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First time reading the Quran, My impression

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posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:01 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan



I'm a girl. I have no 'nut' to bust.

To "nut" is to oragasm, last time I checked, a girl can do that. But lets not digress.



You ask for science but then say its useless? Science has proven Noahs Ark didn't happen; Adam and Eve didn't happen; Exodus didn't happen in any manner close to how it's described; and its doubtful that Abraham even existed. And since those things are wrong, then the books that espouse them are highly suspect. It's been discussed here many times on many threads.


I asked for science, because thats what your pedaling, but thought I would also educate you on why it is useless in this matter (i know, so nice of me). Your mention of "Exodus" shows you probably don't know much about the Islamic version, I can agree that it didn't happen how the bible says it, the Quran differs from the bible on the matter and I would put to you that, that is how I say it happened.

As for Noah (pbuh) and his ark, the bible version says the entire world was flooded, which science has ruled out, the Quran says that only a certain region was flooded (as the punishment came to only the people of Noah (pbuh)). Not much debunking going on here so far.

Additionally thank you for providing some links to illustrate what takes place on ATS, i.e: People debate, shocking. Evidently tho it does not provide your stance with any credibility and to be honest it just shows you're adding hot air to your argument.



No. It's exceptionally strong and the fact that the Qu'ran is mostly plagiarized is something that has been written about by many researchers.


You are pretty good at sidestepping the issue.. i asked for examples of plagiarism, not names of people with some intellectual fart they let off. Either come correct or stop wasting my time.

edit on 23-2-2015 by MstWntd because: tense verbs.. general lack of english lol..




posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:37 AM
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a reply to: MstWntd
There was no world wide flood and there was no flood of the just the middle east that covered the mountains during that time period. Adam and Eve have been proven not to have happened. DNA proves both the Bible and the Qu'ran are wrong about time frames and how humanity evolved and developed. There was no Tower of Babel .. or Babli. Different languages developed over different time frames in pockets around the world. David didn't write most of the psalms, in fact some are even found on much older ancient Egyptian monuments to pagan gods. Exodus didn't happen as written and Moses didn't get the 10 commandments from God. This is all proven. The links I provided show this.

The scholar information is not 'intellectual farts'. The work of the intellectual scholars named show well documented information that proves much of Islam, and the Qu'ranic stories, are 'borrowed' from other religions and beliefs. (for example, the running between the hills and throwing stones during pilgrimage come directly from the pagans). There is absolutely no evidence to support that they magically appeared to Muhammad out of the blue.

The off topic personal jabs and snark that are being spewed on this thread are pathetic. Learn to accept that people are going to have a negative impression of ancient religious texts, and with good reason. As I said, if others want to dig through the muck and try to find something that they like, go ahead. It is my opinion that the obvious errors in those books, as well as the bronze age mentality of stoning people to death, as well as the misogynistic life instructions, make it incompatible with a progressive modern society.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 08:55 AM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan

The off topic personal jabs and snark that are being spewed on this thread are pathetic. Learn to accept that people are going to have a negative impression of ancient religious texts, and with good reason. As I said, if others want to dig through the muck and try to find something that they like, go ahead. It is my opinion that the obvious errors in those books, as well as the bronze age mentality of stoning people to death, as well as the misogynistic life instructions, make it incompatible with a progressive modern society.



Are you incapable of conveying your personal opinions without the ill-mannered tone? Or do you have social issues? It's quite easy to discuss a topic, whatever the topic might be, with a little more civility. It was your abrupt tone and lack of grace that clearly lead to the few personal jabs.

If you can't maturely express your opinion on a thread, then don't cry if you are not treated with much respect.



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 09:42 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan



The off topic personal jabs and snark that are being spewed on this thread are pathetic. Learn to accept that people are going to have a negative impression of ancient religious texts, and with good reason. As I said, if others want to dig through the muck and try to find something that they like, go ahead. It is my opinion that the obvious errors in those books, as well as the bronze age mentality of stoning people to death, as well as the misogynistic life instructions, make it incompatible with a progressive modern society.


I would like to address this first, I can't speak for anyone else, but my use of speech directed at you is neither personal, nor vindictive. It is just colourful in highlighting your shortfalls at approaching the topic of religions and in particular Islam. You might note that I put in bold where you talked about your opinion.. This I swear is where you come across as lacking experience and being some what narrow minded. Simply put, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're at fault when you start putting your opinion forward in a debate/critical exchange of ideas (pay attention, I will illustrate this further on).



There was no world wide flood and there was no flood of the just the middle east that covered the mountains during that time period.


You took the Biblical version and tried to tar the Quran with that same opinion you formed. The Quran does not say that the world was flooded, nor does it say that mountains were covered. It uses the word "mountain" to depict the size of the waves, but it at no point does it say these "mountain sized" waves went ahead and covered the mountains. The following link talks about the final part of the story, it has the verses in question and the mountains are only used as description.


www.islamreligion.com...




Adam and Eve have been proven not to have happened. DNA proves both the Bible and the Qu'ran are wrong about time frames and how humanity evolved and developed


I thought I gave you some important information about the philosophy of science? It is (and I use this word seriously) stupid to make statements such as quote above. I can not take you seriously as a person who understands the scientific methodology (note not a personal attack, I am trying to show you how grave your misunderstanding is). However I will humour you (who knows, I might be wrong?), come back to me with evidence of your statements then we can talk this point further.



There was no Tower of Babel .. or Babli.


The Quran does not say "Tower of Babel/Babli", It does have a story of a tower but that is do with the Pharaoh in Egypt, which is far from where Babel/Babli is thought have been. Interestingly enough there is a historical correction the Quran makes in regards to this tower, please do visit this youtube link and watch how the Quran correctly names the chief architect in Egypt, despite the Hieroglyphic language being dead for thousands of years.



David didn't write most of the psalms, in fact some are even found on much older ancient Egyptian monuments to pagan gods. Exodus didn't happen as written and Moses didn't get the 10 commandments from God. This is all proven. The links I provided show this.


I can agree about the David part somewhat, Muslims do believe the previous scriptures to be corrupted by other hands and if some facts were found to be older than, some truths survived the ages (matter of perspective, so its somewhat of a mute point to put forth)

As for the Moses (pbuh), "proven" and "links provided" part, sorry but weak sauce, I am open to facts, backed up with evidence, something to challenge my faith, mind, etc but I will not take your opinion as gospel.




The scholar information is not 'intellectual farts'. The work of the intellectual scholars named show well documented information that proves much of Islam, and the Qu'ranic stories, are 'borrowed' from other religions and beliefs. (for example, the running between the hills and throwing stones during pilgrimage come directly from the pagans).

It is either an intellectual fart by them, or by you to put them forth when I asked for specifics regarding your accusation of plagiarism. Which is it?


There is absolutely no evidence to support that they magically appeared to Muhammad out of the blue.


Cute, but I think that statement is an argument from ignorance, lack of evidence is not evidence to the contrary.



Different languages developed over different time frames in pockets around the world.


Careful now, you are in agreement with Muslims on that point
. I left this to the end to say its better to come and discuss on commonality rather than what is divisive, this is how Muslims are instructed to be with the Jews and Christians.


quran.com...


Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."



I think that approach between us would be better, no?

edit on 23-2-2015 by MstWntd because: quote mistake.. shi happens..

edit on 23-2-2015 by MstWntd because: completing a sentence like G



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 07:08 PM
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a reply to: MstWntd
Qur'an and science? It says the earth is laid out like a carpet. But they say the word dahaha means ostrich egg but the earth is not the shape of an ostrich egg. The earth is an oblate spheroid while the ostrich egg is a prolate spheroid.

He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; Qur'an 20:53



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 02:15 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan
Yet my poll showed otherwise. Additionally ATS history clearly shows otherwise. You have been a member as long as me and you frequent the threads I do. To deny that there hasn't been a substantial amount Christians on ATS that believe Jesus to be a distinct and wholly separate entity from god is dishonest.

Now it's not relevant to my point since my point is about what Christians believe, but I can offer multiple scriptural support in the idea even the Bible suggests Jesus and 'god' are separate entities.

To be clear. Our discussion was a result of this..

"Show me a Muslim who worships Jesus as God Incarnate"

I am saying that there is a substantial amount of Christians that do not view Jesus as god incarnate, but in fact a wholly separate entity.
edit on 24-2-2015 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 05:35 AM
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originally posted by: celticdog
a reply to: MstWntd
Qur'an and science? It says the earth is laid out like a carpet. But they say the word dahaha means ostrich egg but the earth is not the shape of an ostrich egg. The earth is an oblate spheroid while the ostrich egg is a prolate spheroid.

He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; Qur'an 20:53





Earth shaped as an Egg

Ok you are nearly correct about some of the translations and meanings. To correct you a bit further, the old arabic word dahaha is still used today by Libyans in reference to eggs/ or egg shaped. The Libyans call one egg ''Dahia'' which is derived from the root word Daha (also Yadhu and Dahwa). Daha means spherical in nature or egg shaped.

Now for the word Dahaha:

Daha means spherical in shape or egg.

the extra 'ha' at the end means to flatten out or expanse, or to roll out.

Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geospherical in shape, like the shape of the earth. But compressed so as to expand at the Equator (flattened out at the tops/ ends).

Imagine an Ostrich egg shaped pillow, and you compressed the top and bottom parts with your hands.

Now to compare this with modern science - an oblate sphere is where the polar axis are shorter in diameter than the equatorial axis. Which is what dahaha is meant to describe - an ostrich egg that has been compressed at the tops/ ends (thus creating a bulge on the equator). It does not mean just egg shaped which would be a prolate sphere (elongated) or Daha, where the equator is smaller in diameter as compared with the polar axis.


Why do arabic words have a few meanings? Because arabic is a powerful, poetic language where one word can have multiple meanings depending on the context. This is the same for all semetic languages.


Having said all of the above, understand that the time period when these revelations were sent down required notions and analogies that could be easily understood by the people of those times. And Arabic has a poetic way of doing that, where the words strongly describe the nature of things, not through words like in western languages, but more like painting a picture.


Earth made out as a carpet


“And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out).” [Al-Qur’an 71:19]


But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says:


“That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads.” [Al-Qur’an 71:20]


A similar message is repeated in Surah TaHa:


“He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)....” [Al-Qur’an 20:53]


The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.
edit on 24-2-2015 by ISeekTruth101 because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-2-2015 by ISeekTruth101 because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-2-2015 by ISeekTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 05:39 AM
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a reply to: celticdog

To start with, lets look at the 3 fundamental building blocks here...

Science:
Science is the observation of a specific set of data and then to conclude a general consensus. This conclusion is open to change at any point and this is how science progresses

Hence by definition science cannot disprove what it can not observe. I love science, it is but one of the tools we can use in our life to progress and learn.

Do you see how science is quite useless at disproving "Adam and Eve", God and even if the computer I am typing on really exists or is it all in my mind, while my brain is being probed by aliens?

Knowledge:
Knowledge we have is vastly underpinned by testimony of people we trust. e.g: how do you know you are your mothers biological son? Because she said so, your father says so, the doctor might say so, some paper says so.

To the point, how can you say the world is round? have you gone in to space and seen it? what if tomorrow google gets flooded with pics for a hexagon shaped earth? because really all you have is pictures. There are 3 evidences I know of that prove to me without testimony that the earth is round

1) There is a maths equation
I dont know how to get the numbers needed for this, dont know what the equation is, just heard about it

2) If you go high enough, you will see the curvature of the earth.
I hate heights, eyesight is weak, wont get a chance to do this anyway

3) The alternation in the day and night
This is logical reasoning, doesnt require me to even leave my comfort zone, it just prompts me to think upon what is readily available. Incidentally this proof of concept is given to me in the Quran as well...


corpus.quran.com...


Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding.



Language:
You have any idea how limited the english language is once compared to arabic? OK limited might be the wrong word, how about fundamentally different. For example the more you want to describe something the more words you have to add to a sentence in english. But the arabs? no these guys value those who can say what they want in completeness and in the least amount of words used. That is why the Quran is a linguistic miracle observed in the arabic language.

OK so in english the word egg means, well egg. something that contains something that has the potential to become life, hence when talk about an easter egg, we say it is "egg shaped", not that it is an egg per say. But if you meet someone that doesnt know what an egg looks like, you will have to describe to them using other words such as "a sphere oblongated at the top end" (for example), further more have you seen the eggs that human women have?.. they are nothing like the eggs that chickens have.. but are both called eggs in english.. because they are carrying the potential life.

However in Arabic the word "Dahaha" is the description of the shape and not of what the egg itself is (which carries something with the potential of life). "Daha" is commonly used to describe eggs because this word means "sphere with an oblongated end" but "Dahaha" means "round shaped, spherical, spread out".

The fundamental difference between "egg" and "Dahaha" is the extra "ha" which compounds more meaning to the word "Daha".. you really should have picked this up in your research, it's quite simple.

Trust me the arabic, urdu, punjabi and other eastern languages are immensely more rich and poetic, than english, this is an observation I have made first hand being multilingual and something you should be aware of before reading throwing around accusations of a book that has an acid test for authenticity and stood the test of time, men better than you and I have tired to find flaws in this book, but have always failed.



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 05:43 AM
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originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
Yet my poll showed otherwise.

Your poll only gave these as choices -

Jesus Christ was just a human man.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. A separate but divine being.
Jesus Christ is God himself. Made manifest in human form.
Jesus Christ never existed.
Other.

Given those choices, I would have to pick #2 as well. It comes the closest. You didn't give as a choice the correct response for Christians to pick - Jesus is true God and true man, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Separate, yet One in Being with the Father.

This is what the VAST majority of Christians profess as their faith at their churches. It's part of their creed.


I am saying that there is a substantial amount of Christians that do not view Jesus as god incarnate, but in fact a wholly separate entity.

Christian belief is that Jesus IS separate, and yet One with the Father. True man and true God. Part of The Holy Trinity. There are some who do not believe that, of course. But the vast majority have that as part of their belief system. I listed off the denominations that believe this. There is nothing 'dishonest' about it. That's the belief.

The Holy Trinity


The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold") defines God as three consubstantial persons, expressions, or hypostases: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is.

According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths, there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and "each is God, whole and entire". Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are "from the Father", "through the Son" and "in the Holy Spirit"


Show me a Muslim or a Jew who worships Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God, and I'll show you a Muslim or a Jew who worships the same God as the Christians. ETA .. I should remind you that I didn't say one was right and one was wrong. I'm just saying DIFFERENT.


edit on 2/24/2015 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 08:17 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

Do you have any plans to talk further and reply to my post? I was feeling like there was going to be a breakthrough..



edit on 24-2-2015 by MstWntd because: correction

edit on 24-2-2015 by MstWntd because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 08:37 AM
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a reply to: MstWntd

There is nothing left to discuss. The topic is 'impressions upon reading the Qu'ran'. I gave my impressions. It's misogynistic and it holds people down. It is unforgiving and extreme. It is not an acceptable way to live (stoning people to death? NO!) It's the claims of divine visitation by a man who gave no proof of his claims. It has many proven errors (as does the O.T.). You reject the science that proves them (Qu'ran and O.T.) wrong. So there is no discussion to be had.

You have a favorable impression. That's your choice.
I have a very unfavorable impression. That's also my choice.

This topic has been exhausted.



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 09:17 AM
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This topic has been exhausted.


I laugh at this statement, among many others.

There is an emerging trend of cherry picking going on, not just from scriptures — where verses are quoted entirely out of context and regurgitated — but from ATS posts/ replies too.

People just do not want to take the time to understand the teachings of scripture, and attempt to interpret them correctly. So why are you wasting your time in this forum? To slander others?

If you want to discuss impressions on a book, then READ IT ALL! And if you really have energy, study it... then bring your opinions here. That's how ATS should work in general.

If you want to get top marks for effort:

1. Quote the verse
2. Understand the context
3. Check the translation
4. Share your thoughts

A few posters here have done that so - good job! I appreciate the constructive debate.
edit on 24-2-2015 by ISeekTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 09:24 AM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: MstWntd

There is nothing left to discuss. The topic is 'impressions upon reading the Qu'ran'. I gave my impressions. It's misogynistic and it holds people down. It is unforgiving and extreme. It is not an acceptable way to live (stoning people to death? NO!) It's the claims of divine visitation by a man who gave no proof of his claims. It has many proven errors (as does the O.T.). You reject the science that proves them (Qu'ran and O.T.) wrong. So there is no discussion to be had.

You have a favorable impression. That's your choice.
I have a very unfavorable impression. That's also my choice.

This topic has been exhausted.


ooh, you're coming back to opinions while we are in an exchange of critical talks.. that is not mature.. and for you to say the Quran has many proven errors and not provide me ONE is a joke..

Honestly, you tried to disprove the flood of Noah (pbuh) using Biblical context, when I corrected you on the matter in terms of the Islamic context, you clearly ran off without either countering what I said or retracting what you said.. poor show indeed..

You tried to pedal science as something that disproves "Adam and Eve".. at which point I indicated that science can not address such a thing, because it is not observable.. those that say it can, clearly dont understand the philosophy and methodology of science.. at which point it is difficult to take them seriously.. however I did say please bring your evidence and we will check it out.. i could be wrong, but who knows?

I was hoping to take this further than just "i say this.. you say that..", but if your evidence only amounts to that level of exchange.. then you should realise you don't have enough evidence and to formulate an opinion is rather premature..

To conclude..the topic isn't exhausted, your evidence is and is found to be lacking when measured..in addition to your debating skillings, approach and general attitude to the topic..
edit on 24-2-2015 by MstWntd because: dropping apostrophe bomb's



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 09:28 AM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: MstWntd

It's misogynistic and it holds people down.

This topic has been exhausted.



Prove it by quoting all verses that include or relate to women in the Quran. Back your opinions up. Then we can REALLY exhaust the topic.



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 02:28 PM
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a reply to: MstWntd
ok fair enough, I give you that English is not the best of languages and I concede that point because I know nothing of Arabic.

I have another point since I am going by the English translation of the Quran. You keep saying the bible is corrupt and the Quran has never been changed and I haven't used the right version of the Quran.

Quran 5:47 Sahih International
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

another version saheeh international which says the same thing
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

I don't know what version this is.
Let the people of the Evangel judge by what Allah has sent down in it. Those who do not judge by what Allah has sent down —it is they who are the transgressors.

I don't what version this is either
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what has been revealed in it by God. And those who do not judge in accordance with what God has revealed are transgressors.

Another version ....And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

one more
And we cause Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and we gave him the Gospel which contained guidance and light, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and guidance and admonition for the God-fearing.

When was the bible corrupted? Because in all these versions good or bad all say the same thing that they are judged by what Allah revealed in the bible/Gospel/Torah.

Now here are the verses that say the bible is corrupted as per what Allah has said. I am going to go by the noble version of the Quran.
Chapter 5:13-14 So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.
And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

Chapter 6:91
And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, " Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.

Quran 6:34 no can alter the words of Allah
And certainly were messengers denied before you, but they were patient over [the effects of] denial, and they were harmed until Our victory came to them. And none can alter the words of Allah . And there has certainly come to you some information about the [previous] messengers.


So my question again is when was the bible corrupted since Allah revealed truth in it. The bible says of a coming Messiah AKA Jesus which you claim is one of your prophets that comes down through the line of David.
And if the word of Allah can't be changed and he revealed the truth in it then the bible is not corrupted as you say.
Quran 2:87
And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

The bible is the history of Jews supposedly falling in and out of favour with god and the lessons learned. But the Quran is contradicting itself say it is corrupt when it is the word of Allah too.......Then I have another point. There are many versions of the Quran. Then as soon as Mohammed died the Muslims split up Just like many religions have done once their leader/founder has passed on.



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 06:21 AM
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a reply to: celticdog

Celticdog, my friend you are putting across a decent point, along with some laughable and silly mistakes (which isn't your fault).

You see, the Bible has conflated the word "version" with the word "translation" and I believe that is where your difficulty is coming from. Basically the Bibles approach to translation is littered with additions and removals (hence corruption of the original text, by any academic standard), which then forces them to provide iterations of versions.

The Quran has no such issue, it was (according to my reality) revealed by Jibreel (pbuh) to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and then (according to commonly established fact), noted down on parchments, memorised by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and companions. This was then standardised to one dialect of Arabic, this process of standardisation was conducted by 30 companions who had A) memorised the Quran as it was directly from the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) B) Cross verified each verse with each other.

For you to apply the word version instead of a translation when you're talking about the Quran is (at its very best) stupidity or (at its very worse) complete dishonesty.

Now, I'll pay you to the compliment that you know the difference between version and translation, so rather than provide an example I'll address your points.



You keep saying the bible is corrupt and the Quran has never been changed and I haven't used the right version of the Quran.


Yes the Bible is corrupted, as I have shown you before and no I have never said you didnt use the right version of the Quran.. that is a devilish mix of truth and lie if I have ever seen one.

OK, looks like I do need to give you an example of the difference between a version and a translation

In Urdu there is a word "khoti" which means "female donkey" (good translation), some might just say it means "donkey" (poor translation), an idiot would come along and say "donkey and mule" (introduced an addition, creating a new version), a complete idiot would come along and say "Jesus said he was the begotten son and wanted to be worshiped" i mean "just mule" which is a newer version to the extent that it has lost all original meaning.

As for your main point (the actual good stuff in your post when I look past the white noise you did with the word version):

Note, in Christianity, they have the Gospel according to Mark, Matthew and some other anonymous historians. But there is no Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) himself. This Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) is what the Quran is talking about when it says "Injeel". So please do not confuse the writings of men as the Injeel/Gospel the Quran talks about. This brings me back to the earliest advice I gave you, when I said please read tafsir ibn kathir along side the Quran to get the best understanding possible.

Going on to the O.T, this was gathered and compiled some 4000-5000 years after Moses (pbuh) was to have been delivered the message. A) notice how the long the time period is and B) in the last book of the O.T Deuteronomy, it talks about Moses (pbuh) dying and being buried.. evidently the O.T has no connection in being the words of Moses (pbuh) or God... hence corrupted text by the hands of man to mislead mankind...

The below video explains the O.T is not the work of Moses (pbuh) or God better than I can.



edit on 25-2-2015 by MstWntd because: cosmetics

edit on 25-2-2015 by MstWntd because: missed a word



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 12:47 PM
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originally posted by: MstWntd
a reply to: celticdog

Celticdog, my friend you are putting across a decent point, along with some laughable and silly mistakes (which isn't your fault).

You see, the Bible has conflated the word "version" with the word "translation" and I believe that is where your difficulty is coming from. Basically the Bibles approach to translation is littered with additions and removals (hence corruption of the original text, by any academic standard), which then forces them to provide iterations of versions.

The Quran has no such issue, it was (according to my reality) revealed by Jibreel (pbuh) to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and then (according to commonly established fact), noted down on parchments, memorised by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and companions. This was then standardised to one dialect of Arabic, this process of standardisation was conducted by 30 companions who had A) memorised the Quran as it was directly from the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) B) Cross verified each verse with each other.

For you to apply the word version instead of a translation when you're talking about the Quran is (at its very best) stupidity or (at its very worse) complete dishonesty.

Now, I'll pay you to the compliment that you know the difference between version and translation, so rather than provide an example I'll address your points.



You keep saying the bible is corrupt and the Quran has never been changed and I haven't used the right version of the Quran.


Yes the Bible is corrupted, as I have shown you before and no I have never said you didnt use the right version of the Quran.. that is a devilish mix of truth and lie if I have ever seen one.

OK, looks like I do need to give you an example of the difference between a version and a translation

In Urdu there is a word "khoti" which means "female donkey" (good translation), some might just say it means "donkey" (poor translation), an idiot would come along and say "donkey and mule" (introduced an addition, creating a new version), a complete idiot would come along and say "Jesus said he was the begotten son and wanted to be worshiped" i mean "just mule" which is a newer version to the extent that it has lost all original meaning.

As for your main point (the actual good stuff in your post when I look past the white noise you did with the word version):

Note, in Christianity, they have the Gospel according to Mark, Matthew and some other anonymous historians. But there is no Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) himself. This Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) is what the Quran is talking about when it says "Injeel". So please do not confuse the writings of men as the Injeel/Gospel the Quran talks about. This brings me back to the earliest advice I gave you, when I said please read tafsir ibn kathir along side the Quran to get the best understanding possible.

Going on to the O.T, this was gathered and compiled some 4000-5000 years after Moses (pbuh) was to have been delivered the message. A) notice how the long the time period is and B) in the last book of the O.T Deuteronomy, it talks about Moses (pbuh) dying and being buried.. evidently the O.T has no connection in being the words of Moses (pbuh) or God... hence corrupted text by the hands of man to mislead mankind...

The below video explains the O.T is not the work of Moses (pbuh) or God better than I can.





And many different sects of different understandings thanks to wiki cite.
Sunni:The largest sect.
Shia:The second largest.
Sufism:The next one.
And there is others.


The Quran has lots of changes through different translations, that even has different sect of Muslims.

Examples of changes and different changes.
Sahih International: [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

Pickthall: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

Yusuf Ali: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Shakir: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

Muhammad Sarwar: He told Jesus, "I will save you from your enemies, raise you to Myself, keep you clean from the association with the disbelievers, and give superiority to your followers over the unbelievers until the Day of Judgment. On that day you will all return to Me and I shall resolve your dispute.

Mohsin Khan: And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Quran] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute."

Arberry: When God said, 'Jesus, I will take thee to Me and will raise thee to Me and I will purify thee of those who believe not. I will set thy followers above the unbelievers till the Resurrection Day. Then unto Me shall you return, and I will decide between you, as to what you were at variance on.



posted on Feb, 25 2015 @ 04:30 PM
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a reply to: MstWntd

There is no mention of the book the gospel of Jesus. There are many apocryphal books but they are kept out of the bible because they had gnostic concepts. Even thought Paul might be considered gnostic.

I agree that the Pentateuch is written in the third person. If god can't communicate with his creation through his word this begs the question what is his word. As you say the old testament is not connected to Moses or god then this questions the story of Abraham and Jesus

Then the question is who wrote the books and was there a Moses.

Consider the case of Sargon’s birth. Legend has it that Sargon was placed in a reed basket and sent down the river by his mother. He was rescued by Aqqi, who then adopted him as his own son. That sounds a lot like the story of Moses in Exodus 2. And Sargon lived about 800 years before Moses was born. So the Moses baby sent down the river only to be rescued and adopted story must have been borrowed from Sargon, right?


From India there was the Hindu myth when Kali gave birth to the Sun God and placed him in a basket of rushes on the Ganges.

There is an Egyptian model for the myth of Moses in Heracles of Canopus

The Parting of the Waters, as attributed to both Kali crossing the Ganges and Isis.

* Mother Rhea striking water from a rock.

* She had also given Law tablets on a Holy mountain.

Many of these stories were changed to make it their own like the flood story. Just like in the Quran, stories changed and claimed to be the true one. So what to believe or maybe believe none at all. Since the Quran was the last book out of that time period and Mohammed heard all these stories, I would say he put his own twist to it. Like Jesus speaking as a baby, making clay birds come to life and making Judas look like Jesus so he was the one that was crucified.

It all has a myth, legend feel to the stories just like Greek mythology.



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 11:53 AM
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a reply to: Created

For you to push the agenda of the Quran having changes after i have provided you with the process of how it was originated and then strictly standardised in accordance to authority provided by the source itself, is just either a clear depiction of your attempts to defame the integrity of the Quran or you are fundamentally unset when it comes to processing information. In either case I am quite disheartened to talk with you.. but I'll see how this continues..



And many different sects of different understandings thanks to wiki cite.
Sunni:The largest sect.
Shia:The second largest.
Sufism:The next one.
And there is others.


Yes there are different sects with different understanding.. for example I write "1 + 1 = 2", You might understand me as saying "11 is equal to 2".. but that doesn't mean there's different versions of what I write.. that means theres different understanding according to certain people..



The Quran has lots of changes through different translations, that even has different sect of Muslims.

If they are changes in translations then that does not mean the Quran has changes.. that means that the translations have changs.. which makes sense because A) a persons understanding of Arabic and English might (actually most definitely) differ from translator to translator and B) The language changes with time, so a translation now wont be the same as a translation 100 years ago..

This does not mean that the Quran has changed, there is no two Qurans that contain a difference in Arabic once you compare them.. for you to try and put this point forward in translations of the Quran is intellectual dishonesty..

In all citations you mentioned there is no difference in message, context, or meaning. The only difference is use of language and that too is not the Arabic language in which the Quran originates in

What your doing is a classic example of clutching at the straw man.. its either that or I have to assume you have a primary school understanding of the English language..




edit on 26-2-2015 by MstWntd because: correction



posted on Feb, 26 2015 @ 12:06 PM
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I agree that the Pentateuch is written in the third person. If god can't communicate with his creation through his word this begs the question what is his word. As you say the old testament is not connected to Moses or god then this questions the story of Abraham and Jesus

Then the question is who wrote the books and was there a Moses.


Earlier on you mixed a truth with a lie.. and i said that is devilish.. that is what appears to be the case with both O.T and N.T.. the truth has been mixed with a lot of lies.. you would know how effective it can be in misleading people are you were employing the same tactics..



Consider the case of Sargon’s birth. Legend has it that Sargon was placed in a reed basket and sent down the river by his mother. He was rescued by Aqqi, who then adopted him as his own son. That sounds a lot like the story of Moses in Exodus 2. And Sargon lived about 800 years before Moses was born. So the Moses baby sent down the river only to be rescued and adopted story must have been borrowed from Sargon, right?


From India there was the Hindu myth when Kali gave birth to the Sun God and placed him in a basket of rushes on the Ganges.

There is an Egyptian model for the myth of Moses in Heracles of Canopus

The Parting of the Waters, as attributed to both Kali crossing the Ganges and Isis.

* Mother Rhea striking water from a rock.

* She had also given Law tablets on a Holy mountain.

Many of these stories were changed to make it their own like the flood story. Just like in the Quran, stories changed and claimed to be the true one. So what to believe or maybe believe none at all. Since the Quran was the last book out of that time period and Mohammed heard all these stories, I would say he put his own twist to it. Like Jesus speaking as a baby, making clay birds come to life and making Judas look like Jesus so he was the one that was crucified.

It all has a myth, legend feel to the stories just like Greek mythology.


This is neither here nor there.. I dont believe Jesus (pbuh) to be God or anything.. I believe him (in his own words) to be a man appointed by Allah to do miraculous by Allah.. Yes I believe Jesus (pbuh) to be of a virgin birth.. but I also believe that earlier messengers preached the coming of Jesus (pbuh).. so naturally some would use this to their advantage..



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