people worry that Christians work to bring the Apocalypse about but if you want to see real workers at it ... these are your guys. I won't quote it, but basically their magazine is named for a town in Syria that is sort of their version of Megiddo where the armies of Islam will meet the armies of Rome in a final battle -- Dabiq.

If you hear references in their videos of beheadings to Dabiq, that's what it means. They have captured that town and now wait for the armies of the West to meet them there in battle. They are taunting us.



The Prophetic narration that foretells the Dabiq battle refers to the enemy as Rome. Who “Rome” is, now that the pope has no army, remains a matter of debate. But Cerantonio makes a case that Rome meant the Eastern Roman empire, which had its capital in what is now Istanbul. We should think of Rome as the Republic of Turkey—the same republic that ended the last self-identified caliphate, 90 years ago. Other Islamic State sources suggest that Rome might mean any infidel army, and the Americans will do nicely.


We can expect the terror to continue and expand. ISIS believes its foreign policy is to spread itself to states of unbelievers. They will also terrorize with the beheadings and burnings because they believe this will break our will to fight by making us afraid. So, look for more random acts of terror. Someone thank Obama for importaing Syrian "refugees" when this happens.



Choudary took pains to present the laws of war under which the Islamic State operates as policies of mercy rather than of brutality. He told me the state has an obligation to terrorize its enemies—a holy order to scare the # out of them with beheadings and crucifixions and enslavement of women and children, because doing so hastens victory and avoids prolonged conflict.


And there will be no "peace and safety" ... no permanently.



Choudary’s colleague Abu Baraa explained that Islamic law permits only temporary peace treaties, lasting no longer than a decade. Similarly, accepting any border is anathema, as stated by the Prophet and echoed in the Islamic State’s propaganda videos. If the caliph consents to a longer-term peace or permanent border, he will be in error. Temporary peace treaties are renewable, but may not be applied to all enemies at once: the caliph must wage jihad at least once a year. He may not rest, or he will fall into a state of sin.


So basically, in order to combat this, we are going to have to kill it. I don't see any other way. If we don't, it will kill us or consume us ... all of us.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:22 PM
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Hmmmm...who should we believe?



The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic.
Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

www.theatlantic.com...

--or--



"ISIL is not Islamic" --Barack Hussein Obama


edit on 18-2-2015 by IAMTAT because: highlighting



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
The Atlantic has this nice long piece about who ISIS are, what they are and what they want.



The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it.


This is a scary article that basically lays it out. In the Middle East, we are battling an apocalyptic version of fundamental Islam, and we are being led in this fight by leaders who refuse to even speak its name.



We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger of—and headline player in—the imminent end of the world.


They say these people want jobs, that they just want us to leave them alone, etc., but what it really reflects is that we fail to really understand. They want nothing less than to return us to a 7th century medieval world. Modern considerations don't actually apply. In a way imagine Amish gone terribly wrong and packing AK-47s in their attempts to wipe out the English and you might have a small idea.



There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.

The most-articulate spokesmen for that position are the Islamic State’s officials and supporters themselves. They refer derisively to “moderns.” In conversation, they insist that they will not—cannot—waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers. They often speak in codes and allusions that sound odd or old-fashioned to non-Muslims, but refer to specific traditions and texts of early Islam.


And they are very, very fundamental. Mentally so.



The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.


Some of you wonder why they are attacking other Muslims? It's because they aren't Muslim enough.


To purify the world, they are bent on simply slaughtering vast numbers of people, including all the Shi'as and lots of Sunnis in addition to all the other usual kafir.

He goes on to talk about how many Westerners simply can't understand belief at this level, and that scholars haven't helped by trying to push in other factors to blame like poor governance (jobs anyone?) and similar factors. But while he acknowledges that the factors are complex, he also points out that focusing on them to the exclusion of religious ideology reflects another bias - that if religion isn't important anymore in the West, then it surely can't be that important anywhere else, either.



And for those who say, "This isn't Islam." May I remind you that this is Islam, very fundamental Islam. The author talks to an expert on the Islamic State who says the following:



He goes on to liken ISIS to authentic throwbacks to the earliest Muslims of Mohammad's day faithfully replicating those times in history.

Not only that, but ISIS is so sincere in its beliefs that they don't care whom they offend or risk alienating. This has moderated groups like the Wahhabis in the past who have bowed in some part to public opinion. Not ISIS.


This thread has been promoted on the ATS Twitter Feed with the following image:



I actually just got done reading this article not more than 5 minutes ago. I was going to post it but saw you beat me to it. It is, for lack of better wording, scary informative. I highly recommend the dang President read this and see if he STILL thinks jobs for them are a fabulous idea! Someone seriously needs to wake up. In the article they point out how IS sees him as a joke because he is a non-Muslim son of a Muslim.
edit on 2/18/2015 by Anyafaj because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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Agreed about the apocalyptic desires of ISIS. However, modern Christianity is also looking forward to the end times. In fact, one of the primary speculations surround G.W. Bush is that his foreign policy was inspired by a desire to see the Revelations prophecies come true.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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It's as the piece said and as I've been saying for a while, our leaders are confused. They can't understand that anyone could have religious faith in anything to that degree. They can comprehend it for worldly or material things, but not for the esoteric.

They're looking hard for some other reason; something they can bargain with. I don't think they'll find it.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: SkepticOverlord

All right, I'll be brutally honest. As a Christian, I "look forward" to the End Times only because I look forward to the world that if promised after all is said and done. I do not at all look forward to all of the horrific things that must/will happen between now and that time, and I think (although I have no formal numbers) that most Christians can agree with me on that.

There are too many unknowns about the End Times to want them to come. For one thing, there is no way to know for sure what I'll have to deal with if they come, I might be stuck here for a whole show, and while I don't fear dying itself because that's not the end ... I confess to a certain fear of the manner of dying. As ISIS continues to show us, there are many horrifying ways to go, not counting all the long and drawn out natural ways to go.



As a Christian, you'd be nuts if you said you wanted the End Times to come. Although I wouldn't blame you at all for waxing poetic about the Kingdom to come afterward.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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I cannot read or hear anymore garbage on who, what, how "ISIS" (what an insult to the goddess..) is.

People of ATS, I want to make this simple, as the members here put A LOT of internal energy (thought emotion) into these sick human beings.

It DOES NOT matter what ISIS, is. Why? Their are Powerful countries who if we're true world leaders, would of ended ISIS group before it got this ugly.

MY POINT - the powerful nation leaders need ISIS group equipped, driven, with a mission of destruction.

OUR LEADERS NEED ISIS TO MAINTAIN THEIR GLOBALIST GOALS.

It's all a game, anything the masses oF multiple leading nations are exposed too, is meant to be in the game of World Domination. .

ISIS should of been long gone. But everyday media wants us to know they exist. Can we STOP playing stupid and pretending our leaders are honest humans?

QUESTION - who benefits, how, from ISIS and it's on going chaos?

Only the world leaders. It brings a distraction, so they can orchastrate behind the curtian. It brings influential behavior to bring more chaos, the more people are exposed to it.

ITS ALL A FRONT MY FRIENDS. YOUR LEADERS PRCHASTRATED ISIS, AND ALLOW THEM TO KILL.

You have been passified, and your will to act on what is truth is broken. So you listen to this regurgitated # they call news, and spill your emotions and thoughts on useless things that are used AGAINST you.

End of story, it's a front, if it was not useful to the power grabbing globalist, it would Not be.

It's that simple..



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: SkepticOverlord


Agreed about the apocalyptic desires of ISIS. However, modern Christianity is also looking forward to the end times. In fact, one of the primary speculations surround G.W. Bush is that his foreign policy was inspired by a desire to see the Revelations prophecies come true.




Some, not all. Some of us, don't go around and actively look to bring it about. Our attitude is, if it's God's will, it will happen. We may look for the signs, but that may be it. We don't go about trying to cause the signs to occur. Some fundamentalists may, but they're the nutters of the group.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:48 PM
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Well they have no problem using modern AKs and Toyotas. Or did they specifically ONLY mean to return us to 7th century in a legal sense?

Or do they plan to conquer the planet and Then do away with modern technologies, once they have seized the power to do so, by using modern technologies, without which they would not stand a chance? So will they say "thanks to the use of this modern tech, we can now finally get rid of all this modern tech"?



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:52 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

The big picture looks chaotic at present, part of the Middle East going hog-wild and the West, is huddled, biting their fingernails. But that will pass.

The terrorists will eventually lose most of their Toyota pickups one way or another, and the AK-ammo will get hard to find.

The West will not naturally find its balls, but will operate PCly toward what they have in mind for the world and will finally accept that to have the New World Order that they are inching us toward, they will have to kill some bastards. And they will. And they will, as a former Obama official once said, “…not let a good crisis go to waste.”

In their marshalling up the various armies of the modern world to do justice to the bad guys, they will get themselves more aligned on the same page and cooperate better than ever before. All in all, the NWO trend will have solid footing on which to forge ahead.

Really, the only thing to argue over is if this holy war was allowed to fester and become a huge problem for the sake of the inevitable and desired outcome? In other words is it really a gigantic, inspired, “false flag” operation?



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:56 PM
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a reply to: SkepticOverlord

It's about time Bill O'Reily showed up with the "reveal". Admit it. You knew how this was going to end right?

Say, who is engineering this holy war anyway?



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:56 PM
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a reply to: Aliensun

Right about now, I am wishing that I had invested more time studying the state of the world leading up to WWII. What did the world think of Germany and it's bizarre new regime and behavior? How did they respond when Germany began its expansionist adventures?

What did that look like, and did the world have the smug attitude that their economy was so gutted and devastated that there's no way they can last? I mean eventually they'll run out of something ...


edit on 18-2-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:57 PM
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a reply to: SkepticOverlord

I do not think the two are equatable.

The reasons is because most Christians do not have the goal of killing every muslim or non believer.

Many Christians are very ready to kill isis though.

That is why it would be best handled through military action before it gets to the point where everybody is killing everybody.

Waiting only gives them time to grow.

They are presenting us with an unavoidable situation that is best resolved sooner than later.

I think dick cheney and donald rumsfeld just said that isis has wmd's.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 03:58 PM
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a reply to: deadeyedick

No, I don't want to kill them, but I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that this may be inevitable.

It would be easier for all of us if they behaved like Jim Jones.



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 04:15 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

It is a complicated situation because just as not all christians want all muslims dead not all muslims want all christians dead but all is members do want all infedels dead.

The problem i see is that while both want armageddon one group is told to wait for Jesus and the other group believes that by killing the infedels that Jesus will come.

The answer is to dismantle is now before they grow by military action.

A bad scenerio would be to learn that the is is actually supported and funded by secret groups that are pulling the strings and that is why we are not doing anything more than pacifing the illusion that things are being done.

What if we woke up tomorrow to learn that several surrounding countries to is has joined them?

Over nite we would have the most serious problem ever faced on earth.
edit on 18-2-2015 by deadeyedick because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 04:18 PM
link   

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Aliensun

Right about now, I am wishing that I had invested more time studying the state of the world leading up to WWII. What did the world think of Germany and it's bizarre new regime and behavior? How did they respond when Germany began its expansionist adventures?

What did that look like, and did the world have the smug attitude that their economy was so gutted and devastated that there's no way they can last? I mean eventually they'll run out of something ...



If you want to look for parallels between the early appeasement of NAZI Germany and whats happening today...Here is a good place to start:

NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN


Arthur Neville Chamberlain (18 March 1869 – 9 November 1940) was a British Conservative politician who served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from May 1937 to May 1940. Chamberlain is best known for his appeasement foreign policy, and in particular for his signing of the Munich Agreement in 1938...

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Feb, 18 2015 @ 04:28 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko
And ironically, we could probably all share that marvelous, magical kingdom with relative peace and harmony now if every religion put down their animosity and need to be right. I've dreamt of that my whole life and I'm an atheist. Just saying.



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